Quote from rainspecialist :

i no this is noobish but whats a bfm? q nd i love the xrt like a dear butif the bfm is a race car then hell yea! but i dont really care because im gettin s2 4 christmas

Please, go back to school. I know it will be tough now that you are 23, but getting that 6th grade diploma is so important.

Congrats on getting the S2 license from Santa.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The Vette was nice (assuming you meant Niels') but not something I'd want to drive very often really. The 79 mods didn't feel very good to me. Haven't tried a Caterham mod for a while, and certainly not with RealFeel as yet. I'll have a go at some point and see what I think. But FFB is only part of the problem, and there are flaws in the basic engine that need resolving before I can get much enjoyment out of rTractor.

Realfeel doesn't seem to be much different with the Caterham than with the Vette. It is a better thing than stock, but still not very good.

I thought the Vette's suspension was way too soft. The amount of squat and dive is way, way too much compared to the real car. I also couldn't figure out why the cockpit instrument panel was just a bunch of blurred gauges. It is probably one of those esoteric settings in an ini file or something that I don't know about.

The thing that is really bothersome in rFactor, and is also a factor in LFS, is how the tires behave when they lose grip. Simple understeer is the best way to feel this. If you go into a corner just a tad hot, and you start to understeer, your front end loses all grip until you slow way down, well below the speed that you would normally enter the corner. If while you are slowing down you enter more steering angle, which would be normal since you are now overshooting your turn in point, the car just won't respond. In my real car (and this may be just my car) if you understeer going into a corner like that, you still have some control. Yes, you have to back out of it as much as you can, but you can still turn the wheel more and get more bite. You start scrubbing the tires and you are heating them up quickly, but you will get more response. And then once you slow down enough, the grip gradually comes back and you stop scrubbing. With rFactor, and to a much smaller degree LFS, you just keep right on sliding until the tires decide that they have grip again. This behavior makes it very hard to do a late apex entry into a corner. You are at a slower initial speed, but the initial steering angle is a bit higher. This seems to cause the tires to break away immediately and you lose any hope of taking the corner quickly.

I have been driving rFactor a bit more lately because somebody released a pretty good version of my home track (they call it Vanport, but it is really Portland International). It really helps you notice some of the oddities of the game when you are driving on a track you are very familiar with.

Scawen said there were "physics" updates. He didn't limit them to just the things he mentioned. I expect (guessing here) that there will be some tire physics updates and other things. We will know soon enough.

Quote from bbman :

I've read the thread, and my post wasn't a tip in any way, it was pointing out you were wrong by having it on button after all...

Nope. I have not had it on button since I got my clutch pedal 2 years ago. Whatever I felt before was an anomoly and I can't go back in time to investigate it. It is what it is today.

Quote from bbman :

Maybe you really had it on button after all? I remember Scawen made button-clutch useless just some patches ago...

Quote from Apoc112 :

Hallen, you should definitely double-check your LFS settings and your wheel's drivers... if everything is working, you should have a full range of clutch motion, and this should be reflected in LFS... if you're in the options, your clutch movement should be axis represented by the blue (?) bar in the lower right corner.

it's pretty well-represented in the game, at least based on the manual cars i've driven.

Does nobody read anymore? Thanks for the tips guys, but please read the whole thread first next time.

Quote from 98LS1 :

If i tack it up to like 2-3k and feather the clutch it just dies.

Yep. I think this will be different with the "more engine inertia" that Scawen mentioned in the video. It seems that right now the engine, or flywheel, does not have enough inertia to allow feathering of the clutch at lower RPMs.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Well, the amount of slip you impose on a clutch from starting with a manual, especially on a hill is what I meant mostly. That's where the majority of the slip takes place, and of course with an auto there's none. That starting slip adds up to much more than the slip of an auto's bands by quite a lot.

Yes, of course. No argument there.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

It depends on how hard you're accelerating. If you're driving normally, there is still plenty of slack that's taken up by the converter during a shift, which is why rpms tend to stay almost nearly constant under light throttle acceleration, at least until you hit 3rd. Of course, if you floor it then the converter is stalled constantly and there is more clutch slip. Unless as you pointed out you have the trans tuned for instant shifts, which is always better regardless of driving style.

There would be less clutch slip if the converter were stalled. Stall RPM is quite high on modern transmissions though.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Actually, that would only be a fluid coupling technically, which is different, and much much crappier. Torque converters use some other tricks to actually be quite efficient at transferring torque, having to do with the housing itself and geometery.

Yes, of course. But I was trying to be simplistic. There is still no direct mechanical connection between the engine and the transmission.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

There is no neutral phase per se. It's only a matter of engaging one clutch, and sometimes disengaging another simultaneous to lock different parts of a planetary set - either the sun, the ring, or the planets. Totally locked tends to be 3rd, since locking the whole thing means 1:1 which is generally 3rd in typical boxes. But yes, under full throttle a 1->2 shift would incur some slippage since you're dragging the engine back down by changing ratios.

Of course neutral is a figure of speech to illustrate being between one gear and another. It doesn't change the fact that there will be clutch slippage every shift otherwise there would be little point in having the clutches there in the first place.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

They generally only lock up past certain speed, so in the city it's not usually an issue. Not to mention the fact that the locking usually occurs (by design) when there is little load (with the exception of nearing top speed in 3rd or 4th at WOT, no trans I know of locks up in any gear lower than 3rd), and therefore slippage is minimal.

Modern transmissions can lock at any speed.

3rd gear is 1:1? Man, you are living in the dark ages (or are looking at US designed cars). My E32 was a 5 speed transmission with a locking converter back in 1994. Newer cars have as many as 6 or 7 gears in their automatics.

I don't have any facts to back up my assertion. I just know that automatic transmission are wear parts on modern cars and they will fail sooner or later. I have 140k miles on my car and it has the original clutch in it. I doubt I would have gotten that out of an automatic (but mostly because of BMW's stupid "lifetime" fluid policy.)

Quote from Hallen :

I will have a go when I get home and if I am wrong, I will happily eat my words.

Yum, yum. It's a good thing I don't use foul words

Yep, you both were right. The clutch now has a bunch of range to it. It does seem to start a bit to low, and does not fully engage until the pedal is too high, but it definitely feathers.
I must have tried it prior to patch X or something. It was definitely binary before.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Band clutches are a bit of a different story anyway; most of the slippage happens at the torque converter. But yes, by definition there is some slip but nothing compared to a manual transmission.

I know, we are way off topic, but I am having fun with this.

It all depends on how you shift your manual. If you feather the gear in slowly with lots of gas, then yes, a manual will slip more. But, on average, I would bet the automatic clutches will slip more than a manual clutch. I don't think the torque converter will slip much. It will probably slip no more than it would when you are fully engaged in a gear and powering down the road. In other words, about 5%.

The torque converter is just two big fans stuck in fluid. One is turned by the engine, and the other is connected to the driveshaft going through the transmission. If you are changing gears and the transmission is essentially in neutral, the transmission side of the torque converter will speed up with RPM's of the engine (assuming there is little or no fuel cut to the engine). As the clutch starts to engage, the engine RPM will be brought back down relatively slowly until the clutch is fully engaged and then the RPM will start increasing again assuming you have not lifted off the throttle. That period of time where the RPM is dropping is the time where the clutches are slipping. The smoother the shift, the more slipping you get. This is why it can be good to get performance software for you slush box. The software will typically shorten the slipping time to allow for faster shifts and this in turn reduces the clutch wear. It will also give you more of a jerk on each shift.

The real problem area can be with the transmission that use a final clutch to directly connect the engine to the drivshaft (a "lockup clutch") and bypasses the torque converter. This removes the inefficiencies of the torque converter and allows for better gas mileage when cruising. However, if you are constantly varying your throttle position, like if you are in traffic or rolling hills, the lockup clutch is constantly engaging and disengaging getting hotter and hotter and burning up clutch material. It is usually the first clutch to fail. It also does nasty things to the transmission fluid. This is why it is really important to change slushbox fluid regularly. It is why most cars have a way to turn off the lockup clutch for city driving or towing (two different Drive modes on the gear shift).

So there is my layman's understanding of all of this. Did I mention how much I hate slushboxes? I had to remove the one from my E32 and have it rebuilt ($3000) and then reinstalled it (all by myself) all because BMW has a stupid policy of a "lifetime" fill of transmission fluid.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Eric, Android is right my friend, I can use the clutch slip to launch any car perfectly, including the turbos. In fact, before the clutch heat coming in this patch, I would use it to build boost without bouncing off the limiter like a nutcase. I've used the slip to get perfect launches with the FZ50, with progressively less slip over about 3 seconds keeping the tires close to optimum long slip just by sound, and holding the engine at a given RPM just using the clutch. If anything, there's probably TOO wide a variance of slip over the range of pedal travel... That's probably OK though since we have no butt feel. Not sure what's happening over on your end, but something is sure wrong.

Well, I will try it again when I get home. I did try doing this multiple times. There is nothing wrong with my clutch pedal hardware. It is smooth and continuous with plenty of travel (ECCI). You did this with Auto clutch turned off, right?

If feathering is there, then it is a very, very short range. This might be accurate for full on race cars, but not for the street cars.

I will have a go when I get home and if I am wrong, I will happily eat my words.

Quote from AndroidXP :

I've added the replay above. Please have a look.

I can't look. I am at work. Thanks for putting it together though.

But, I am sure I understand what you are saying. Yes, an analog clutch pedal has a full range of motion that is detected and used by the program. But that is not what I am trying to talk about. See my post above.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Your clutch pedal is broken then. Turn on the pedal view (the bars in the lower right corner) and see if the blue bar is a on/off thingy or can be smoothly adjusted like the other bars. It's the latter for me, and that is the way it should be. I can slip the clutch all day long. In fact, I'll go record a replay now.

I can assure you that my clutch is not broken. Yes, I have pedal view on and I can see the analog clutch move through the whole range. But the simulated clutch (not the pedal) is either engaged or not engaged. There seems to be no pressure plate modeled that would allow for varing levels of contact.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Hello? Have you ever used the clutch with a clutch pedal? Of course it allows slippage and feathering in. Seriously.

Yes, I do have an analog clutch pedal and yes I have tried it. Hello?

I dare you to slip a clutch. Rev it up to 5k, try to feather the clutch in. You will either not be moving, or you will be spinning tires. There will be nothing in between.

Quote from 98LS1 :

Ive read a few posts and heard that in up and coming patches the clutch will be able to "stall". Only issue is, unless i tack it up to 5 grand and slip the clutch it will literally die. Will it be changed to where u can tack it up to like a real car?

You always could if you have a button mapped to a clutch or a clutch pedal.

The problem with the current implementation is that you cannot feather the clutch at all. It is either engaged or not engaged with no slipping in between. This is my impression of the current implementation and not confirmed by anything I have seen put out officially on this.

I hope with this release that there is some work done to the clutch to allow for slipping so that we can feather the clutch in. I suppose that there might have to be some automation there to for people who want/need to use a clutch button on their wheel since buttons are binary, on or off. I expect the Auto Clutch feature will handle it nicely.

The way I used to do it before I got a clutch pedal was I had a button mapped to the clutch. I still left auto clutch turned on since I still use paddle shifters. This method works pretty well and I expect it will continue to work well for people who do not have an analog clutch or who can't use and analog clutch.

Quote from J.B. :

I'm not sure why you think the rollbar can't twist? I've added another arrow in the picture to show how it is supposed to twist. It's the vertical bar Tristan was referring to. And I can assure you there are no torsion bars in the rockers. I've looked at the pictures and they are perfectly normal rockers, just as on any other race car.

Ah, OK. I see now. No, I wasn't thinking the vertical tube/bar there could twist. It looks like too solid of a piece to be able to twist like that. I was looking for some way that it could move that way without twisting and obviously, that just won't work.

I still don't really understand how that whole system works. It seems that it is only a semi independent suspension. What independent movement it does have is not damped in any way it seems. But, I have already proven that I am not seeing how this system works very well.

Quote from J.B. :

I think the way it works is that the main spring gets compressed whenever the total front axle load increases. But when one wheelload increases while the other wheelload decreases (as in cornering) then the main spring will stay where it is and roll will occur by twisting of the rollbar (marked in green below).

I'm quite sure there are no hidden dampers or springs in the rockers on that car. But in F1 they do in fact use that type arrangement (rotational dampers).

EDIT: Tristan was faster

Hmmmm, the part you have marked has no way to twist. If one side trys to move up or down independently, it would be stopped by the other side if the motion and to go through that part you marked. Plus, it looks like that part only pivots front to rear with the mono shock.

I still bet there are torsion bars mounted insided the "rockers". That would allow for independent movement of each wheel. That motion would happen prior to the motion being transmitted to the mono shock assembly. I am sure there is something I am missing here though.

I don't know what "vertical bars" Tristan is referring to.

Quote from J.B. :

Interesting, didn't realize the FBM was monoshock. What this means is that the spring rate has no effect on the roll rate. So the car can be soft when both wheels are loaded simultaneously and hard when rolling.

Why this is a good thing? Beats me. I think FBMW and F3 are the only ones who use it.

Another strange thing: it looks like the front rollbar is non-adjustable.

EDIT: oh wait, that would be what the spacers on that horizontal bit that the connecting rods are attached to are for.

If there were no other springs, then wouldn't it be like a solid axle (non-independent suspension)? It would only compress and rebound equally on both sides. If there was a deflection up on one side, there would be a corresponding force down on the other side. I think the pivot points where the rods attach to the frame might have some spring or tortion bar attached to them that we can't see. It is just a total guess on my part though. The main spring in the middle would work for both equal deflections and to compensate for downforce (guessing again).

Quote from Naix :

Have you ever 'clutch' with a keyboard ?
I'm not flamming(or complaining) at somebody in particular, and I know the meaning of this thread. I just want to point that to drive using a keyboard is not an advantage regarding a wheel. So, why make it harder on keyboard ?
The actual keyboard settings are OK for me (the clutch it's the only thing I put in automatic), and aren't easier than holding a wheel in his hands.

Hey man, I'm not bugging you, I just try to say that driving with the keyboard is enough hard and there is no need to make it harder and harder, IMO.

Cheers.

It will be no more difficult for a keyboarder than for a wheel driver.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Unless it has a torque converter

Nope, even with a torque converter.

How did we get here?

Quote from Shotglass :

i fail to see how that is in any way the same logic

The point is a wheel of some type is much better than a keyboard for driving. The plastic wheel with slow FFB is not perfect, but it is something.

Quote from Shotglass :

it can make a world of a difference if youre driving a dfp at 720 and need to countersteer fast while racing
also having a non pressure sensitive brake pedal changes heel and toe from something simple and intuitive into something somewhere between hit and miss and impossible

Yes, the more realistic the equipment is, the better the experience is overall. Plastic pedals with almost no resistance are going to be very hard to heal toe. I have a great set of pedals, and they are hard to heal toe. But, adversity is the mother I am sure we will figure out ways to fix it. The rubber ball under the brake pedal is probably the quickest and easiest way.
It ain't going to be perfect, but at least it is more realistic than a keyboard.

There is one pro driver in the US who can't bend his ankle to heal toe while driving his Porsche because of an old football (US Style) injury. He as a button installed on top of his sequential shifter that blips the throttle for him. He mashes the button when down shifting and an electric servo blips the throttle for him. He has to get an exeption to the rules to use it, but it works. I don't think this relates to what we are talking about, but it was interesting anyway.

Quote from Methyl Ethyl :

....especially since your daily driver is an AUTOMATIC....

lol, jokes on you dude. Automatic transmission have a lot more clutch slippage on shifts than a manual transmission does The smoother shifting an automatic is, the more clutch pack it burns up for every shift.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Did I notice a fastest line display in the video?
Or is that for AI tracking only?

Read this thread before you post. The answer... er... argument is there.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Hmm, i guess it will be kinda difficult to learn, gotta brake with the same foot and blip, a challenge definately but it will be the same for all, so...

If you are using a clutch pedal, yes. If you don't have a clutch pedal, leave auto clutch on, left foot brake, and blip the gas with your right foot. It is much easier that way.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

How am i suppose to blip the throttle with two pedal set? In order to properly execute the downshift you have to clutch in, change gear and blip the throttle with the heel and brake with toe at the same time and release the clutch. How are you suppose to do that without a clutch pedal, clutch on the button is so unreal and i never wanted to use it, so how will auto clutch work in that case, i must blip the throttle before i change the gear, but auto clutch engages itself when you already have pressed the gear paddle..

Don't worry, you can handle it. Just downshift and blip the gas at the same time. Every once in a while, you hit it too early and get a little jerk, but usually it works just fine.

I have been running LFS this way for as long as I have used LFS. I find that blipping the throttle myself gives you more control and keeps the rear wheels from locking up so much.

Yeah, the problem with heal-toe on pedal sets is usually the brake is much lower than the gas pedal when you are braking. This makes it hard to get you foot over the gas pedal to blip it.

I also find that I am much more awkward trying to brake with my right foot than my left when I am driving LFS. I have gotten so used to left foot braking and to using throttle at the same time to stabilize the car, that it makes things harder when I right foot brake.

And I do have ECCI pedals with the clutch. It is definitely better than the standard DFP pedals, but it is still difficult to heal toe. I will figure something out. I have been needing to do it anyway.

Quote from Huru-aito :

Ignition cut is what they use in real life, throttle cut isn't possible in most racing series since the rules often require mechanical throttle operation.. And no, they aren't the same thing

You are right, it is not the same thing. But it achieves the same results. They both unload the drive train by reducing/interrupting the power produced by the engine.