The amount of racers on demo outnumbered wreckers by 20 to 1
Everybody knew each other

Quote from JTbo :

It is BL2 with XFG where this all is coming from, in old patch x30 it was not possible to AI cars finish 20 lap race and fairly impossible for human racer to make that at racing speed, bit like snail race.

Change has to be based to some physics, so latest change did cause XFG in BL2 to work pretty well but as that change did affect to some other cars too, it made those such that one can easily flatshift on race.

So now it might be bit of choice between two situations or then Scawen would need to work even more with issue that I believe has taken quite lot of precious time already.

I did a few test races last night with myself and AI around BL1 amd BL2 in XFG, XRG and LX6.

The XFG seems no problem now around BL2 the AI can finish a 15 lap race with minimal clutch heat and I finished the same race with the same heat as them but half a lap ahead so faster pace. Using momo with autoclutch, using default rallycross set. This was comparable to the XRG clutch heat over the same race.

On BL1 the XFG race with minimal clutch heat similar to the lx6 at patch x33 so seems about right. The LX6 on the other hand seems too easy now. I did a 15 lap race around BL1 and after 15 laps with proper blipping you couldn't even detect any clutch heat.

I don't necessarily think that is a bad thing as irl would the LX6 have a better clutch for the car type etc than the XFG. And from what I understand if you flatshift in the LX6 it would still produce some heat which would effect slip on gear changes and impact lap times slightly?

Overall I think it's pretty good in X36 but it could possible be slightly less strong? Something like 75% between X33 and X36.

I voted yes

















That way I can diselect the drift car in filters and only see race servers
It would make everyone happy

Quote from BigTime :

Clutch restored to X33, and here I thought we where making progress. I thought the reducing of 25% would be perfect. With the clutch as is your going to have to pick moments during a race (endurance style) to slow down and the let the clutch cool and slowing down never has been in my vocabulary.

Have you even tried the xfg, lx6 or any other car that has recieved stronger clutches in x36

They seem near on indistructable to me now so should be no problem for endurance racing you would have to really mess up more than once to get in trouble

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 19 Dec 2007, 14:27.

Quote from Scawen :

I think you will find the new X36 an improved version. Clutch heating is back to X33 levels but six of the cars have a stronger clutch. The stronger clutch was worked out purely by engine inertia. So clutch strength is now the larger value of that required for engine torque, and that required to deal with the engine rotational inertia.

That sounds like a good solution to me also, as on thinking some more about the issue, FWD cars which were the most problematic have naturally alot less flex in the drive train than there RWD cousins so introducing more flex wouldn't have been realistic for that particular problem

Irl a car like the gti would most likely have had a heavy duty clutch installed if it was used in rallycross or serious racing. Trackday cars would probably have a clutch somewhere inbetween. The difference in leg strain would have been noticable between them too can't simulate that in LFS yet From what I've read from performance engineering sites about FWD cars standard to medium clutches dont take alot of abuse irl, so I think it would be pretty realistic now.

Quote from evilgeek :

got to disagree mate.

The flex disk has metal sleves which the blots pass through they are done up tight (to a torque setting) metal to metal no flex involved there yes there would be load on the bolt near the plates but bolts of that size can take many tonnes of force. If there was any movement between the bolt and metal end plate they would certainly fail very quickly.

Quote from nihil :

A mini? So that was fwd? Or was it converted to rwd? Just asking since I'm still interested to know about fwd and locked diffs (in the real world... )

It was still a FWD and motor package as original but the motor had been tunned alot

Quote from Bob Smith :

I'm sure Dennis mentioned somethime about axle twist due to inboard brakes on the dp1. Sadly I cannot find in emails/his site where this was mentioned, and I remember the exact figure. I remember it being higher than I thought, over 20 degrees I think (under full braking, that's 1.6gs or so).

They way I understand a flex disk is constructed I'd expect it to be able to flex upto about 30 degrees mechanicaly given enough forces at play. In reality there is probably a large safty margine before the metal components clash so a resonable guess would be what Bob said Also engine mounts can allow several degrees of movement, so it all adds upto quite abit.

Quote from evilgeek :

from what i understand any movement of a guibo (flex disc) is usually a result of the bolts twisting in their holes.

If that's how they work they wouldn't last 5 minutes

I'm pretty sure you will find that they all have six bolts, three attatch to a plate connected to the driveshaft, the other alternating three attatch to another plate that connects to the diff in most cases, this is all encased in rubber. The bolts are spaced 60 degrees apart. Looking at the pic JTBO post above you can see this fairly clearly. You can see by the shape of the connecting plate it would give 10 to 20 degrees of rotation easily.

So the effective (simulated sping) would need to take into account the mass of rubber acting between the two surfaces. (i.e. mass of rubber between two bolts times six) I guess just like tyres there would be varying characteristics between manufacturers etc and would assume road cars would have softer ones compared to race preped cars? So that might help the situation with the XFG.

Last edited by Glenn67, Tue 18 Dec 2007, 23:46.

Quote from richo :

The GTI's guys had to use go-jacks to get the cars back into there pit area but they said it was the norm for there class of racing to weld the diff centers up.

I don't mind the locked diff remaining if it behaves as the way you discribe it. Can't turn the thing in pit lane as it is now it is far too easy to drive with a locked diff.

My father used to race a mini at the speedway back in the '70s, he ran it with welded locked diff, front and rear sway bars, modifed camber and was on slicks, so similar to alot of sets in LFS. He used to win alot of races and had a knack of driving the thing. When he eventually retired from racing the car he sold it onto another fellow competitor who was used to RWD cars he most likely ran with welded diffs as well so wasn't unfamilar with them.

The new owner accused my old man of sabortaging the winning mini as he couldn't drive it no matter how much he tried He would just come flying up to the first corner and carry straight on ahead up the embankment as he couldn't get the thing to turn.

Locked diffs should not be easy to drive imo. My old man had a particular technique for setting up the car (I suspect it had something to do with wieght shift to lift the front inside wheel) to have the right attitude in the bends which enabled him to have maximum power down for most of the lap, where competitiors in much more powerful RWD cars couldn't get down all there power.

Quote from AndroidXP :

To get better data we would need a virtual tyre test rig, where you can set wheel speed, load, camber slip ratio and slip angle of the tyre and extract a RAF out of it.

Didn't Scawen say he was going to code a virtual tyre test rig up at some stage if you ask him really nicely

Quote from Hallen :

However, the reason I end up using a locked diff sometimes is the engine bog down problems. You hit your brakes, the engine bogs down, and you end up with this weird skid problem. It only happens on LSD cars and usually only happens if you are turning just a little bit (ie trail braking or a slight bend in the brake zone). It is not so bad if you are going perfectly straight.

That was a major problem for me with the LSD before patch X30, I used to use high preload to avoid it (i.e. 200 - 400)

With the new engine intertia improvements I have found this problem to be almost non existent now Since X30 I've been setting up the LSD with 20-30 Power Locking, 30-40 coast locking and 20-60 Prload with very good results.

That is the aspect of the new patch that caught most of my attention initially

I personally think we must be pretty close to phasing out the Locked Diff from LFS as the LSD seems pretty good since X30. It was only ever put in there for comparison, it wasn't ever ment to be a viable alternative to the LSD There is simply no need for it anymore. People will not like it though as it will take some time for people to relearn how to setup up a car

So I agree fully with Axus, I suspect he might know that though

Quote from beefyman666 :

I do prefer analog guages (which I voted for) but for the GTR cars (and for a little bit of realism) they need digi race dashes.

Point taken, I'm not against a digital dashboard being used were it would fit with real world equivilents either especially since I drive mostly the LX6 and standard road cars mostly

Quote from beefyman666 :

Done a quick photochop. I can dream 'til it happens.

Digital dashboards were the worst inovation ever in production cars and should be left back in the 80's were they belong I cant begin to say how ugly they were in comparison to a nice set of analogs why do you think most sensible car maufactures reverted back to analog so quickly the public outcry against digital gauges was deafening!

Maybe it's not the same in LFS but irl analogs are far more easily read at a glance than a digital read out.

Hmm what I really want for xmas is a set of real analog gauges linked to LFS via outgauge

Quote from dmwright :

Lol, but I really coundn't really really imagine that could you . Especially in real road cars . I was wondering if it was you who voted for No speedo but... You already have voted

Matty

Hmm I'm getting a reputation it's totally unwarranted I tell you

Quote from dmwright :

LMAO - lol that's insane all together

Not really if I hadn't already voted I'd have at least considered it myself definately RPM should be much more prominante in race cars than speedo. It's just the road cars that would more likely have a speedo than a large RPM dial.

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Be grateful, if Gunn had his way we'd have no cars post 1969

Well what would be wrong with that as lad the belief that real cars stopped being produced between 1967-1972 was firmly implanted. That did remain true for about 20 years imo

Last edited by Glenn67, Sun 16 Dec 2007, 00:06.

Quote from Bandit77 :

- a bloody bad suspension with a lot of body roll and too hard a front

Well that statment might fit with chassis flex not being modeled yet, chassis flex has a big impact. Irl they deliberately take measure to reduce its effects in race preped cars so should make a noticable difference to road car type handling when it is implemented at some future stage

Quote from sidi :

I would prob agree with most of that apart from the realistic diff, just done some offline testing with xrt and i'm finding that locked diff is still faster, maybe i need to test more.

It is possible that the locked diff will still be faster especially in hotlaps, what whould be interesting though is to compare locked diff vs a realistic lsd setup over a long race 40-60 laps, and see how it is with clutch heat and tyre wear now

I also see that with the new improvements the lack of chassis and drive train flex is rearing its head again. That's actually a good sign, and I'm sure that will be addressed in a future patch, at that time I believe we will be much closer to rl setup parameters than ever.

I believe most if not all of the issues with the digital speado that people are having are from developing bad and unrealistic habits in the first place.

It should also be noted that Pre X30 setups are really not valid in X31/Y anymore

Pre X30 I'd have agreed with the digital speedo outcry, infact I used to use it all the time and have since S1H in 2004 along with custom wheels view. All for the same reasons as being stated here now about needing compensation for FOV and lack of feel limitations that a sim cant give.

I have found that you can now setup cars far more realisticly than before (i.e. less camber, slightly higher tyre presasures, softer spring rates and realistic diff use. Also with engine changes gears need adjusting) but if you do all that all the cars I've tried so far give far more indication and predictability at the limit than before with a FFB wheel. So much so that I don't miss the digital speado for a sec now

Real life racing - including qualifying - is much more less predictable than a sim. Sim tracks are still relatively smooth and don't change much from lap to lap. Real tracks change dynamicly from lap to lap. Rubber builds up on the racing line to give extra grip in the dry but less in the wet. Rubber fragments build up off the racing line to reduce grip. Sand is brought onto the track whenever a car reenters from an off. Temperature changes affect grip etc etc

So irl you cant race with a digital speado like is described, not because it not possible to have an accurate digital speado fitted to a race car, but because the track conditions are live and vary alot compared to a sim and it's simply unrealistic to expect the same grip lap after lap (therefore same speed at apex) irl

Another point to note is the pre X30 digital speedo wasn't a hundred percent accurate. At one stage it was as it just told you the exact velocity of the car at any given moment, but several versions ago that was changed so that the speedo gave you what the wheels were recording. So if the wheels were spinning it would report higher than actual speed. Likewise when driving at the limit your tyres do have some slip and the speed isn't accurate. At that time there was an outcry also, because it would be so much harder, but as time went on people adjusted to it.

I don't see it any different now if everyone is in the same environement its a level playing field, the aliens will still be aliens and people will adjust. But what I do see as very promising is that this "race simulator" is getting closer to being a race simulator and less a game with good physics and imo that is a good thing

I'm personally looking forward to a time when the tracks are much more variable too

Quote from Flycantbird :

Why do all the obvious bits get glossed over so frequently ?
(rhetorical)

I've wondered that myself alot in the last few days.

After 10mins of test driving I'd already concluded that the lsd diff's could be set much more like real life now and that cambers could come down from there extreames of pre X30 as well as gear ratios and even tyre pressures need readjusting.

Fantastic progress so far in my view Scawen I find all the cars that much more believable and can only look forward to the future of LFS with newfound promise as you develop the sim futher.

Quote from Scawen :

As you say, they don't simulate the individual firings at the moment, their power comes from a calculated torque curve creating an effect similar to reality but not detailed and interesting enough to be how we'd like it to be in the end. The same goes for the turbo simulation of course. And the clutch will be worked on at some point as well. LFS just gradually gets more and more detailed as time goes on.

Quote from Gnomie :

I tried it on South City Chicane Route, and it felt really awesome! Good job! I never tried a road going set before, but it was really fun to just drive around in the sunset, looking at the great work the devs have put down on this track. I really liked the FFB your set gives -- feels just right IMO. I'll use it for some laps like that when I need to relax after a race!

Don't thank me it's Bobs set I only changed it slighty.

If you liked that you might also like to try the track day version I made of it also.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=628560#post628560

The reason I'm posting them is for Niels and anyone else that might know what a street car of similar specs would feel like at the track to compare. To me they feel pretty good

Maybe the trackday set is what you should get data from next Android as it has closer to RL setup values

Quote from JTbo :

Club's first open track day:

You are free to use setup of choice, as long as it is realistic

Here is my contribution to the track day

Its a road going set adjusted appropriatly for track day driving while still being a comfortable street car. Is that realistic enough

I'll post the road going set also.

I got one of Bobs old road going sets for the XRG and modded it abit for how I think a RL standard street car would be. Changed gear ratios even more than Bob had and fiddled with the suspension slightly to what I think would be a common settings for a street car

The end result is attatched try it and let me know what you think.

XRG_Road Going.set

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 13 Dec 2007, 16:28. Reason : Updated set

I'm finding that the engine inertia improvements have changed car handling dramatically - far more than I envisaged. With that though far more realistic diff setups are possible while still having a quick car unlike before.

Would be interesting to get Bobs original road going setups and port them into X30 to see how they handle now compared to similar cars in RL

Quote from Breizh :

The speedometer should be legible.

Well if your willing to sacrifice some realism for legibility then just set to virtual dials you can see clearly then

Quote from Tweaker :

Nah, two different things.

I always thought there was a default racing groove there before it gets changed by human path updates which I assumed was what the AI racing line would emulate. Ah well another assumption dispelled
Anyway it would still be interesting if the AI could see the racing groove and learn from there human counter parts