:bowdown::bowdown::headbang::bowdown::headbang::bowdown::headbang::bowdown::headbang::bowdown::bowdown:
Nice work Dave. Why didn't you publish that BEFORE our race?
I had to lift for most of those corners and I was using your set.
Nice work Dave. Why didn't you publish that BEFORE our race?
I had to lift for most of those corners and I was using your set.
Yep, it can be faster depending on the driver and what they are used to, especially a driver that is always losing the back end. But it is also completely unrealistic.
Do what you want, I am not trying to tell you to change it.
Personally, I find the realistic steering ranges better to drive for the most part because it gives you finer control of the steering. You have to work harder and be faster if you lose the back end, but I also find you don't lose the back end as ofter too.
Your Logitech profiler FF settings might be goofy too. I set mine at 65% force and turn off the other effects features and the spring. I have even gone as far to replace all the profiler button functionality with LFS scripts that I put together so I can turn off the profiler completely. I think the FF in LFS works much better now and I am feeling more subtle FF changes than I could before.
Last edited by Hallen, .
It is a lot more physically difficult in the real car, especially something like the FBM. Because you are being inundated with sounds, smells, forces, fear, everything from the real world, it is very hard for a one time drive to really be able to say definitively, "yeah, that was like LFS". It takes a while to start noticing the more subtle things the car does under loads. Once you get used to the real, physical environment and all those other inputs (sound, fear, etc), then you can really start the analysis (as long as you aren't too tired by then)
. Does the Challenge allow the drivers to do their own setups? If it does, then I would expect that most will say the sim doesn't drive like the real car. The setup has so much to do with the car feel that it will override any of the physics behaviors. For example, the drivers will complain that the real car understeers a lot more than LFS, or that LFS lets you put the power down too quickly/easily compared to the real car. Those things can be greatly changed with some pretty small setup changes.
And Scawen, I wouldn't doubt you are better in the real car than in the sim. I would suspect most people would be.
Werd!
Working in software for the last 15 years, those are words to live by.
Then you have a ton of leagues to choose from. Pick your poison and sign up. It is not a life-long commitment and you don't need an invite for most of the leagues. It is not the same as a team. Check the leagues section of the forum.
League racing is the best if you want clean and competitive racing.
Isn't it cool that we can argue like this about virtual cars? I think it is a testament to the quality of LFS.
I picked the XRR because I have a lot of experience with it but have now switched to the FZR for the latest series.
With good setups, the FZR is a joy to drive. It handles very well and has tons of linear power. It will want to step out on you under power and it can be hard to catch once it does step out. However, throttle modulation works nicely and the car has a good range of settings that allow you to turn in nicely and still not have too much oversteer.
The XRR has the problem of turbo lag that makes it difficult to get the power down out of corners. The power kicks in just when you don't need it too and around you go.
The setup on it is difficult because of the lack of front end grip. The car can be setup well, but it is harder to do. You always have to compromise something in order to get what you need where with the FXR, you can usually remove bad habits without compromising too much. Part of this is because of the lack of front downforce on the XRR. You try and improve high speed handling by adding rear downforce, but then the front washes out, even at the maximum downforce setting. You have to lower rear downforce which then makes the car more squirrely in the corners. You compensate by upping the mechanical grip for the rear, but then you push like mad in the slow corners. It is a tough balance.
With good setups, the FZR is a joy to drive. It handles very well and has tons of linear power. It will want to step out on you under power and it can be hard to catch once it does step out. However, throttle modulation works nicely and the car has a good range of settings that allow you to turn in nicely and still not have too much oversteer.
The XRR has the problem of turbo lag that makes it difficult to get the power down out of corners. The power kicks in just when you don't need it too and around you go.
The setup on it is difficult because of the lack of front end grip. The car can be setup well, but it is harder to do. You always have to compromise something in order to get what you need where with the FXR, you can usually remove bad habits without compromising too much. Part of this is because of the lack of front downforce on the XRR. You try and improve high speed handling by adding rear downforce, but then the front washes out, even at the maximum downforce setting. You have to lower rear downforce which then makes the car more squirrely in the corners. You compensate by upping the mechanical grip for the rear, but then you push like mad in the slow corners. It is a tough balance.
I think that real GTR cars like in the ALMS have some front adjustability, but not a lot.
What they can do is change the entire front assembly to use a different splitter and winglet arrangement. The vents on top of the wheels have an effect with the downforce so you will see different variations of those too. Changing the nose on these cars does not take very long, but it is something that you rarely see them do on a pit stop. It is more something that is done during the test sessions prior to a race. On the 12 and 24 hours races, you will sometimes see them change the nose for different conditions.
What they can do is change the entire front assembly to use a different splitter and winglet arrangement. The vents on top of the wheels have an effect with the downforce so you will see different variations of those too. Changing the nose on these cars does not take very long, but it is something that you rarely see them do on a pit stop. It is more something that is done during the test sessions prior to a race. On the 12 and 24 hours races, you will sometimes see them change the nose for different conditions.
That is a very hard thing to do. If you get a real racer to do it, chances are they won't relate well to the sim environment. They won't really be able to compare because they are lacking g forces and everything else that comes with a real car.
If you get a sim guy to do it, unless they are really gifted, they won't be able to push the real car to the limit for a long time. And even if they do, they won't be able to provide you with much usable feedback.
I think the best tactic is to do what Scawen is doing. Model the physics as best you can, test the heck out of it, and then balance the cars using actual physical characteristics. I think you will get better results that way than doing testing in the real cars (in general).
Sure, ego gets in the way. But you are missing the point. The point is that all cars are racing. Some are racing to hold 18th spot and some are racing to hold 1st.
What the faster guy has to realize is that the slower guy is racing too. You may have to wait for a corner or two before the pass can happen if you catch them at a bad spot.
Conversely, the slower guy has to realize that the faster guy isn't just out there hot lapping for a pb. They are having a race too and every 10th of a second is important to them. Don't fight the guy, work with him to let him get around as quickly and as safely as possible.
Lapping is a big part of endurance racing. Traffic giveth and traffic taketh away. Learn from it and accept it. It will not change anytime soon. I can't say it any stronger than this. It is part of endurance racing at every level. Expanded and explicit rules are not really going to make it any different, just more complicated.
My last comment is this, if you are getting held up by a slower car who seems to be racing you, talk to the other team. We have team speak and vent servers up. We should have irc up for teams to use. Team managers should monitor these communications. This is exactly what real teams will do in races, they will talk to each other. You shouldn't have to discuss lapping, but that is one more tool to use. You never know, maybe somebody is confused because you discoed and reconnected and now you are 30 laps behind as far as LFS is concerned and you are not generating blue flags.
I need to mention a some stuff that I noticed while watching the race concerning lapping traffic.
I mostly saw good behaviour even though some lapped cars were being a little over zealous about trying to get out of the way.
I did see several cars, and I won't point out names here, that consistently held up faster cars for laps at a time. There were cases where the faster car was having trouble getting along side to make the pass. But, I could also see the faster car being held up in the corners and getting a bad launch off the corner and not being able to move alongside on the straight.
This is a two part problem. First, the faster driver needs to back off and work on his timing to leave the corner with enough speed to move alongside on the straight... or at least make it apparent that they are in position to move by.
Secondly, the lapped car needs to recognize when he is holding up another car. You may think you are maintaining a gap, but it is really an accordion and you are holding up faster traffic. Make provisions for this and although you shouldn't "roll over and die", be aware of good places to slow up for just a half second to let the faster car past.
I also saw on several occasions slower cars actively defending their position for several laps. At about the time I was going to recommend a warning or penalty, they would get passed, so no penalty during the race occurred. I actually saw several cars chop down on lapping traffic actually causing contact in mid corner.
All I can say about that is to pay attention. The corners are the best place to make a solid pass happen that does not cost much time to either driver. Be aware and know where the other car is. The lapping car must be aware and in position to take advantage when a lapped car "squares up" a corner so that you can get by. But also be aware that some corners are not good places to quickly get by. You must respect the race of the lapped cars too.
If lapped cars continue to fight faster traffic, it will not be good for any of us. It will lead to more contact (potentially semi-intentionally out of frustration) and more wrecked cars. It will make our jobs as Admins more difficult and time consuming.
We all know that the LFS blue flag system is not perfect. You must rely on your team to keep you informed on where each car behind you is in the standings and if you are fighting them for position or to perhaps keep from getting lapped. If not, work with the lapping traffic to make the pass happen where it costs both of you the least time. Remember, .1 second lost letting a lapping car past is much better than getting punted after holding that car up for 3 laps. It would hopefully be unintentional punting, but even if it isn't and the other car gets a penalty, you still got punted and had to pit for repairs or get pulled out of the sand. Not good for anybody.
I mostly saw good behaviour even though some lapped cars were being a little over zealous about trying to get out of the way.
I did see several cars, and I won't point out names here, that consistently held up faster cars for laps at a time. There were cases where the faster car was having trouble getting along side to make the pass. But, I could also see the faster car being held up in the corners and getting a bad launch off the corner and not being able to move alongside on the straight.
This is a two part problem. First, the faster driver needs to back off and work on his timing to leave the corner with enough speed to move alongside on the straight... or at least make it apparent that they are in position to move by.
Secondly, the lapped car needs to recognize when he is holding up another car. You may think you are maintaining a gap, but it is really an accordion and you are holding up faster traffic. Make provisions for this and although you shouldn't "roll over and die", be aware of good places to slow up for just a half second to let the faster car past.
I also saw on several occasions slower cars actively defending their position for several laps. At about the time I was going to recommend a warning or penalty, they would get passed, so no penalty during the race occurred. I actually saw several cars chop down on lapping traffic actually causing contact in mid corner.
All I can say about that is to pay attention. The corners are the best place to make a solid pass happen that does not cost much time to either driver. Be aware and know where the other car is. The lapping car must be aware and in position to take advantage when a lapped car "squares up" a corner so that you can get by. But also be aware that some corners are not good places to quickly get by. You must respect the race of the lapped cars too.
If lapped cars continue to fight faster traffic, it will not be good for any of us. It will lead to more contact (potentially semi-intentionally out of frustration) and more wrecked cars. It will make our jobs as Admins more difficult and time consuming.
We all know that the LFS blue flag system is not perfect. You must rely on your team to keep you informed on where each car behind you is in the standings and if you are fighting them for position or to perhaps keep from getting lapped. If not, work with the lapping traffic to make the pass happen where it costs both of you the least time. Remember, .1 second lost letting a lapping car past is much better than getting punted after holding that car up for 3 laps. It would hopefully be unintentional punting, but even if it isn't and the other car gets a penalty, you still got punted and had to pit for repairs or get pulled out of the sand. Not good for anybody.
lol, well, it is well known that Porsche drivers use goofy lines into corners. There is the "racing line" and the "Porsche Line".
ALMS Porsche GT2 RSR Specs
If you ever wanted to compare an ALMS (or LMS or Le Mans) GT2 car to the GTR class cars, here is some decent data on the 2008 model.
The thing I found interesting was the differential lock. They list it at 45/65 percent. If they are noting Lock/Coast like LFS does, it is an interesting split. Of course I don't know what the normal notation is for coast vs lock so I could have it backwards.
http://www.planetlemans.com/20 ... uces-its-2008-gt2-weapon/
The thing I found interesting was the differential lock. They list it at 45/65 percent. If they are noting Lock/Coast like LFS does, it is an interesting split. Of course I don't know what the normal notation is for coast vs lock so I could have it backwards.
http://www.planetlemans.com/20 ... uces-its-2008-gt2-weapon/
I think that some of you don't realize how difficult it is to marshal or Admin one of these races. We simply do not have the tools to quickly review protests or even be able to catch things like overtaking under yellow. We do our best and keep our eyes on things as best we can. We will catch you eventually, so don't try it. But don't be surprised if we don't initially see it.
The Safety Car needs to deploy to the track when it can and when it is most practical to catch the leader. If that means that the SC pulls out in front of you and you are not the leader, you have to know the rules and you must pass the safety car. We might be able to work a rule for the safety car by using the turn signals to indicate that it is OK for you to pass, but you have to know your position on the track and the rules. You should know it is OK to safely overtake the SC on your own.
We are not on a power trip by the way. The rules were setup for this league to simulate live racing as best as we can. You all signed up for it hopefully with full knowledge of the rules. We have to enforce the rules as they are written for it to be fair for everybody. I think it has been going quite well.
The SC periods add another dimension to the racing that can help you or hurt you depending on how you deal with it or what is currently happening. Yes, you have to deal with lapped traffic and vice-verse. That is part of the challenge.
During the 4 hour races I hope that everyone will be a bit more calm and keep the greasy side down. Fewer safety car periods would be good.
The Safety Car needs to deploy to the track when it can and when it is most practical to catch the leader. If that means that the SC pulls out in front of you and you are not the leader, you have to know the rules and you must pass the safety car. We might be able to work a rule for the safety car by using the turn signals to indicate that it is OK for you to pass, but you have to know your position on the track and the rules. You should know it is OK to safely overtake the SC on your own.
We are not on a power trip by the way. The rules were setup for this league to simulate live racing as best as we can. You all signed up for it hopefully with full knowledge of the rules. We have to enforce the rules as they are written for it to be fair for everybody. I think it has been going quite well.
The SC periods add another dimension to the racing that can help you or hurt you depending on how you deal with it or what is currently happening. Yes, you have to deal with lapped traffic and vice-verse. That is part of the challenge.
During the 4 hour races I hope that everyone will be a bit more calm and keep the greasy side down. Fewer safety car periods would be good.
Wow, that is interesting. The bump and rebound have about the same rates.
With the street dampers I have been looking at, bump is usually much lower than rebound. Rebound is usually 2x or more than bump. Which matches up with most of the stuff I have seen written about suspension setups.
Of course the dp1 is a special little car
.Is there such a thing as motion ratio for the dampers like there is for the springs? I wouldn't think so, but thought I would ask.
One of the things that has been bugging me about LFS and as a result, VHPA is the values used for the damping rate. From what I have see (at least here in the US) is that dampers are rated at .52m/s or 20in/sec.
It is virtually impossible to get these values converted over to 1m/s. Well, it wouldn't be so bad if the damping rate were linear, but again, in most cases it doesn't seem to be. I only have experience with road going dampers though, so it might not be true for race dampers.
The modern dampers I am familiar with are very progressive similar to a second order differential equation where the rate of damping reduces as the rate of motion increases. The highest rate of change is between 0 and .3m/s. After that, the slope drops off considerably and becomes more linear.
So, if you get a value from a damper manufacturer, say Bilstein, they will give it to you at .52m/s and it will be something like 2000n. You can't really just double it to get the proper m/s value and even if that did match up, it wouldn't work for slower rates, the values would be much too low.
Anyway, I don't know of a way around this.
But it would be nice to either a) allow entry at different rates and then offer an approximation for variable rate dampers. and b) find out exactly what Scawen does to calculate damper values given a single spot value at 1m/s (I think we all assume it is just linear now).
If we knew exactly, then you could put in values that would give you the correct damping at the slower rates (which are the most important) and would probably be a bit high for the faster rates (assuming that Scawen takes that into account, which I am sure he does).
It is virtually impossible to get these values converted over to 1m/s. Well, it wouldn't be so bad if the damping rate were linear, but again, in most cases it doesn't seem to be. I only have experience with road going dampers though, so it might not be true for race dampers.
The modern dampers I am familiar with are very progressive similar to a second order differential equation where the rate of damping reduces as the rate of motion increases. The highest rate of change is between 0 and .3m/s. After that, the slope drops off considerably and becomes more linear.
So, if you get a value from a damper manufacturer, say Bilstein, they will give it to you at .52m/s and it will be something like 2000n. You can't really just double it to get the proper m/s value and even if that did match up, it wouldn't work for slower rates, the values would be much too low.
Anyway, I don't know of a way around this.
But it would be nice to either a) allow entry at different rates and then offer an approximation for variable rate dampers. and b) find out exactly what Scawen does to calculate damper values given a single spot value at 1m/s (I think we all assume it is just linear now).
If we knew exactly, then you could put in values that would give you the correct damping at the slower rates (which are the most important) and would probably be a bit high for the faster rates (assuming that Scawen takes that into account, which I am sure he does).
The bridge is gone now. The put a tunnel under the track. The corner is basically the same though. It makes for better fan viewing without the bridge being there.
Reference to PIR.
I would of course vote for PIR because it is my home track and I would love to be able to practice in LFS for it.
But, it would be a bit boring for Sim racing. There is no elevation changes at all.
If Scawen did want to do something like that, I am sure I could help because I know a lot of people involved with the track up there. It is a city owned track so licensing probably wouldn't be a problem.
It is a very fun track to drive in real life though and it is a proper road course. It was originally built off of the city streets of a town called Vanport that was destroyed by a flood. www.griplimit.net for some other video of the track.
If you have r-Factor, there is a pretty good version of it out called Vanport International.
My vote would also go for Road America, a very, very fun track to drive. Super fast corners, medium speed corners, slow corners, elevation changes, etc. VIR would be great too. There are also a ton of club tracks that are being built here in the US that would be great ideas too. Most of them have tons of different combinations.
I think however, that until we come up with a system for the community to provide quality tracks, that Eric should continue to concentrate on fantasy tracks that set a certain theme. Like Fern Bay club tracks, Aston F1 style tracks, etc.
Thank you for the information.
However, please don't post here unless you are a member of a competing MoE team.
If you do notice problems, please PM an Admin.
Make sure you post who's lap it was when posting a protest. The leader lap or your car's lap.
Is that a protest?
If you want to ask us to keep an eye on them or ask them to move over, get on irc and ask us there please. I only check this thread about once every 30 minutes.
Try using MRPEdit to make the file smaller for upload.
Protest Denied.
After review by two administrators, this incident is viewed as an accident and not a deliberate attempt to shortcut the chicane in order to save time. No other car was damaged or seemingly even slowed by the 04 car leaving the track and reentering.
The driver of the 04 car should have used more caution because of the known flat tire. However, this could be said about every off track excursion whether caused by a flat tire or not.
This was worth reviewing. Thankyou for bringing it to our attention.
Last edited by Hallen, .
What the heck were you doing drinking coffee when you were trying to go out for your first drive? There are no points for style.
Be careful out there
Man, this will be nice for marshaling races. Especially if we can do some of the admin commands for DT penalties, etc.
Nice work!
Nice work!
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG