Quote from lalathegreat :

fact still remains, its incorrect and it should not be that way.

Well you could say the same about tyre contact patch calculations, the way the tyres heat and cool, the combining of lateral and longitudinal forces, aero physics, smoothness and non variation of road surfaces, implementation of engine performance simulations, vehical impact simulation (collision detection), damage modeling, etc etc etc....

If everything had to be perfect and fully correct under all circustances before being implemented in this alpha (not yet complete) racing simulation then we would have to wait for LFS to be fully complete and finished (i.e. S3) before we could use it

LFS is a work in progress, that means the implementation of some things WILL be incomplete. But will be developed further as time goes on. When incomplete things have been implemented in the past as they have been with the clutch it is because it was deemed that it adds more to the sim than it subtracts at that particular point in time.

From what I have seen from at least the long term supporters of LFS is that they see the current clutch (even with its weekness) is worth having even in this unfinished state as it does add more to the sim than it detracts from it. Not everyone will agree with this but such is life

Personaly I quite enjoy being apart of the development process and am grateful to be able to use LFS before it is complete, rather than wait another few years before it is released as a finished product correct in every respect.

Quote from lalathegreat :

i can't help but think if this was another sim that everyone would be on the developers case about canned effects.

Any simulation no matter how good or bad is an approximation of rl
Both simulation by mathematic modeling and by lookup tables have there shortcommings, no one with any sort of knowledge on the subject would deny that

Mathematical modelling though is often desired above lookup tables as it is far more prdictable in nature within a sim. This doesn't mean it will be more accurate in every circumstance and no one that I am aware of is trying to say that the clutch in LFS is exactly like real life or in some circumstances even remotely like real life

What the suporters of the clutch are saying is that it is a step in the right direction and better than not having the clutch modeled at all. It works effectively in race conditions and that is what counts.
It will no doubt be refined as LFS progress, and I'm sure will change once drive trains can be damaged etc.

Quote from Blackout :

The sole purpose of speedometer in a rally car, is to help the driver stay within the speed limits so the police doesnt' have to pull you over, and put you in jail when you are driving down to services or the next stage.

LOL and even then they don't always use it

The other complexity to Aussies is that most times if they abuse you they actually think your a good bloke that can be abit hard for some to comprehend lol

I'd offer but I'm really not on LFS enough to warrant it, I can get on the forums far more than I can get on LFS

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 27 Dec 2007, 03:16.

Quote from hughesie89 :

nah they just need a dictionary

Not quite right in LFS speak it should be:

Mate-friend (m8)
Barbie-Outdoor stove (I miss the days when it was a 44gal drum cut in half and a 3mm steel plate )
Kangaroo-strange bouncy creature (hopping dog)
38degrees- hot day (nah 44 deg is hot )
Western Australia- unknown origin (wrong again its the only place to be )
strewth-...shit (does anyone really use that word still I haven't heard it for 20 years)

As to a new server in Aust, best of luck with it. If it is every running road cars I'll be sure to pop in. Oh and please please don't set it to all cars

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 27 Dec 2007, 03:11.

Quote from Anathema :

Wow. Does this guy have any fear?

Yes he does the fear of being second best

If you had of asked me a few days ago I would of said "that's an outrage and discrimination" but now I say "I want the option to drive only against other clutch and shift users who are interested in driving as they would irl"

Oh another server side option I'd like to see is being able to set a required setup or limit setup options to certain paramaters as a server option

Yes I did get a G25 also Jtbo my wife has even encouraged me to build a racing frame also hmm just have to convince her about projector now and I'm set LOL

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 27 Dec 2007, 00:04.

Quote from Mattesa :

LFS with brake fade... Now that would be cruel and realistic punishment.

Yes irl that is always in back of drivers mind if you watch footwork of any of the V8Supercar drivers they always check for brake pressure before each braking zone every corner!

Quote from JTbo :

Luckily there is option to use on server, set force cockpit mode on and there won't be problem, others can leave it off and enjoy what view they prefer, not a big problem.

Yes but I also want an server option for forced wheel/clutch/shifter users now too for the similar reasons

Ok lets do some research

Quote :

Clutch problems can occur at almost any mileage and for a wide variety of reasons. When the clutch pedal is released and the clutch disc starts to rub against the flywheel and pressure plate, it generates friction and heat. This helps absorb the shock loading that would otherwise jolt the drivetrain every time the transmission was put into gear or shifted. A little slippage under these conditions is a good thing because it helps dampen loads that might otherwise damage gears, U-joints and CV joints.

Quote :

The worst thing any driver can do is ride the clutch. Slipping the clutch excessively when starting out or when creeping along in traffic sends the temperature of the clutch soaring. If the facings get too hot, they may start to burn giving off an odor similar to burnt toast. If the clutch isn't given a chance to cool, the disc may be ruined along with the flywheel and/or pressure plate.

Source: http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf40459.htm

Quote :

Excessive heat can cause the diaphragm to loose its gripping power - possibly due to a driver "riding the clutch" to excess

Source: http://www.indiacar.com/infobank/clutch.htm

Imo it's very realistic for the road going cars (i.e. mimimal race preped) to experience clutch slip and the effects of heat induced slip with overly aggressive driving or deliberate riding of the clutch. The fully race preped cars on the other hand should have much sturdier cluthces install and therefore exhibit a lot less tendency to overheat the clutch, but also should be alot harsher and less forgiving to drive.

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 26 Dec 2007, 14:15.

You probably should have posted this in one of the many threads on this subject already started in the last week

As I've said in another thread, I don't think you will find that the clutch as it is currently is supposed to represent a real clutch in every circumstance. It just needs to approximate a working clutch in race conditions.

For me at least I think it is pretty good in race conditions as I virtually have zero problems with it on a momo or G25 wheel If you are then I suggest it is because of bad habits formed in the game prior to patch Y. Just as it is easy to overdrive cars in LFS (in respect to grip limit) without realising it because of lack of G forces it is also very easy to use more revs and mismatch the clutch to revs due to lack of feedback you would get in real life.

And in rl you dont have a nice little gauge to tell you how hot your clutch is, your only feedback is a not very pleseant smell if you have cooked it which is probably equivelant to well into the red in LFS.

I do agree that the clutch looses some of its effectiveness a bit too quick though, at least in the low powered road cars, but its acceptable in its current form as I'm sure it will be refined as LFS progresses

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 26 Dec 2007, 09:23.

Those that feel there should be aids like blip on downshift for mouse and keyboard users, I beg to differ

I've used an xbox controller in the past then a momo wheel and just now have got a G25

Which do I consider the easiest to use? They xbox controller by far as no setup time just jump online and play.

If you have a wheel and use sequential gear changes then I'd say you have an advantage over others in that it's easy to be consistently fast.

If you are using a clutch and H gated shifter then there is no advantage as you have to do heel toe to get equivelant lap times that opens you up to making alot more mistakes in the course of a race and imo requires alot more skill than without manual clutching or for that matter any other method of controlling cars in LFS. So much so I'd actually like to see servers for clutch and shifter users only

Would I go back to the momo or xbox controller? No way! Why because it is just so much more fun using a clutch and shifter, even though I serriously doubt I'll ever be able to match my pace compared to sequential shifting

Wow nice

Great to see how different the inertia improvements have affected the torque curves. I certainly could feel a huge difference, but now I can see them too

I was only thinking of this yesterday lol

One for the Bathurst fans

Not sure how I've missed this lot before but here's over an hours worth of footage from the Bathurst 1000 in 1991 (Pre V8 Supercars) There's fourteen parts too it. Enjoy

http://uk.youtube.com/profile_ ... hurst1000Video&page=2

Quote from Michel 4AGE :

Ahh the aw11. R.I.P.

Oops! That looks like an expensive track day Maybe he was too busy looking at the speedo and missed the apex

i'm already in, but now I'm in all the way with a G25 too

I'm 2 sec slower at the moment but loving it

For several years I used too use custom wheels view all the time, then about 3-4 months ago I started to use cockpit view some of the time. Since PatchX30 i am using cockpit 100% of the time and loving it

The reason I used custom view originally was I felt it made up for some of the factors lacking in a sim, but now LFS is feeling so much better I feel much more comfortable going to cockpit view.

Quote from Riders Motion :

I was a bit ashamed to say it, but yeh I don't understand anything to his helpfull tools...

meh, that's why suspension tunning is often seen as a black art. Which doesn't mean it is hard, it's just that there is a hell of a lot of information out there to assimilate. And often a little information is just as dangerous as no information but hey it's fun, like a game within a game

Quote from Bob Smith :

RM, I made a whole program to do all the maths for you. Keep up.

Yes Bob I thank you for giving us the tools, so that we can feel like we are LFS race engineers but one thing you can't give us is the wisdom to use those tools

Quote from Speed Soro :

Scawen should review his numbers, cause the clutch waste is not real at this moment.

I think alot are missing the point

LFS is a race simultator so naturally Scawen will concentrate on getting things to work close to realistic in race conditions, this sometimes means a temporay compromise in realism in normal driving conditions.

That has happened with tyre physics and now with clutch heat. Doesn't mean it will remain that way, it will no doubt be refined as we go along. But the priority is to get it implemented and behaving acceptably in race conditions first. This in my view has been achieved.

If you can't drive one of the cars in LFS at the moment in race conditions without significant heat build up in the clutch then your doing something terribly wrong

I love the patch !

No I don't believe the physics are perfect (this is a work in progress ) but patch Y is definately heading in the right direction.

The clutch model has some flaws just as the tyre model does, the important thing isn't that there is some flaws, the most important point is that the clutch behaviour for racing is pretty good and adds an entire new dimension to racing in LFS


What will people say when brake heat is introduced and then dynamic grip levels on the track

Last edited by Glenn67, Sat 22 Dec 2007, 02:11.

Quote from Crash Dummy :

Australian V8 Super cars also run a locked differential. That's Australia's biggest racing series!

They actually use a spooler locking diff, which gives full locking under acceleration and open diff under coast. So quite different from a complete locked diff.

Comments I've read on them specifically are "the diff being open when no throttle is applied allows safe turn in", "having full locking under power makes them difficult cars to turn in on high speed corners..." and "the spooler locking diffs mean that the drivers have to be very gentle on the throttle on exits from medium to slow corners due to understeer/snap oversteer"

Last edited by Glenn67, Fri 21 Dec 2007, 07:26.

Quote from WGooden :

Remember when everyone who raced blackwood GTI in S1 was like a big family and everyone knew each other, lol.
AUSSIE, he was a character.

When you can remember when WGooden thought that someone driving 1 sec off wr pace was fast but then within a few weeks was faster than that

AUSSIE - "Your on LFS and your not on TS! Get on TS now you git!"

It would force the development of non locked diff setups, that can only be a good thing

+1 but also need max preload brought down as well otherwise pointless

I know this is not that long ago but fond memory non the less

remember when a report of Scawens kitchen reno's recieved about the same attention as a new patch release and then all the photoshoped pics of Scawen and also his cat.