Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Eric, Android is right my friend, I can use the clutch slip to launch any car perfectly, including the turbos. In fact, before the clutch heat coming in this patch, I would use it to build boost without bouncing off the limiter like a nutcase. I've used the slip to get perfect launches with the FZ50, with progressively less slip over about 3 seconds keeping the tires close to optimum long slip just by sound, and holding the engine at a given RPM just using the clutch. If anything, there's probably TOO wide a variance of slip over the range of pedal travel... That's probably OK though since we have no butt feel. Not sure what's happening over on your end, but something is sure wrong.

Well, I will try it again when I get home. I did try doing this multiple times. There is nothing wrong with my clutch pedal hardware. It is smooth and continuous with plenty of travel (ECCI). You did this with Auto clutch turned off, right?

If feathering is there, then it is a very, very short range. This might be accurate for full on race cars, but not for the street cars.

I will have a go when I get home and if I am wrong, I will happily eat my words.

Quote from AndroidXP :

I've added the replay above. Please have a look.

I can't look. I am at work. Thanks for putting it together though.

But, I am sure I understand what you are saying. Yes, an analog clutch pedal has a full range of motion that is detected and used by the program. But that is not what I am trying to talk about. See my post above.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Your clutch pedal is broken then. Turn on the pedal view (the bars in the lower right corner) and see if the blue bar is a on/off thingy or can be smoothly adjusted like the other bars. It's the latter for me, and that is the way it should be. I can slip the clutch all day long. In fact, I'll go record a replay now.

I can assure you that my clutch is not broken. Yes, I have pedal view on and I can see the analog clutch move through the whole range. But the simulated clutch (not the pedal) is either engaged or not engaged. There seems to be no pressure plate modeled that would allow for varing levels of contact.

Quote from AndroidXP :

Hello? Have you ever used the clutch with a clutch pedal? Of course it allows slippage and feathering in. Seriously.

Yes, I do have an analog clutch pedal and yes I have tried it. Hello?

I dare you to slip a clutch. Rev it up to 5k, try to feather the clutch in. You will either not be moving, or you will be spinning tires. There will be nothing in between.

Quote from 98LS1 :

Ive read a few posts and heard that in up and coming patches the clutch will be able to "stall". Only issue is, unless i tack it up to 5 grand and slip the clutch it will literally die. Will it be changed to where u can tack it up to like a real car?

You always could if you have a button mapped to a clutch or a clutch pedal.

The problem with the current implementation is that you cannot feather the clutch at all. It is either engaged or not engaged with no slipping in between. This is my impression of the current implementation and not confirmed by anything I have seen put out officially on this.

I hope with this release that there is some work done to the clutch to allow for slipping so that we can feather the clutch in. I suppose that there might have to be some automation there to for people who want/need to use a clutch button on their wheel since buttons are binary, on or off. I expect the Auto Clutch feature will handle it nicely.

The way I used to do it before I got a clutch pedal was I had a button mapped to the clutch. I still left auto clutch turned on since I still use paddle shifters. This method works pretty well and I expect it will continue to work well for people who do not have an analog clutch or who can't use and analog clutch.

Quote from J.B. :

I'm not sure why you think the rollbar can't twist? I've added another arrow in the picture to show how it is supposed to twist. It's the vertical bar Tristan was referring to. And I can assure you there are no torsion bars in the rockers. I've looked at the pictures and they are perfectly normal rockers, just as on any other race car.

Ah, OK. I see now. No, I wasn't thinking the vertical tube/bar there could twist. It looks like too solid of a piece to be able to twist like that. I was looking for some way that it could move that way without twisting and obviously, that just won't work.

I still don't really understand how that whole system works. It seems that it is only a semi independent suspension. What independent movement it does have is not damped in any way it seems. But, I have already proven that I am not seeing how this system works very well.

Quote from J.B. :

I think the way it works is that the main spring gets compressed whenever the total front axle load increases. But when one wheelload increases while the other wheelload decreases (as in cornering) then the main spring will stay where it is and roll will occur by twisting of the rollbar (marked in green below).

I'm quite sure there are no hidden dampers or springs in the rockers on that car. But in F1 they do in fact use that type arrangement (rotational dampers).

EDIT: Tristan was faster

Hmmmm, the part you have marked has no way to twist. If one side trys to move up or down independently, it would be stopped by the other side if the motion and to go through that part you marked. Plus, it looks like that part only pivots front to rear with the mono shock.

I still bet there are torsion bars mounted insided the "rockers". That would allow for independent movement of each wheel. That motion would happen prior to the motion being transmitted to the mono shock assembly. I am sure there is something I am missing here though.

I don't know what "vertical bars" Tristan is referring to.

Quote from J.B. :

Interesting, didn't realize the FBM was monoshock. What this means is that the spring rate has no effect on the roll rate. So the car can be soft when both wheels are loaded simultaneously and hard when rolling.

Why this is a good thing? Beats me. I think FBMW and F3 are the only ones who use it.

Another strange thing: it looks like the front rollbar is non-adjustable.

EDIT: oh wait, that would be what the spacers on that horizontal bit that the connecting rods are attached to are for.

If there were no other springs, then wouldn't it be like a solid axle (non-independent suspension)? It would only compress and rebound equally on both sides. If there was a deflection up on one side, there would be a corresponding force down on the other side. I think the pivot points where the rods attach to the frame might have some spring or tortion bar attached to them that we can't see. It is just a total guess on my part though. The main spring in the middle would work for both equal deflections and to compensate for downforce (guessing again).

Quote from Naix :

Have you ever 'clutch' with a keyboard ?
I'm not flamming(or complaining) at somebody in particular, and I know the meaning of this thread. I just want to point that to drive using a keyboard is not an advantage regarding a wheel. So, why make it harder on keyboard ?
The actual keyboard settings are OK for me (the clutch it's the only thing I put in automatic), and aren't easier than holding a wheel in his hands.

Hey man, I'm not bugging you, I just try to say that driving with the keyboard is enough hard and there is no need to make it harder and harder, IMO.

Cheers.

It will be no more difficult for a keyboarder than for a wheel driver.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Unless it has a torque converter

Nope, even with a torque converter.

How did we get here?

Quote from Shotglass :

i fail to see how that is in any way the same logic

The point is a wheel of some type is much better than a keyboard for driving. The plastic wheel with slow FFB is not perfect, but it is something.

Quote from Shotglass :

it can make a world of a difference if youre driving a dfp at 720 and need to countersteer fast while racing
also having a non pressure sensitive brake pedal changes heel and toe from something simple and intuitive into something somewhere between hit and miss and impossible

Yes, the more realistic the equipment is, the better the experience is overall. Plastic pedals with almost no resistance are going to be very hard to heal toe. I have a great set of pedals, and they are hard to heal toe. But, adversity is the mother I am sure we will figure out ways to fix it. The rubber ball under the brake pedal is probably the quickest and easiest way.
It ain't going to be perfect, but at least it is more realistic than a keyboard.

There is one pro driver in the US who can't bend his ankle to heal toe while driving his Porsche because of an old football (US Style) injury. He as a button installed on top of his sequential shifter that blips the throttle for him. He mashes the button when down shifting and an electric servo blips the throttle for him. He has to get an exeption to the rules to use it, but it works. I don't think this relates to what we are talking about, but it was interesting anyway.

Quote from Methyl Ethyl :

....especially since your daily driver is an AUTOMATIC....

lol, jokes on you dude. Automatic transmission have a lot more clutch slippage on shifts than a manual transmission does The smoother shifting an automatic is, the more clutch pack it burns up for every shift.

Quote from DragonCommando :

Did I notice a fastest line display in the video?
Or is that for AI tracking only?

Read this thread before you post. The answer... er... argument is there.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Hmm, i guess it will be kinda difficult to learn, gotta brake with the same foot and blip, a challenge definately but it will be the same for all, so...

If you are using a clutch pedal, yes. If you don't have a clutch pedal, leave auto clutch on, left foot brake, and blip the gas with your right foot. It is much easier that way.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

How am i suppose to blip the throttle with two pedal set? In order to properly execute the downshift you have to clutch in, change gear and blip the throttle with the heel and brake with toe at the same time and release the clutch. How are you suppose to do that without a clutch pedal, clutch on the button is so unreal and i never wanted to use it, so how will auto clutch work in that case, i must blip the throttle before i change the gear, but auto clutch engages itself when you already have pressed the gear paddle..

Don't worry, you can handle it. Just downshift and blip the gas at the same time. Every once in a while, you hit it too early and get a little jerk, but usually it works just fine.

I have been running LFS this way for as long as I have used LFS. I find that blipping the throttle myself gives you more control and keeps the rear wheels from locking up so much.

Yeah, the problem with heal-toe on pedal sets is usually the brake is much lower than the gas pedal when you are braking. This makes it hard to get you foot over the gas pedal to blip it.

I also find that I am much more awkward trying to brake with my right foot than my left when I am driving LFS. I have gotten so used to left foot braking and to using throttle at the same time to stabilize the car, that it makes things harder when I right foot brake.

And I do have ECCI pedals with the clutch. It is definitely better than the standard DFP pedals, but it is still difficult to heal toe. I will figure something out. I have been needing to do it anyway.

Quote from Huru-aito :

Ignition cut is what they use in real life, throttle cut isn't possible in most racing series since the rules often require mechanical throttle operation.. And no, they aren't the same thing

You are right, it is not the same thing. But it achieves the same results. They both unload the drive train by reducing/interrupting the power produced by the engine.

Quote from deggis :

See the scene in the end of the video with FO8 going through the bumps... those really look like sharp bumps because it makes the car shake so much.

Altough there's a downside of more bumpy SO: now the other tracks will feel even more flat than they are now.

Are we back on the tracks being not bumpy again?

Watching the video, especially the UFR's at the end, every one of those bumps are already there on the track. I don't see anything unusual about the FB02 footage. It all looks like the normal SO tracks to me. SO does not need more bumps and really, the other tracks don't either. If you want to "see" the bumps better, then turn up the g-force effects.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Race clutches have stronger springs, and softer materials - they wear quickly, but they transmit the torque effectively. But it means that they are difficult to balance on the biting point, and feel like they are either on or off. They are also noisier, as the plates can flutter and vibrate when the clutch is disengaged.

Road clutches are designed to be long lasting and easy to use - softer springs, built in drive cushioning, and harder more predicable materials.

Add to that a race engine is peaky (not much torque/driveability low down), and they can be tricky to move away in.

Also, don't forget that the race flywheel is generally much lighter than in a standard car. This means less inertia when trying to mate the clutch plate to the flywheel which will make it much more difficult to pull away smoothly. I think this leads to more of the smoothness problems than the clutch material will. It also demands better rev matching on shifts because RPM will drop more quickly with the clutch in than it would on a street car.

Quote from JTbo :

When you slip clutch it produces heat and starts to slip. So for example if you shift really quick and be on throttle lot before clutch grips, you will get clutch slippage that heats it up.

And when it gets too hot, it won't grip anymore and will slip when you apply power. Kind of like when the brakes get too hot.

I wonder if Scawen added a gauge or indicator in the tire temp view for the clutch?

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

I presume someone has sent this to the SRT guys?

Not that I have seen. You are the best writer who has asked this question, whip out a story dude

Quote from robt :

Directions, not sure if they have compasses over in america

Uhg... next time I will quote the whole previous message so you have to scroll through all of it multiple times to see my one line question and you won't have the engery to post silly things anymore.

BTW, if you are using a system of South Azimuth then 0 ° (360° or 400° for you Gon people) is South, North is 180° (or 200°) and everything is backwards anyway, so my question is valid either way you look at it. (And no, I didn't need to look that up on Wiki)

So what is South, East and West?

Quote from STROBE :

Holy crap. I've been on and off this forum all day, and somehow I missed this until now.

Looks great. The AI doesn't interest me, and the lack of GTR interiors is a disappointment, but the addition of a new single seater looks to be great. I'm more pleased to read/watch about Scawen getting some single seater experience, and judging by the Avon tyre bridge at Blackwood, some input from a tyre company too? Great stuff. I'll be interested to see how the clutch is modelled and how it will affect/penalise those of us without a clutch pedal. I was particularly concerned by the mention of having to lift on cars that don't engage the clutch to change gear. I always drive with throttle cut on - not because I'm lazy, but because a pair of plastic Logitech pedals is nowhere near as strong as a real life car pedal, and can probably do without being battered up and down on every single gear change.

Nice to see Eric involved too, pity he doesn't stop by the forum once in a while. Leo looks cute walking around and nearly sitting on the front wing.

Regarding the tracks, what exactly has changed at the Blackwood chicane? I saw the comparison pics on the previous page, but the perspectives are different and using some reference points, it looks as though precious little has changed at the chicane. Can anyone detail exactly what is different?

If you look, you can see that the concrete bariers on the left are farther away from the wall and that the grass section there seems a bit wider. The apex of the curve has been moved further to the right and it looks like it is a tighter radius. It is very subtle, but I think it will force you to lift some in the lower powered cars.

Jeff, you aught to be happy, you got your clutch wear!

I am more interested in the engine inertia comments. I wounder what that will get us? Maybe a cure for the engine bog down under braking problems?

Quote from Stang70Fastback :

I'm just curious as to how the extra car will affect the Car Selection Screen, seeing as there really isn't any spare room as far as I remember... lol.

That will be easy. Just reduce the size of the thumbnails.

I hope that is a problem we keep running into in the future

You can see in the BL chicane shot that the concrete barriers are further away from the wall on the left. The grass on that side is wider than before. The left hand corner is now a tighter radius and is further to the right than before. That is the majority of the change that I can see in that shot.

Edit: Oh, and there seems to be light poles there that weren't there before...

Last edited by Hallen, Sun 2 Dec 2007, 20:34.