I haven't even turn it on or know how. But I'd has a guess that it is based pretty much on the old racing line that was there in rubber laid down anyway maybe it gets updated with other cars path data as well that would be interesting for AI being trained by human drivers. But I dought it.

Quote from danben7 :

um, where do you download it from?

It's currently a test patch so its not yet offically released.

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=34749

Quote from mrodgers :

Weird how it can be so small of a change visually, yet so large in driving. I'm not saying it is unnoticeable visually, just very suttle.

And in that you have just hit upon one of the keys of going faster even very subtle changes in racing line can make a significant difference which is why you so often hear "but I'm doing the exact same lines as you and...."

XFG and BL1 was the first combo I tried as always and wasn't yet at one with the clutch. Yeah the end of striaght punnishes alot if you go abit too wide its less flowing like that but more techincal.

I liked the old one cause I could drive it in my sleep bit like watching TV I could turn off and just relax.

The new track layout will just take time too get used too and then it will be the same no dought, just got to break all those old electrical connections in my brain and rewire them for the new layout overall I like it and think it will be good for more fun races.

Engine inertia, clutch and locked diff will change XFG characteristic dramatically with old type sets. It will require a complete change in setup behaviour I believe. thats the car

Then the track has changed more than is easy to see. It's narrower so alot of the corners can't be taken quite as fast as previous and then there is the major change after the end of straight leading into the second chicane. At least a second to two seconds difference there now I think. I've only tried about a dozen laps there and used to do 133xx was getting 137-138 so wouldn't feel that bad about 139xx

I've only done about 20 laps in FBM mostly LX6 for me still love that car. Bettered my previous pb on SO Classic with LX6 last night after fiddling with the new RaceS set. SO tracks and LX cars are truely heaven now

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 13 Dec 2007, 04:12.

Quote from kaynd :

anyway I hate locked diffs… I have removed them from all my sets for any car, since the addition of preload after patch W

I did the exact same thing
I do agree that the XFG clutch seems abit too weak, but its seems to be XFG related so probably just an adjustment on that car is needed. Also your probably right in that the friction heat build up is abit off at lower rpm, maybe accross the board haven't tested myself


One thing that has always bothered me in LFS is that mid to low rpm always "sounds like" its too low compared to RL. I mean if I go in my car and hold it at 2000rpm it sounds like 4000rpm in lfs or there abouts, so I think it gives a false impression that it is low rpm when its not. I have noticed an improvement in that in this patch but it still gives me that impression

Are the people that find clutches easy to burn all using lock diff?

I think you will find any high locking diff will now put alot more strain on the clutch causing it to overheat at least that is my impression.

The UF1 has an open diff most people driving the XFG are still probably trying to use the locked diff try the LSD with medium to low locking and see if your results are much different.

I agree though that the XFG does seem to be a little too sensitive.

A few comments though in a real life car slipping the clutch on a slope at average 2000 rpm isnt low rpm a normal hill start probably wouldn't use much more than 1200rpm if that, also first gear in a rl street car would be much much lower so less bite would be needed to keep car stationary.

But I get your point and yes I think it probably needs a little fine tunning. Like BBT said its probably just the heat curve that need fine tunning on some cars. And also people will need to adjust setups to siut new situation, and on thinking about it, its probably this later senerio that is more true as we have got away with quite unrealistic setup before.

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 13 Dec 2007, 03:31.

Quote from Riders Motion :

they all suggest 50 psi for STREET USE. I

Max tyre pressure does not equal optimum tyre pressure optimum tyre pressure has not so much to do with the tyre itself but rather the loads and conditions the tyre is running under.

A street car with normal street tyres (not performance) may have a suggested pressure of 27-32psi but thats with an empty car with driver and a passenger maybe at speeds under 120km/h. They would suggest if the car is going to be loaded more on a regular basis to increase this by 4psi, also if you intend to drive at speeds above 120km/h it is generally recommended to increase tyre pressure by 4psi, but this is mainly to reduce the wear on the tyre not necessarily for any porformance gain.

In reality the correct pressure is determined depending on track condition, weather condition and the load/speed the tyre is subjected too, not so much the rated pressure on the tyre.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

There is only one real benefit from using a clutch pedal in LFS: In the road cars you can shift up faster than the auto-clutch shift. In the race cars (XFR and up) the auto-clutch is so fast that there is no benefit from clutching manually.

But you also lose time in braking areas and corners; there's the delay from switching to the brake pedal and back again with your right foot, and it's harder to do a smooth transition from brake to throttle and keep the car stable in the corners. You're also more likely to mis-time shifts completely, or miss the brake pedal completely when twisting your foot to bring it over the brake (it's embarrassing when this happens!), etc.

In short: Racers using a clutch pedal are at a disadvantage, but we do it because we think it's more fun.

With practise I don't even think there would be a significant advantage in the upshifts for clutch users I'm already managing very fast and clean shifts with no noticable clutch heat on my momo two pedal setup.

So racing with a clutch pedal is a disadvantage all around still but your right it would be much more fun and because of that I am having a very hard time restraining myself from rushing out and buying an G25 or alternatively building my own pedal setup

@ pwrslave - I thought that also. For me it's actually been the opposite, I've actually been reluctant to push LFS as a true simulator up until now. While the physics felt good I didn't really feel it was or could be classified as a simulator but now that has changed quite abit and I can feel comforatble to push LFS as a simulator on PC to those that drive as a passion in real life

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 13 Dec 2007, 01:04.

Quote from JohnPenn :

First of all I've not tried the patch yet, but regarding the loss of Digital speedo, I admit I have become addicted to it lately, using it as a benchmark or guide for lap times,I,m so glad I can now go cold turkey
The car Tell's you when you get a corner right That for me is what makes LFS so special, Maybe now I will watch the track more, think about my line more, instead of having to get XXMPH through t1

I think this change is a good move in the long term for LFS.

That is exactly how I was I had digital speedo and was always conscoius of my mid corner speeds. I also used to flatshift the hell out of all cars oh and did I mention that up until recently (last 3-6 months) I've used almost exclusivly custom wheels view

My observations regarding Test Patch X30:

1. Engine Inertia: - I have been driving with the limited slip diff's since preload was introduced some time ago, not because it was better than locked diff but because it should be!
I was always bothered by the rpm pulldown on the LSD in the transient section of corner entry. With the improved engine inertia model this problem is gone totally which allows more realistic setup of the diff and has made a HUGE improvement in the realism and handling of the cars. Before I found how the cars handle in LFS to be good but not totally believable now it is good enough to actually be believable. There is far greater imersion in this aspect of the game than there has ever been, you can now drive more by feel than you could ever do in the past. It's come along way baby

2. Removal of Digital Speedo: - Was a little worried that my beloved digital readout was being removed but jumped into the new patch with a positive view. Still have virtual dials as I can actually see them may change in the future with three monitor setup
Anyway have found now I am looking at the RPM as much if not more than the speedo for corner speed and suspect as time goes on a quick glance at rpm every now an then is all I need. I find it isn't actually so critical with the improved handling to get the corner perfect as you can feel the car better at the limit than previously.
So I think its removal adds to the immersion and give a level playing field. I look forward to the times when racing is much more raw and not just hotlapping and this imo is a step in the right direction

3. Clutch Modeling: - again was a little concerned how it was going to effect gameplay (as I flat shift the hell out of everything) and only have a momo wheel (no clutch). Prior to trying patch was thinking I'd probably need to update to G25.
The first try in an XFG I was getting quite abit of clutch heat (just hitting red) due to old habits. Noticed straight away that if you flat shift the clutch slipped for a second as revs matched which generated alot of heat. So started to practise different methods of changing gear and lifting off to reduce clutch heat. Quickly adapted to it and gotta say I love it as it adds a whole new dimension to the racing experience adding to the immersion level

4. AI improvements: - huge improvements in the AI! A few things still bother me with them though. Their skills at recovering from incidents suck if there is another car in the way they will persist in trying to drive through it. And I haven't tried them extensively yet but I'd still love to see the AI learn from the human players somehow, be interesting to see if they do now. But I suspect they don't.

Overall I absolutly love the New LFS I find the immersion level has jumped up several notches, and think that over the next few months we will start to see quite different setups than we have seen in the past. Hopefully more realitic.
It already seems to me that more realistic diff setups are easier on the clutch and I suspect camber angles might come down abit as well as the cars are behaving quite differently in the transient sections of corners.

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 13 Dec 2007, 00:43.

Quote from ajp71 :

Go team Australia

Hmm I object to being alluded to as a lagger, from my perspective its all you guys that are lagging

Quote from UruNico2641 :

I am getting sick of this... and I can't get S2... this just sucks...

About the time of patch releases this activity is always higher, give it a week or two and it will die back down

Quote from R.Kolz :

I´m afraid this new patch might be a difficult implementation for LFS endurance racing.

Give it some time.

It will take some time for everyone to get out of hotlap mode and start driving in a more realistic way, once that happens it want be an issue.

Also there will still probably be some fine tunning of the clutch heat model so would wait for then for final thoughts. So far I find it quite good, have been able to drive most cars with minimal clutch heat build up.


What is endurance racing about if not about racing with an awareness of not damaging mechanical components? I think its a good thing for endurance racing and will only improve the further we go along the LFS development cycle.

IRL I've seen the top contender of a 1000km race crashed out after the 1st corner because he overheated the clutch on start and then couldn't get acceleration or speed down next straight - in a pack of 30+ cars one didn't see him limping along and rear ended him - end result race over. If he didn't get cleaned up the clutch still would have taken at least a full lap to recover while being way off pace.

Also don't forget that most old setups will probably make clutch overheating worse, setups will have to go through a whole new development cyle now

I tested it for about 5 - 6 hours last night and gotta say I'm impressed

Before people used to say LFS physics were close to real life - I used to think yeah there not bad, I can imagine driving like that. Now I drive and it really feels like I'm driving, I don't need imagination any more the emerssion has jumped up a whole bunch of notches for me - so for me its definately moving in the right direction.

I think it will make the racing experience much much more realistic - imagine now these changes along with dynamic racing line, live track (rubble, oil, etc), mechanical considerations extended to engine wear/heating, brakes wear heating, etc, etc dynamic weather temp/wet etc

Quote from JTbo :

With Axus set there is more grip and stability on corner entry but at mid corner all that grip just seem to disappear.

Your set indeed feels easier to drive, I'll give you that and actually I tested yours and axus's again (haven't driven in awhile) and got similar lap times out of them both (best on both was low 1:20xxs and average of 1:21:00)

I have to say though I can get your set just as out of control as you did with axus's set so really I think your observations are abit biased as you know your set really well and dont know axus set all that well.

I'd sugest that the time your loosing is actually by slowing too much mid corner so you can floor it on corner exit with your set and you are actually driving your set well within the limits of grip mid corner rather than at the limit

With your set I tend to carry at least 5km/hr more than you on average through the corners and feather the throttle more on corner exit rather than just flooring it

I dont think your set is all that bad it just comes down to driver style I guess.

P.s. a little bit of drift on corner entry doesn't seem to hurt lap times in the LX6 infact it may even help

Quote from JTbo :

Glenn, you are nasty, you did spill oil on track

LOL stop being a girl you didn't give it a good enough try

I watched both replays and instantly saw you were going faster into the corners with axus's oil set, so it was giving you confidence on corner entry more than your set did, you just were driving beyond the limits of grip on corner exit because of increased momentum so clearly its a better set

If you want a shooping cart set I'll see if I can dig one up

Quote from Leprekaun :

Hi all! something that I feel like I'm reaching these days is a form of insanity. No joke, I do mean it. I appreciate the driving ability of such drivers as Bawbag, hannu, flotch, Biohazard and biggi (and any of the other usual WR setters if I forgot to mention)....
So, do you believe that if someone were to work hard enough that they can be as good or better as the best or should I just give up hope and just depress myself?

imo the difference between the top few percent of truely quick drivers and the rest of us in LFS is that the majority of us seek to learn the skills of driving secondary to learning the tracks (i.e. we focus way too much attention to emulating WR lap time rather than mastering driving skills)

I think mastering the cars and physics of LFS is the first prority to being a top driver and then you will have the ability and confidence to attack the top drivers on any track combo by searching out the fastest way around a circuit. What I am trying to say is don't get caught up trying to emulate lines etc and just doing hundreds of laps searching for a few more fractions of a millisec. Instead if your quite abit off pace (more than 0.3s) question yourself on whether or not your technique can be improved or if there is a faster technique. It's common to see guys doing almost identical lines etc but being as much as 1 sec different in lap times and that is mostly down to better techniques imo.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

In my case, on demo server, but licenced.. What can i do, our demo server is always full with people from my country and it's cool to race with them and learn them some tricks.. so yea, it could be that..

There is nothing wrong with that I've got two S2 Licenses and have done a total of 56,000km on both but have done at least ten times that in demo I get as much enjoyment out of meeting new people and helping them out as having good racing. Also for my timezone it was the only way to actually get a race in a road car alot of times

That's why I could recognise your situation so easily

The last few months I haven't had much time for LFS and when I do I am really enjoying taking the LX6 for a spin usually I end up in a server with one or two others only but the LX6 is such a pleasure to drive I could drive it all by myself and still be happy lol

Try this setup I got from Axus (one he is still working on) I like it quite alot

Quote from Boris Lozac :

sorry kinda off topic but i wanted to see if someone else maybe feels that...

you obviously spent too much time in demo at some point and your brain has irreversible XFG BL1 pattern syndrom so its no longer possible to be normal again at one point I thought this to be incurable myself, but have found that large doses of LX6 have gone along way to curing the problem but like any addiction I still have to manage it because I find it very easy to slip backwards again
Maybe there should be a blackwoods anonymous consoling group here somewhere

Fast approaching patch schizophrenia syndrom seems to be in epidemic proportions at the moment

Quote from tristancliffe :

I think it's a problem with the combining of lateral and longitudinal tyre modelling, as well as having slightly 'soft' tyre carcasses.

And the fact that tyre heat seems to be generated by friction rather than heat produced by manipulation of rubber (i.e. the disipation of energy as heat) It's the latter that generates most of the tyre heat irl.

I'll have a look purely for the learning exercise, does that make me geeky?

I'll need a day or two to look at it (inbetween work and house reno's) probably want be of much help to you though

Quote from Impreza WRX :

Throttle while separating the clutch? Good thing LFS doesn't simulate clutch wear!

Even if it did the average public pick up race is 5 laps then you would get a new one so it would last

I do two jobs and work 7 days a week so be thankfull you have 1 day off

Quote from Jakg :

I was experienced enough at LFS so that I could turn up at any track in any car with a setup i've never driven before (but a decent one) and still set fairly decent laps

Conversaly an experienced LFSer can drive almost any half decsent set to close to WR lap times also so I guess it's personal choice