I have both a momo racing and G25 wheel, the G25 is a big improvement over the momo.
It has more precise feel in the FFB and overall I don't feel the wheel slows down reaction times. But then again I didn't feel the momo was that bad either for that
maybe it is how you had it setup? If you have Overall Effects Strength set to your preference and all the other settings to zero or off it should be ok on the momo. The G25 does feel more responsive though. And the G25 actually feels like a wheel instead of a toy 
As for the pedals, they are alot better than the momo pedals. Brakes have a reasonable resistance along with the clutch at a little less than the brake, but if your looking for rl type of pedal feel you will be still disapointed. The big problem with brake feel is that irl your brake pedal has limited travel and the brake pressure exerted is less about pedal travel and more about how hard you push the pedal. This hasn't been replicated in off the shelf products yet, I plan to eventually make a cockpit and make a pedal setup that uses a pressure sensor for the brake you can get plans for this off RSC, a few guys arround here have done it I think Nielsathome springs to mind?. That will have to be awhile away for me though
It's always good to hear rl experience
I did notice though that the Azenis RT615s is a pretty high performance tyre almost bordering on a track tyre, having minimal tread pattern and fairly soft compound so I would expect it to perform somewhere between a racing tyre and high perfomance road tyre.
I too think that the tyres in LFS are pretty good, but just am not 100% convinced about some aspects of the road normal and road super tyres.
You do make a good point about tyres being hard to cool down, as rubber is not a good conductor of heat so it will resist heating up but once overheated to a significant depth they will not want to cool down in a hurry as well, as you say even in water
I don't think the road tyres are far off actually and I certainly don't think they cool down too slow as some suggest, but I'm not sure that the way the road normal and supers heat up is spot on yet. Especially the main body of rubber of the tyre, and the behaviour between the surface of the tyre and the main body of the tyre.
Some interesting little bits of info about rubber and tyres to ponder: 
- rubber is a poor conductor of heat, while metal is a good conductor of heat. (different compounds have different characteristics though, the softer compounds may transfer heat more readily than the harder compounds, street legal road tyres would fall into the harder compound category I suspect)
- tyres generate heat mainly due to the rubber being manipulated, not so much by friction. (i.e. A bi-product of force being transmitted through the tyres is heat)
- friction heats the surface alot but doesn't impact the body of the tyre as much - talking about treaded road tyres mainly here.
- heating the outside of a new tyre too rapidly, causes the rubber to harden changing its chemical charateristics and reducing its lifespan considerably. This happens because the outside will heat rapidly while the main body of the tyre doesn't, hence why tyre manufactures advise scrubbing in a new set of tyres, which just means gently bring the tyres up to normal operating temperature.
- locking a tyre causes an isolated spot to 'superheat' turning the surface of the rubber into a molten state which then behaves like a lubricant.
Based on these points I would also suspect that in particular the road tyres in LFS have still got a fair amount of development to be done yet Some thoughts that come to mind are:
- road tyres (treaded) have alot more surface area exposed to the air than slicks so therefore should have a much greater cooling effect on the skin of the tyre.
- road tyres are more likely to be more resistant to heat transfer (due to harder compounds) than slicks and therefore should not transfer heat from friction anywhere near as much as they do now.
- treaded road tyres behave different to slicks near the limit (tread walking) and therefore the frictional heat model would be dramatically different to slicks.
- from what I understand alot of the tyre heat in a road car comes from the wheel and brake assemblies. This is not yet modeled in LFS yet and until it is a highly accurate tyre heat model is difficult.
- steel belted radials would distibute the inner heat of the tyre rapidly and therefore tyre rubber at depth would be roughly consistent around the circumference of the tyre.
While I think the tyre model in LFS is good, I am looking forward to what furture development there will be
Tyres are a very difficult thing to get right as they have many rubbery concepts to master
- rubber is a poor conductor of heat, while metal is a good conductor of heat. (different compounds have different characteristics though, the softer compounds may transfer heat more readily than the harder compounds, street legal road tyres would fall into the harder compound category I suspect)
- tyres generate heat mainly due to the rubber being manipulated, not so much by friction. (i.e. A bi-product of force being transmitted through the tyres is heat)
- friction heats the surface alot but doesn't impact the body of the tyre as much - talking about treaded road tyres mainly here.
- heating the outside of a new tyre too rapidly, causes the rubber to harden changing its chemical charateristics and reducing its lifespan considerably. This happens because the outside will heat rapidly while the main body of the tyre doesn't, hence why tyre manufactures advise scrubbing in a new set of tyres, which just means gently bring the tyres up to normal operating temperature.
- locking a tyre causes an isolated spot to 'superheat' turning the surface of the rubber into a molten state which then behaves like a lubricant.
Based on these points I would also suspect that in particular the road tyres in LFS have still got a fair amount of development to be done yet
Some thoughts that come to mind are:- road tyres (treaded) have alot more surface area exposed to the air than slicks so therefore should have a much greater cooling effect on the skin of the tyre.
- road tyres are more likely to be more resistant to heat transfer (due to harder compounds) than slicks and therefore should not transfer heat from friction anywhere near as much as they do now.
- treaded road tyres behave different to slicks near the limit (tread walking) and therefore the frictional heat model would be dramatically different to slicks.
- from what I understand alot of the tyre heat in a road car comes from the wheel and brake assemblies. This is not yet modeled in LFS yet and until it is a highly accurate tyre heat model is difficult.
- steel belted radials would distibute the inner heat of the tyre rapidly and therefore tyre rubber at depth would be roughly consistent around the circumference of the tyre.
While I think the tyre model in LFS is good, I am looking forward to what furture development there will be
Tyres are a very difficult thing to get right as they have many rubbery concepts to master
+1 from me also, have always thought it could be interesting to have sever side restictions in setups and even performance criteria to create interesting race serries 
I find people that put fu on there number plates much more offenssive than G25
From a business point of view the two that stay for only 3 days should be paying at a higher rate than the rest as they are not staying for the entire week they are not eligible for the "weekly rate"
You purchased the holiday appartment rental at a bulk rate so the three that stay for the entire week should get the benifit of that rate.
This means that the two that stay for three days should pay the equivelent of their share of a daily rate rental.
Lets say the daily rate is $120/day and the weekly rate is $750/week.
This would mean that the two that stay for 3 days would pay 120/5 which is $24 per person per day or $72 each for the three days. The remainder would pay (750-144)/3 which is $202 each for the week.
This would be the fairest way imo
the two that stay for only 3 days should be paying at a higher rate than the rest as they are not staying for the entire week they are not eligible for the "weekly rate" You purchased the holiday appartment rental at a bulk rate so the three that stay for the entire week should get the benifit of that rate.
This means that the two that stay for three days should pay the equivelent of their share of a daily rate rental.
Lets say the daily rate is $120/day and the weekly rate is $750/week.
This would mean that the two that stay for 3 days would pay 120/5 which is $24 per person per day or $72 each for the three days. The remainder would pay (750-144)/3 which is $202 each for the week.
This would be the fairest way imo
for another spin on it does the place your staying have a more expensive daily rate over the weekly rate?
If so you could charge the two that stayed for three days only the "daily rate"/"five people" x "two people" per day that would be fair also
If so you could charge the two that stayed for three days only the "daily rate"/"five people" x "two people" per day
that would be fair also pfft thats just around the corner m8
From what I have experienced in patch Y though flat shifting really isn't too much of a problem for causing the clutch to overheat
For example I can do 15 laps in the LX6 with very little overheating (i.e. doesn't reach red) flatshifting between 3-4-5-6 most of the time. Most of the problems I see with overheating are from standing starts.
With an auto clutch enabled it feathers the clutch on a start rather than droping it, this can cause quite alot of heat buildup if you keep the revs at the limiter. With a fully manual clutch the heat build up is significantly less when you drop the clutch on starts.
I also suspect some of the problems people might be having on a manual clutch are simply engauging it too slowly, irl the clutch pedal has a stronger return spring than say a G25 and therefore you would be naturally inclined to release it faster than with soft pedals. The soft pedals thus encourage poor driving habits which in turn lead to higher clutch heat than you would normally expect.
I'm not so sure you know our summers and winters well
We don't use as much electricity in winter as we do in summer
44.6 deg C here christmas day
If you were here on christams day a a parbolic mirror would have serriously roasted your food
Last edited by Glenn67, .
Oh dear
I'm normally so polite an all too, don't know what came over me 
Duck it's your fault!The real tricky bit for the non Aussies is knowing when it is an insult or when its a compliment
Even us Aussies get a little confused at times and things can get a little uggly I've found the best way is to take all insults as complitments I hear congratulations are in order Duck good luck with mercury I thought automatic transmissions used torque converters, which are not anything like clutches
I watched the video you linked too http://www.supercarchallenge.nl/video/Assen-bmwSTW.wmv
I would have to agree with ajp71 on this one, in that the car has a electronic package installed which limits revs on upshifts etc. So not like the flatshifting done in LFS.
Some more information to contemplate from this source:
http://www.theclutchmart.com/clutch.shtml
So holding a car on an incline for a minute results in the equivelant wear of 5,000 miles of normal use. What then do you think the equivelant wear of flatshifting (without throttle cut or rev limiting electronics) or riding the clutch at high revs would be? Considering also that the average life expectancy for a standard clutch under normal road use is considered to be 80 - 120,000 miles.
Edit: some interesting reading here: - http://forums.bimmerforums.com ... d.php?t=369943&page=2
Last edited by Glenn67, .
That's were people are dramatising things too much, the LFS community is already split in many directions and it's doing fine
i.e. race servers, drift servers, cruise servers, stunt servers, cops an robbers servers, etc etcWhat's all the fuss about hardcore reality servers, only a small percentage of LFSer's would use them and they want necessarily be on them all the time. It's just giving LFS more choice and flexibility.
As to LFS being only a game, well that is true but one of the really great things about LFS is its flexibility to be used in many different ways. Some actually want to treat LFS as a simulator and thus look forward to more realistic options. This does not mean that all will be forced to use it in such a way.
As to it being a disaster to us all, well having more hardcore reality options might actually attract more people to LFS.
We all can agree that you can get clutches that can handle alot more abuse than currently in some cars in LFS. No one is saying otherwise.
The road cars in LFS are not highly modified drift or pimped rides for street racing, therefore it is reasonable to assume that the road cars don't have twin plate clutches and such but more likely have just slightly heavier duty clutches than standard production cars. This is what is recommended by engineers as a compromise between performance and easy everyday driving. My view is that the road cars in LFS are just slightly modified versions of standard factory production cars based on the 1980's era, that in rl would be used for track days and normal driving inbetween. With such a view the clutch behaviour of the road cars in LFS seems very reasonable to me.
The race cars in LFS, which I've done very little testing in at this point, may or may not be similar to real racing cars. If the clutch does tend to heat in them a bit too quickly though, I don't see it as detrimentaly detracting from the racing experience because it will punish bad driving until such time as other mechanical failures are simulated in LFS. Currently heat in the clutch may slow you down, in a future version a mechanical failure would finish your race.
I think the differences of opinion is mostly about peoples expectations of what the cars in LFS reperesent.
The road cars in LFS are not highly modified drift or pimped rides for street racing, therefore it is reasonable to assume that the road cars don't have twin plate clutches and such but more likely have just slightly heavier duty clutches than standard production cars. This is what is recommended by engineers as a compromise between performance and easy everyday driving. My view is that the road cars in LFS are just slightly modified versions of standard factory production cars based on the 1980's era, that in rl would be used for track days and normal driving inbetween. With such a view the clutch behaviour of the road cars in LFS seems very reasonable to me.
The race cars in LFS, which I've done very little testing in at this point, may or may not be similar to real racing cars. If the clutch does tend to heat in them a bit too quickly though, I don't see it as detrimentaly detracting from the racing experience because it will punish bad driving until such time as other mechanical failures are simulated in LFS. Currently heat in the clutch may slow you down, in a future version a mechanical failure would finish your race.
I think the differences of opinion is mostly about peoples expectations of what the cars in LFS reperesent.
Ditto I've had the same experience.
Used to always use chase view prior to LFS (my old man used to mock me) then in LFS I started to use custom wheels view back in 2004 on recommendation of other users in LFS at that time.
Since FCV was introduced on some servers with the release of patch X I started to use it on and off and since patch Y I use it 100% of the time and don't intend going back. I feel I get far more feedback from it and more enjoyment
Used to always use chase view prior to LFS (my old man used to mock me) then in LFS I started to use custom wheels view back in 2004 on recommendation of other users in LFS at that time.
Since FCV was introduced on some servers with the release of patch X I started to use it on and off and since patch Y I use it 100% of the time and don't intend going back. I feel I get far more feedback from it and more enjoyment
Pfft go duck yourself you cheecky young bastard
Tell me, in real life if the governing body of F1 change the rules and 30% of the drivers don't like it, is it fair? They have invested a hell of alot more than 24 quid, and there whole lively hood could rest on it. Is it fair?
Of course it's fair, you either adjust or move onto something else. If you think everything in life is going to turn out exactly how you want or you will chuck a hissy fit till it does, your in for a rough ride
I've bought countless games which I've had about 2-3 weeks game play out of max before I get dissatified with it, is that fair? Of course it's fair, haven't you ever heard of buyer beware.
You should take more responsibility in your purchase decisions, it's in black and white that LFS is in development when you purchase LFS and therefore you have assesed the risk of it not going the direction you would like and you buy it knowing that risk. If you didn't do that then you have learnt a cheap lesson, as I can assure you, you will get taken for far greater sums of money than 24 pounds if you continue to buy things without suficent thought about the risks involved.
If your truely dissatifed take it as a valuable lesson and move on, else suck it in and adjust to the changes.
Well you could say the same about tyre contact patch calculations, the way the tyres heat and cool, the combining of lateral and longitudinal forces, aero physics, smoothness and non variation of road surfaces, implementation of engine performance simulations, vehical impact simulation (collision detection), damage modeling, etc etc etc....
If everything had to be perfect and fully correct under all circustances before being implemented in this alpha (not yet complete) racing simulation then we would have to wait for LFS to be fully complete and finished (i.e. S3) before we could use it
LFS is a work in progress, that means the implementation of some things WILL be incomplete. But will be developed further as time goes on. When incomplete things have been implemented in the past as they have been with the clutch it is because it was deemed that it adds more to the sim than it subtracts at that particular point in time.
From what I have seen from at least the long term supporters of LFS is that they see the current clutch (even with its weekness) is worth having even in this unfinished state as it does add more to the sim than it detracts from it. Not everyone will agree with this but such is life
Personaly I quite enjoy being apart of the development process and am grateful to be able to use LFS before it is complete, rather than wait another few years before it is released as a finished product correct in every respect.
Any simulation no matter how good or bad is an approximation of rl
Both simulation by mathematic modeling and by lookup tables have there shortcommings, no one with any sort of knowledge on the subject would deny that
Mathematical modelling though is often desired above lookup tables as it is far more prdictable in nature within a sim. This doesn't mean it will be more accurate in every circumstance
and no one that I am aware of is trying to say that the clutch in LFS is exactly like real life or in some circumstances even remotely like real life What the suporters of the clutch are saying is that it is a step in the right direction and better than not having the clutch modeled at all. It works effectively in race conditions and that is what counts.
It will no doubt be refined as LFS progress, and I'm sure will change once drive trains can be damaged etc.
LOL and even then they don't always use it
The other complexity to Aussies is that most times if they abuse you they actually think your a good bloke that can be abit hard for some to comprehend lol
I'd offer but I'm really not on LFS enough to warrant it, I can get on the forums far more than I can get on LFS
that can be abit hard for some to comprehend lolI'd offer but I'm really not on LFS enough to warrant it, I can get on the forums far more than I can get on LFS
Last edited by Glenn67, .
Not quite right
in LFS speak it should be:Mate-friend (m8)
Barbie-Outdoor stove (I miss the days when it was a 44gal drum cut in half and a 3mm steel plate
)Kangaroo-strange bouncy creature (hopping dog)
38degrees- hot day (nah 44 deg is hot
)Western Australia- unknown origin
(wrong again its the only place to be )strewth-...shit (does anyone really use that word still
I haven't heard it for 20 years)As to a new server in Aust, best of luck with it. If it is every running road cars I'll be sure to pop in. Oh and please please don't set it to all cars
Last edited by Glenn67, .
If you had of asked me a few days ago I would of said "that's an outrage and discrimination" but now I say "I want the option to drive only against other clutch and shift users who are interested in driving as they would irl"
Oh another server side option I'd like to see is being able to set a required setup or limit setup options to certain paramaters as a server option
Yes I did get a G25 also Jtbo my wife has even encouraged me to build a racing frame also 
hmm just have to convince her about projector now and I'm set LOL
but now I say "I want the option to drive only against other clutch and shift users who are interested in driving as they would irl" Oh another server side option I'd like to see is being able to set a required setup or limit setup options to certain paramaters as a server option
Yes I did get a G25 also Jtbo
my wife has even encouraged me to build a racing frame also hmm just have to convince her about projector now and I'm set LOL
Last edited by Glenn67, .
Yes irl that is always in back of drivers mind
if you watch footwork of any of the V8Supercar drivers they always check for brake pressure before each braking zone every corner! FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG