I have an X700 PCIE (16x). Pentium 3GHz, 1.5GB RAM HT enabled.
I installed the drivers that came out in December and my frame rate dropped a lot. If I use the look function to turn my head to the left, frame rates jump way up (from 40 to 100+). But straight ahead, frame rates were down to around 40. They had been right around 70 with the older drivers. (The look function also had the same affect with the old X300 GPU that I had before??)
I have vertical synch turned on, AA and AF set to max values. With the newer drivers, changing AA and AF settings in the driver made absolutly no difference inside LFS. The frame rate never picked up.
I rolled back my drivers and everything returned to what it was before.
I also always turn off the ATI error detection stuff. It seemed to slow things down and make them unstable when switching to windowed mode in LFS.
I only use the control panel. I do not use the full ATI configuration software crap. I don't overclock.

Last edited by Hallen, Thu, 5 Jan 2006 16:54.

The X700 works fine for me right now. There are bugs in the current ATI drivers though. Use the ones from earlier this year, not the ones released in December, 2005.

I get 70+ frames per second most of the time with all the bells and wistles turned on in LFS. I have the verticle sync turned on. The X800 would probably be better, but the last time I checked, it was double the cost of an X700.

You did a reinstall of what? The profiler software and drivers?

I have the same problem, but worse. The wheel wanders while I am driving. It will reset center at any place on the wheel. I could have the wheel turned 90° to the left, but the car is driving straight.
If I center the wheel physically, and wiggle it back and forth, eventually it centers back up. If I do the same, but have the wheel turned, it will center up with the drivers almost anywhere. I can see hitches in the movement using DXTweak. The force locks for less than 900° also seem off center.
This is driving me nuts. I can't drive LFS at all, or any other game for that matter.
I did try reinstalling the drivers, but it did not seem to help.

I downloaded and installed the latest drivers, dated 11 December, 2005 (or there-abouts).

I do NOT recommend this update. Stick with the version released on 8/30/2005. At least if you have the X700 card or something similar.

I got a decrease in frame rate by about 30FPS, with all the same settings set. No matter what setting I used in the driver, LFS would NOT go above 42 FPS, unless I looked to the left. Then it would go up over 100. This is the same issue I had fought with my old X300 card (crappy, I know). I have the X700 now and it has been working fine with the drivers I mentioned above. The new drivers messed up the frame rate again. I did the full Catalyst install this time. I thought that the Catalyst interface may have something to do with it, plus it was annoying. I uninstalled Catalyst, but that did not help. As soon as I rolled back the driver, my frame rate came right back up.

Tire management can be a real challenge. That inside front tire will easily lock up and you may not even notice much of a performance problem. But, the tire will wear out. I set my brakes softer than I could have to avoid that lockup problem.

Thanks to all for racing today. It was a lot of fun.

Good job Ant!

The problem (if it really is a problem) that I see now between the XRG and the XFG is that the advantage on the straights that the XRG had before is mostly gone. It used to have almost a 5mph advantage down the BL1 back straight. It also accelerated faster. That is pretty much gone too. The XFG handles better in the corners. Its lighter weight allows it to grip better so you can carry more speed (which was also the case in S1).

The difference in the top hotlap times is what, almost two seconds? That tells me that it is not just the inability of some drivers to drive rwd cars. If the hotlap aliens can't milk more speed out of the XRG as compared to the XFG, then there is probably a performance difference between the two cars.

Quote from cpachmann :

i have a licens! But i had no idea that i had to login in the forum with the orinigal account. and i had no idea that if i login with another account i would be instantly accused! thats sad!

ps: i have no idea f* how to crack a game!

No, it is not sad. It is the way things work.
You walk down the street with a smoking gun in your hand, the police are going to stop you and ask about the dead guy with a bullet hole in his head just up the street.
Just create a new login using your LFS info, and you are golden. If you can't do that, then you are guilty as charged.
Some of us get upset about cracked versions because we want LFS to succeed at achieving its ultimate goals. People who use cracked versions are not supporting that effort.
Demo racers are fine, they are just evaluating or saving up money to buy.

I'll be there
Now, if that darned MRT will just go where I want it to go...

I had this major slow-down problem in GPL. It made the game play like it was in slow motion, then every once in a while, it would jump back to normal speed. It made it very hard to drive

The power settings are what fixed it. The CPU was going into some sort of slow, power-saving mode. When I turned all those options off, the problem went away.

Quote from J.P (GB) :

Errr maby the stupidest question yet but how do i tell if mines is 0.5p

Bottom left of the screen on startup will tell which version you are running. Look for 0.5P... not 0.5P2 or 0.5P9 or 0.5Q.
Good luck.

Shift+w should restore the sound quickly, but why it happens

It is definitely not a solid stop when you set 720. It is springy to me, but it is enough to let you know you are at the end of the travel. Don't let it bug you, if you are out there on the stops when racing, you are either turning around after a spin, or you are in an unrecoverable spin .

And they have to be clean laps run in Hotlap mode. You can't just post any lap from single player mode, it will be regected.

Quote from RichardTowler :

I class physics as the physics in the game, and what the car is told to be, each car has different values and that is why they handle different I would guess, and as different cars require different areas of the physics engine, certain flaws are exposed more in certain cars.

I am not sure if you said what I think you said, but the physics is the world of the game, like you say. Each car is different because... each car is different. Different weight, different suspension, different horsepower, cg, etc. The physics don't change for each car (from what I have read posted by the devs). (so in other words, I think I am agreeing with you)

Each car will tend to expose different aspects of the physics model. And I think this is one reason that it is difficult to fix certain problems. You can't just go and tweak a parameter here and there, you have to figure out what would really happen, and model it.
For example, lets say the slow speed tire physics is bad under certain conditions. I can't go in a just up the grip threashold for the tire. This would also affect the high speed grip, which seems to be fine right now.
I am not being very clear here, but I hope you get the point. Its late and I have posted way to many times to this thread... illepall goodnight.

Unfortunately guys, most of us are talking apples to Richard's oranges.
I just don't think he gets the point of LFS. This will be an on-going problem with reviews. You cannot spend a few months driving the tracks and trying the cars and really evaluate this phenomena. You will only get an analysis of the cars and the tracks.

It is fair to review the product now. It is an Alpha... but it is for sale. If you can buy it, it can be reviewed, no matter what the state is. The development model used by the LFS team is different than anything else out there, so there is bound to be confusion.

Quote from RichardTowler :

was meant to be taken in ermm jest, if thats the right word, nothing serious don't worry tried to make a point by maybe not done right eh

'Nuf said

Quote from RichardTowler :

spoken like a true gamer though? again this is the attitude I talk about, so its ok to have terrible visuals, terrible sounds etc, as long as the physics are half done and they say its meant to be a sim? (this is not thoughts on lfs, just to get a point across)

Visuals in a sim MEAN ALOT, not just graphics but the way the physics engine transfers feeling across to the player, this is why I compared to nr2003, because nr2003 does this extremely well for what it is.

Yes visuals mean a lot. I 100% agree. To me, it is most important to pick up the track features, braking points, turn-in points, and other visual cues that let you know where you are. Then the way the visuals react to what the car is doing is important too. I have driven (sort of) some very sophisticated simulators in my time, some of the best the world has to offer, and LFS does a marvelous job with the visuals. I think the car vibrations in GTR are way over-done. I get a headache after driving it for just a few minutes. LFS is somewhat customizable with the head tilt and lean settings and so-forth. I think this works pretty darned well.

Yes, there is some cheesy stuff in there too. The drivers suite and hands are not very good for example. But to me, this is eye candy. It does not hinder my ability to drive the sim. There is some atmosphere missing too, but again, to me, that does not detract from the driving. I finish a league race and I am dripping sweat, exhausted and exhilarated at the same time. What a blast. I have even jerked so bad a couple of times I actually ripped the wheel off of my desk because of unexpected accidents. That is how focused I get on the driving.

So, I guess I would disagree with you about the visuals in LFS. I think there is enough there now to make a very satisfying experience. I think that you have seen some wonderful stuff in other games and expect it to be in every game. I, on the other hand am willing to compromise a certain level of graphics for better online driving with physics that come much closer to realism than anything else I have driven. nr2003 is great, but I prefer road/sports car racing. (And don't tell me those cars don't have twitchy rear ends, they certainly do.) I like GPL, even though I only bought it two years ago, well after its hay-day. But I still prefer the types of cars in LFS. I got started with PS2 GT3 A-Spec, and it was fun for a while, most of the cars feel the same, and the feedback is poor, and there was no online mode, but it drove my interest enough to start searching out a better system. LFS has a way to go on a lot of levels, but getting there IS half the fun. I think we will just have to disagree about the level of the compromise Oh, and I do think it was fair of you to give it a 5/10, it is your scale after all. I just wish you would have explained it a bit more.

Quote from RichardTowler :

Gun, you might want to open your eyes and close your anus. But seriously, with that post you have just given yourself away as a typical 'nothing can touch what I like, I'am 100% right and the other is 100% wrong' that is so often seen in communities. You also try to distance yourself from the 'rest' at the bottom of your post, which is another typical thing to do, as a bonus you name GTR and rfactor differently

Hmm, now you go off on a personal attack. You published a review, you should have thicker skin than that.

Quote from RichardTowler :

If you think the only thing you can compare to LFS is GPL, you really have not lived, I'd say LFS can learn from even GT4 on the PS2. I'd also say comparing GPL means you are one of the old elite GPL players.

Gun was stating his opinion, just like you did in your "review". Why does that warrant an attack from you?

Quote from RichardTowler :

I'm not rating what LFS could be, I'am rating what LFS IS TODAY, that is the whole point of the review and as the development progresses I will keep coming back and doing further articles on the website about it.

OK, but lets work on your style a bit between here and there.

Quote from RichardTowler :

I'm not just a sim racer, i play all types of games, and I can see how far sim racing in general lags behind, racing sims are still quake 2 era, while unreal 3 engine is about to give it to everyone in the face, it is that far behind.

Good for you and spoken like a true gamer. To the rest of us, frame rate and accurate representation of the physics are much, much more important than eye candy. Sure, other games have lots of stuff that blows up, but we are not evaluating them here. Yes, we would like a better representation of the real world in the graphics, and we would like better sounds, but that is not really the point.

I think that what is disapointing is that you may have missed the whole point of this product, even though you have raced with us online.

Quote from Bob Smith :

There are no mentioned of the greatly improved physics, pit stops, or online driver changes that are now possible with S2.

He did mention the driver changes

I think the review does unnecessarily leave the reader with a negative impression of the program. The review does state his own opinion. The comment about the price is definitely his impression, as stated on this forum. It is his opinion and that is fine. However, MY opinion is that I have gotten way more value out of this product than it cost me. I cannot even begin to count the hours I have spent using the product, it leaves a huge smile on my face, every time. That's value. You can't compare that to the value that other "titles" might provide. But, that is my opinion.

After thinking about this for a while, I personally believe that a review should be an article that points out the perceived strengths and weaknesses of a product. It should be written from the point of view of current and potential customers. If the writer wants to state his/her opinion, they should say "In my opinion..." and fire away. This provides differentiation between an expert evaluation and a personal impression. This article has a lot of merritt. However, it could use about another 500 words to fully flesh out the points instead of leaving them hanging like they are.

I guess it is an insider thing. Those of us who are insiders can complain about different aspects of the product amongst ourselves with no problems (well a few red faces maybe ), but a review like this is like airing dirty laundry to the world. Not enough explanation for all the negative comments and not enough time spent on the up side.

It is very simple guys, just unzip 0.5P into a new directory structure and run Mecanik and/or Slick mod using this version of LFS. In this way, you will not save hotlaps to your normal 0.5Q spr directory negating the possibility of uploading bad files. I have a different profile for LFS Mec in my Logitech profiler software that launches the 0.5P version. It makes it really easy to keep the current version for real use, and the 0.5P version for use with Mec. No mess, no hassles and a lot of fun.

Please stop attacking Richard or Richards right to publish a review, it's not the point.

Most of the area's that he mentions are probably the areas that need work. I don't care about the bling-bling factor.

The rwd cars are quite drivable if you have them setup properly. Unless you have pushed the limits on a road course with a 500+ hp race car, you can't know how it will react on slow corners. They are difficult to drive, that is why only a few people make to the top level in real life. Having said that, there do seem to be a few things that are a bit off, but these things affect all cars, just in different ways. I think it is fair to point these things out.

Building a rating scale with numbers is virtually impossible. Most become horribly inflated over time. Everybody gets a 8-9/10 rating no matter how good or bad. You have effectively made your rating scheme a 2 scale scheme instead of a 10 scale scheme. I respect Richard for maintaining the integrity of his scale.

However, it would be nice to say just a bit more in the article about the community and how awesome the online racing can be. The cars behave the same all the time. They are predictable. Small changes in setup have noticeable affects and they behave the way you would expect. All of this is pretty amazing.

There is a lot of people who will see a rating of 5/10 and not even bother to check further, they will just move on. That is too bad, for them. They need to read and understand that the reviewer was not condemning the game as bad. If Richard continues his reviews, maintains his integrity and honestly rates other games in the same way, then LFS will still come out looking great.

I had to post to say "Thanks" for doing the mod. I created a BMW 323i (E46) tonight. This is the car that I drive IRL. I think I came pretty close to the right feeling in the car. The HP and torque are about right, but man is it tough to get it there. Lots of trial and error. I think I will need to lower the weight some and put a passenger in the back to get the weight distribution correct. Anyway, I had a blast with it.
Thanks Again.

Cool, I understand a bit better now.
Thanks for pulling out the data, very interesting. About 4100 LFS licensed users in the US. Pretty lame. Gonna have to work on that some. I need more racers in my time zone

Hmmm, something funky here.
There are about 300,000,000 people in the US. If you multiply that by ~3%, you get about 9,000,000 licenced LFS users. I think that is a tad off. I think your are trying to divide apples by oranges.
I look at it this way
(x/l)/(c/w)= (x/c)
where x is the number of licenced racers from a country
l is the total number of lfs licenses
c is the number of people in a country
w is the world population

x and l are unknown.
I think if you do the algebra, it comes out with something other than what you wanted.

I think you must have the total number of licenses to make this work.
How about using that number of 30,000 that showed up in one of the posts about the English LFS meeting?
Or, maybe I am just not understanding your method.

I voted GT/Endurance... Like Bob's says LeMans! I love the US version, the ALMS. Great cars, great drivers, pure sports car gusto with the added challenge of long races.

Saloon/Touring comes a close second for me. I like seeing cars I can recognize, somewhat close to the street version.

I also love F1.

Rally is not a big thing here in the US. I do agree with Tweak that it is fun to watch and the drivers are... absolutly looney. Their skill is unmatched. If I were a co-driver, I would be barfing all over the cockpit, every race (and probably making other messes too out of fear). The problem I have with rally is the fans. Standing right next to the track, on the outside of a corner... just waiting to get bug splattered on the windscreen. They are more crazy than the drivers. What is it? A macho thing? See who can reach out a steal a windshield wiper as the car slides past?

Thanks for the tips. But I wasn't commenting on my ability to recognize the whip back. I do see it coming and react, but the FF is very strong at that point for some reason making it difficult to move the wheel fast enough to recover. Going into the slide, the wheel moves easily to correct. It is the counter-correction where the FF gets too strong.

I have no problems with most of the road cars and the LRF cars although the FF is stiff in their case too. It is mostly the race cars that are a major problem for me. I think it is mostly because the whip back on the race cars is so violent. You have to spin the steering wheel quickly to catch the car once it decides to regain grip (which can be a long, long time in the XRR. Correct, correct again, hold it, starts to grip, recover, it spins more, correct, then whip back, around you go in the opposite direction...).