lol, yeah, you sure don't see many 1 liter cars here in the US, do you? You see plenty on motorcycles though
I guess that small of an engine moving that much weight (relatively speaking) would force you into a high torque at low rev engine. Otherwise, you would be tac'ing out just to get the car moving.
No, at 5500rpm for peak hp if you want to be exact.
The point is, torque higher than hp does not = diesel, nor does a low reving engine.
My BMW 323i inline 6 cylinder has 170hp and 181ft/lbs of torque and I guarantee you it is not a diesel.
I have been meaning to ask this before:
Bob, how do you come up with the torque curves for LFS cars? You can't do it with just the peak stated values can you?
I have been meaning to ask this before:
Bob, how do you come up with the torque curves for LFS cars? You can't do it with just the peak stated values can you?
Thanks again Bob for this wonderful tool.
Have you given in thought to a combined setup view that shows the combined effects of your spring, anti-roll bar, and damper settings? Or does that not make sense?
Another thought is the effects of differential settings on handling, under steer and over steer when cornering.
Have you given in thought to a combined setup view that shows the combined effects of your spring, anti-roll bar, and damper settings? Or does that not make sense?
Another thought is the effects of differential settings on handling, under steer and over steer when cornering.
You're a girl, aren't you?
A guy would have a list
1) Water
2) Shade
3) Sex
4) Sleep
5) Sex
6) Making a signal fire
7) Sex
8) Sleep
9) What's on cable tonight?
10) Sex
So you see, sex is not the last thing we would worry about. It isn't the first in that situation, but certainly not the last... well, it is the last thing too in the list, but you get the point.
lol, I can just see Tristan when he is 70 years old. Cussing about those danged memory implants..."Back in my day, people remembered things for real, with their own brain cells. None of this mamby pamby hardware stuff. Real men work hard to memorize things and keep them in their own danged brain cells. Hell, we even had to look up phone numbers on our cell phones we couldn't just blink an eye and pull it out of our internal SD card."
Face it Tristan, some of this is just technology moving forward. It is not a grand conspiracy to deprive you of the pleasure of shifting. The whole point is to give the driver control over the equipment. If you can have complete control without a whole lot of extraneous actions, then it is generally better. Will shifting take less skill... probably. Will that now freed up concentration and time translate into other skills that allow you to go faster? Probably.
(btw, I much prefer the manual method myself. It is just fun. But it is not the way of the future and there are "better" things coming)
Don't worry so much about keeping the negative camber that low. It is very common for a production based race car to use -3.0° camber on the front tires.
I find that with reasonable power locking and very low coast locking and no preload, there is too much difference in reaction to throttle between the two states. In other words, I coast into a corner and the car tucks. You have to be ready with throttle to counteract the oversteer. But, when you get on the power, the higher power locking causes understeer... which is what you want to a degree. But it just doesn't feel balanced. There is too much difference between coast and power locking making the car twitchy. A steady state of turn in or track out is never achieved. It is easily fixed by bumping up the coast lock a bit and adding a touch of preload.
This probably has more to do with my driving style than a deficiency in the setups though. The nice thing about those sets is that you can really feel the difference in the differential settings, even when you are only making small changes. I was able to get the LX6 set to balance nicely for my driving style with just a couple of minor changes to the diff settings. This is one of those things that really highlights just how good LFS physics and car models are.
You would be surprised at some of the sudden movements.
If I understand what you mean by a flybar, then modern helicopters don't use them because of the number of rotors in the system and because of hydraulics used move the surfaces. But, one the original production helicopters, the Hiller H-23, used a separate wing setup on a bar connected to the control system to affect the rotor attitude.
Most modern helicopters used in the military have some form of heading hold functionality. I know the Blackhawk does. It makes it easier to hold a hover. The Navy uses features like this plus hover altitude hold for hoist operations.
All turbine helicopters use an automated fuel control system to manage engine RPM and rotor RPM (both are in vastly different ranges of course, but they must remain constant. Then engine won't wind down until you shut it off unlike what you hear in a lot of movies)
Even the current reciprocating engined Robinson R22 uses a pretty good power management system that greatly relieved the pilot of manual throttle control for the most part.
Yes, there are. There is a full gamut of stabilization systems as well as fully coupled navigation/autopilot systems.
Is it cheating? Hmmm, well let me put it this way: If I am getting shot at, I want to use all my resources to manage my aircraft and fight better, not to just keep the greasy side of the aircraft pointed down. Automated systems free the pilot to concentrate on what is important.
But, for the purposes of LFS... use a wheel and pedal set
Do you have any other old controllers laying about, maybe an old Microsoft Sidwinder joy stick or something? If so, you can easily fix that shifter bounce problem. I removed a microswitch from an old joystick and soldered it onto the board in my DFP when I ran into that problem. Works like a charm.
It doesn't solve the problem of it being a pain to setup. That is solved with a semi-permenent setup for the wheel and pedals.
Well, he is using a joy stick instead of a wheel in the first place. Simulating a real environment is not a high priority.There are situations in the real world where cars that would normally require a throttle blip and clutching on down shifts were modified to use a button to do the blip. If the sanctioning body OK's it, then it is a go. Not a big deal.
If you can figure out how to make the scripts do an auto blip for you... that's your prerogative. It is kind of like finding a technological solution to a problem in a real car.
The biggest problem is that it sounds like you are driving in pick up races on busy servers. There is no commitment from some people in races like that. They wreck in turn 1 and start spamming for a restart. You just have to laugh at them and carry on. The race will most likely be a short one anyway.
There are two ways to avoid this.
1) Race in leagues. T1 incidents still happen, but it is more rare and there is usually a way to punish stupid behavior.
2) Join a good team that manages a server and get active. Police your own server and try to keep it as clean as you can.
This kind of crap happens in real racing too, especially pro racing. Just look at BTCC for one example. They are all short sprint races and getting as many spots on the start is critical. It leads to nasty things in the first few corners pretty regularly.
There are two ways to avoid this.
1) Race in leagues. T1 incidents still happen, but it is more rare and there is usually a way to punish stupid behavior.
2) Join a good team that manages a server and get active. Police your own server and try to keep it as clean as you can.
This kind of crap happens in real racing too, especially pro racing. Just look at BTCC for one example. They are all short sprint races and getting as many spots on the start is critical. It leads to nasty things in the first few corners pretty regularly.
Fixed that for you
Sounds like your Dad is using a style that derived from the need to double clutch. It doesn't matter either way. Being smooth is the most important part. However, you have to have the car engaged in gear before the corner entry. Even if you are careful letting the clutch out, the rear will grab, and around you go. Also, you need to use maintenance throttle through the corner and you can't do this with the car in neutral.
The only absolutely necessary thing to be fast is to insure that you have the car in the proper gear for exiting the corner.
However, using proper heel/toe technique in a car setup for it, you will be faster than not using it. Most cars will benefit from using heel/toe and you would be sightly slower in those cars if you were not using it (for most of us though, it wouldn't matter. Only really skilled people can demonstrate the difference). Yes, if the car is setup to not use heel/toe, you will probably be just as fast.
I personally think that you do have more control using heel/toe. But that is my opinion.
Yes, I am not arguing that locking a wheel will bog the engine down if you don't have the clutch disengaged. However, what I am saying is one of two things
1) It is too easy to bog the engine down. There should seemingly be more "slop" in the system or there is something missing. I think the engine inertia increase has helped to a degree. I think possibly modelling the torsional twisting of driveshafts, guibos, subframes, diff mounts and tranny mounts might also help a bit.
2) The locking power of the brakes are too high. Even with reasonable values in the brake settings, it seems that rear wheels lock too easily. This could be because of aggressive downshifting, but I don't think so. If anything, aggressive downshift makes things better rather than worse. Even with setting the bias very far forward, you still have this problem. (this might be related to logetudinal tire grip issues too??)
It mostly does happen when you are turning even just the slightest amount.
Anyway, it just seems unnatural to me. It is totaly subjective on my part and it might simply be because of whacked out settings for the car.
I think the losing the locked diffs entirely is unrealistic. They do get used in the real world. But, it would be nice to force people into using more reasonable setups for the cars.
Also, heel/toe doesn't necessarily literally mean heel.
The most common practice that I have seen and heard described is a more rolling motion with your foot.
You brake with the ball of your foot in the lower right corner of the brake pedal. Your foot should overhang the gas pedal. (This is where it is critical to have the right brake pedal height otherwise you end up applying gas when you are braking because the outside of your foot hits the gas.)
When you are ready to blip, clutch, roll your foot using the lower or mid outside of your foot to blip the throttle, change gears, and declutch. You must maintain steady pressure on the brake pedal without lifting up on it. If you lift up, you will get very jagged braking and risk a lot of lockups when you press back down again.
The main point here is that you do not need to rotate your heel over the gas pedal and kick down with your leg. That method is valid too, but it is not used as much as the rolling method (from what I have seen and heard). I think the actual heel method requires either a wide gap in pedals or very small feet.
I have my pedals about 2.5 inches apart. This is about the same as my real car. It is close enough to do the rolling method for me with my foot size. This method does pretty much require shoes (or "house" shoes like I use) of some sort. Otherwise, your foot gets very sore from holding a lot of pressure on the corner edge of the brake.
The most common practice that I have seen and heard described is a more rolling motion with your foot.
You brake with the ball of your foot in the lower right corner of the brake pedal. Your foot should overhang the gas pedal. (This is where it is critical to have the right brake pedal height otherwise you end up applying gas when you are braking because the outside of your foot hits the gas.)
When you are ready to blip, clutch, roll your foot using the lower or mid outside of your foot to blip the throttle, change gears, and declutch. You must maintain steady pressure on the brake pedal without lifting up on it. If you lift up, you will get very jagged braking and risk a lot of lockups when you press back down again.
The main point here is that you do not need to rotate your heel over the gas pedal and kick down with your leg. That method is valid too, but it is not used as much as the rolling method (from what I have seen and heard). I think the actual heel method requires either a wide gap in pedals or very small feet.
I have my pedals about 2.5 inches apart. This is about the same as my real car. It is close enough to do the rolling method for me with my foot size. This method does pretty much require shoes (or "house" shoes like I use) of some sort. Otherwise, your foot gets very sore from holding a lot of pressure on the corner edge of the brake.
I can live with that.
I think the most important thing we can do to avoid clutch over heating is to make sure our gear ratios are set pretty closely. It takes a lot more work to fry the clutch if your gear ratios are setup correctly.
Just another data point for future consideration.
I setup an XRG with power, weight, suspension and gearing like my real life BMW E46 3 Series.
In less than 5 laps, the clutch was over heating. I used the exact gear ratios and diff ratio from the real car. The clutch does slip a lot between shifts. This can be minimized by very carefully insuring that the clutch is all the way out before touching the gas. This is not realistic because I can shift much more aggressively in the real car with no problems. The gear ratios ove a street car are very wide and this causes the RPM's to drop a lot and this seems to lead to more slilpping in the clutch on gear changes.
I do track my real car. I do 20 minute sessions around a 2 mile, 12 turn track. I do not heel/toe because of problems with my brake pedal travel so you would expect that this would add more heat to the clutch. I do heel/toe with LFS.
I think the clutch travel in LFS does contribute some to the over heating because the initial engagement to fully engaged range seems too long.
Thanks for listening Scawen, and a big thumbs up on this latest release.
Last edited by Hallen, .
Dude, strike two!
You should wish for your wife to look like <insert favorite super model here> and to be infinitely wealthy. Then you could go race real cars.
+1 on the direction of the changes Scavier has made (in general). I think they jumped the gun on the look function (which then got fixed), but in principle I agree with it. But the mirrors need to be better first.
Now I just need to get longer screws from my ECCI pedals so I can raise up the brake pedal for better heel/toe shifting (or is that heal/tow?:tilt
I was hoping the engine inertia would help with the problem. I think you are right, it has helped. I have been trying it out with LSD setting now too. I only brought the issue up because I wnated to point out one of the reasons, however unrealistic, that locked diffs get use.
I think... hope... that patch Y will allow us to use LSD's and make locked diffs a thing of the past.
I agree with your thinking on this, although I don't know enough to suggest LSD clutch settings.
However, the reason I end up using a locked diff sometimes is the engine bog down problems. You hit your brakes, the engine bogs down, and you end up with this weird skid problem. It only happens on LSD cars and usually only happens if you are turning just a little bit (ie trail braking or a slight bend in the brake zone). It is not so bad if you are going perfectly straight.
I try to use LSD (the diff that is) whenever I can, but I find in the GTR cars, even with setups I have made from scratch using some of Bob's tools, I still have this strange braking problem. I have tried reducing the amount of brakes to the point where you can't lock up the tires, I have tried moving the brake bias mostly to the front, which helps, but also severely handicaps you in a race. Nothing really works effectively, so I end up using a locked diff.
However, the reason I end up using a locked diff sometimes is the engine bog down problems. You hit your brakes, the engine bogs down, and you end up with this weird skid problem. It only happens on LSD cars and usually only happens if you are turning just a little bit (ie trail braking or a slight bend in the brake zone). It is not so bad if you are going perfectly straight.
I try to use LSD (the diff that is) whenever I can, but I find in the GTR cars, even with setups I have made from scratch using some of Bob's tools, I still have this strange braking problem. I have tried reducing the amount of brakes to the point where you can't lock up the tires, I have tried moving the brake bias mostly to the front, which helps, but also severely handicaps you in a race. Nothing really works effectively, so I end up using a locked diff.
It depends on what you buy. I know with my ECCI pedals, you can buy a set that works through your DFP or G25, or you can buy the type that are a stand alone USB controller of their own. I started with the former, and upgraded to the latter.
I am sure ACT labs is similar.
lol, I don't know what game it is that he is playing there but in a real car, if you jab on the brakes like he is doing there, you are going to spin. Or, at the minimum, be locking up every single time.
Game pedals make it hard to heel toe. The brake pedal level is always lower than the gas pedal when braking and the brake is way too soft over its travel.
Adapt and overcome!
And just to clear things up with the DFP POV button. The POV buttons cannot be programmed to do two key presses and two key releases. If you don't do the key releases, the view will simply turn 90 one way... and the view will stay there. You cannnot get back to view forward again. If you do the key releases, the view will just rapidly cycle from side to front to side and back again very quickly.
I don't think this is a bug in LFS, I suspect it is how the POV button works. It is odd, but that is the way it is.
It works fine to do one key press and release. You hold down the POV button, the view turns, you release the button and the view returns to the front. So, a separte key for 90° would be usable, but the combined keys as they are now cannot work.
I am trying to figure out an LFS script to make this work now, but I am unfamiliar with the commands so it will take some learning.
I don't think this is a bug in LFS, I suspect it is how the POV button works. It is odd, but that is the way it is.
It works fine to do one key press and release. You hold down the POV button, the view turns, you release the button and the view returns to the front. So, a separte key for 90° would be usable, but the combined keys as they are now cannot work.
I am trying to figure out an LFS script to make this work now, but I am unfamiliar with the commands so it will take some learning.
I don't know where to put this, since it is really not a bug, it is not a physics problem, it is sort of an interface problem... so I put it here.
Please reconsider the look function for 90° and 45°. Keep the 45° view, but please map a separate key for the 90° view. A POV control doesn't seem to allow mapping a double key press for a 90° view.
The problem is simple. If you look at the side mirrors on the XRG for example. You can see an object like a cone directly behind the car. You should not be able to see a short object that is perfectly centered behind the car with the side mirror. The side mirror is not adjustable for angle. You can't see objects, like cars, that are along side you right up past the 90° mark. You also can't see objects that are beside you and a bit back. You can completely lose cars for seconds at a time when they are in the right place. You have no idea where they are, especially if they drop straight back from you they don't reappear until they are well clear of the back of your car. This makes things very difficult. The 90° look is a feature that should be easily accessible until the mirrors work more like real mirrors. If mirrors were adjustable so that they work like a real car mirror, I could see making it more difficult or impossible to do a 90° look.
Thanks for all your work on this game. It is the best.
Please reconsider the look function for 90° and 45°. Keep the 45° view, but please map a separate key for the 90° view. A POV control doesn't seem to allow mapping a double key press for a 90° view.
The problem is simple. If you look at the side mirrors on the XRG for example. You can see an object like a cone directly behind the car. You should not be able to see a short object that is perfectly centered behind the car with the side mirror. The side mirror is not adjustable for angle. You can't see objects, like cars, that are along side you right up past the 90° mark. You also can't see objects that are beside you and a bit back. You can completely lose cars for seconds at a time when they are in the right place. You have no idea where they are, especially if they drop straight back from you they don't reappear until they are well clear of the back of your car. This makes things very difficult. The 90° look is a feature that should be easily accessible until the mirrors work more like real mirrors. If mirrors were adjustable so that they work like a real car mirror, I could see making it more difficult or impossible to do a 90° look.
Thanks for all your work on this game. It is the best.
I did some more testing last night on the clutch slipping/heating/clutch pedal travel thing.
I found that I could make shifts in the XRG and LX4 that did not burn up the clutch. It basically comes down to making very sure that the clutch is all the way out before putting any pressure on the gas pedal and then carefully rolling the gas in. It is slower shifting this way and it might be realistic... but I am not too sure about that.
If you apply any gas at all prior to having the clutch all the way out, the clutch will slip and generate heat. This would be normal except that the slipping phase seems to last too long and heats the clutch much more than you would expect.
The other thing I noticed, and this is where I could be completely wrong, but I noticed that the heat generation was really random. On some stints, the clutch heated up right away and became undrivable.
In other cases, I could not get the clutch to heat up even when being really aggressive on the shifts and applying throttle more quickly. This part has me a bit concerned.
I found that I could make shifts in the XRG and LX4 that did not burn up the clutch. It basically comes down to making very sure that the clutch is all the way out before putting any pressure on the gas pedal and then carefully rolling the gas in. It is slower shifting this way and it might be realistic... but I am not too sure about that.
If you apply any gas at all prior to having the clutch all the way out, the clutch will slip and generate heat. This would be normal except that the slipping phase seems to last too long and heats the clutch much more than you would expect.
The other thing I noticed, and this is where I could be completely wrong, but I noticed that the heat generation was really random. On some stints, the clutch heated up right away and became undrivable.
In other cases, I could not get the clutch to heat up even when being really aggressive on the shifts and applying throttle more quickly. This part has me a bit concerned.
I know how to shift. I know how to heal toe. It is not a problem for me. I was using proper technique while testing this, trust me.
It could be something to do with the clutch pedal travel that I have compared to a G25. I use ECCI pedals and they are quite a bit bigger, more stout and have longer pedal throws.
Edit: And I think it is a bug, not a feature enhancement. It (in my opinion) is not working as expected. It is a good feature overall, it just has a few glitches to work out.
On the clutch situation.
My thinking is that the pressure plate springs are not strong enough. The clutch should engage more strongly against the flywheel. The clutch acts like it is already worn down to the nubs.
If I shift the XRG like I do my real car, the Engine RPMs stay high, and then slowly work down to the lower level and this is after I have let the clutch all the way out. This does not happen on my real car even at the track when I am shifting rapidly. Once I have the clutch all the way out, the engine RPMs get drug down quickly to the level the transmission is at. There is minimal clutch slipping going on.
I haven't found a way to shift the XRG without burning up the clutch in a short time. I am using a clutch pedal with auto clutch off.
My thinking is that the pressure plate springs are not strong enough. The clutch should engage more strongly against the flywheel. The clutch acts like it is already worn down to the nubs.
If I shift the XRG like I do my real car, the Engine RPMs stay high, and then slowly work down to the lower level and this is after I have let the clutch all the way out. This does not happen on my real car even at the track when I am shifting rapidly. Once I have the clutch all the way out, the engine RPMs get drug down quickly to the level the transmission is at. There is minimal clutch slipping going on.
I haven't found a way to shift the XRG without burning up the clutch in a short time. I am using a clutch pedal with auto clutch off.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG