Who are you fighting for position with? A guy in front of you on the same lap? If so, you are right, you are entitled to fight for you position.
But at the same time, you are not allowed to hold up the lapping driver behind you. If you think that you can fight with the car lapping you, then you really do need to understand the blue flag "rules" better. It is a bit like golf though, everybody has a slightly different interpretation of the rules and it is on the honor system mostly.
These are realistic situations that happen in real races. You can use it to your advantage. The guy you are fighting with has the same requirement you do. Get behind the lapping car once you let them by. Draft him and use him as a pick to get inside your competitor and take the position.
Of course this is assuming that have not joined mid-race or something like that.
I guess I keyed in on this statement. In a way, I think I can see what you are saying, but that is like saying that aerodynamic drag by itself does not increase fuel consumption. If you have wind blowing over a car that is not moving, then no, drag does not increase fuel consumption. But, like tire pressure, it is part of the overall system and does affect fuel mileage in the racing environment.
Yeah, you did... in that other thread. I did not know about that and the way you worded things here, did not make it nearly as clear as to what you were saying.
I just get bugged when people say "prove me wrong". Like the believer saying that UFO's exist because nobody can prove they don't exist. Proving the negative is usually harder than the positive. Also, I believe the responsibility lies on yourself to make yourself clear and to prove your point, which obviously you did in that other thread.
The math would not have helped me much anyway, it has been too many years since I did calculus. :dunce:
At WOT, you will have the same fuel flow and therefore the same fuel burn rate with low pressure tires compared to high pressure tires, this is true. You will get to a higher top speed with higher pressure tires because of less rolling resistance.
However, MPG is Miles per gallon, not time per gallon. You will go more miles in a given time frame with higher pressure tires because you are going faster and therefore you will have better MPG.
Oh, and it is your responsibility to prove yourself right. It is not my responsibility to prove you wrong. Take some personal initiative and either do the thinking or do the work. For example, I could say "The universe is not infinite; prove me wrong". Kind of silly, don't you think
I think tire pressures in LFS used to get your optimum lap times are too low at the moment. You have to put the pressure low to get the tire temps up on the road tires. The race slicks might be close to the right zone. I think the cars feel better with higher pressure, but you lose a lot of grip.
If the official car name has a space in it, I have been seeing that space replaced with an "_". If that is the case, the game won't recognize the set as a valid set.
For example "Formula V8_BL1_Set.set" will download as "Formula_V8_BL1_Set.set" if you use the Open option in the download dialog box.
I do not know if this is an issue with the site you are downloading from, or if it is an LFS issue. I have seen it happen multiple times when using the Team Inferno setup field.
I take it he has never driven a powerful car near the limit... well neither have I, but I have taken the time to study the physics of racing from tires to suspensions. I am no expert and I can't do the math, but I understand how the car should behave.
I think the only way to convince him is to buy a seat for him in a performance driving school. Then he will learn about the circle of grip, steering with the throttle, power oversteer vs grip/slip angle oversteer, weight transfer etc.
Seeing as that is probably prohibitively expensive, try to demonstrate steering with the throttle. I am sure he has heard announcers talk about it while watching racing on TV. Try to get it to work in GT4... I doubt it will.
Also show him what a difference suspension and tire pressure settings make in LFS. I doubt GT4 setting cause anywhere near as much difference.
But, you probably won't convince him; possibly he just does it to piss you off anyway. Just smile and wave
and tell him to go back to playing his game.
I think the only way to convince him is to buy a seat for him in a performance driving school. Then he will learn about the circle of grip, steering with the throttle, power oversteer vs grip/slip angle oversteer, weight transfer etc.
Seeing as that is probably prohibitively expensive, try to demonstrate steering with the throttle. I am sure he has heard announcers talk about it while watching racing on TV. Try to get it to work in GT4... I doubt it will.
Also show him what a difference suspension and tire pressure settings make in LFS. I doubt GT4 setting cause anywhere near as much difference.
But, you probably won't convince him; possibly he just does it to piss you off anyway. Just smile and wave
and tell him to go back to playing his game.The noise is not that bad. If you wear a headset while racing, you can't really hear it at all anyway. If you use speakers, the speakers are much louder than the wheel. The only time it is a problem for me is when I have my microphone next to the wheel and I am using VoIP.
The DFP can't be beat for the money you pay for it.
The DFP can't be beat for the money you pay for it.
Just to keep this ancient thread alive...
I think LFS mods will be possible in the future, but one of the things that might make it a lot better than rF, is that you won't be tweaking the "physics".
You build the car using real life data: suspension type, mounting points, weight, weight distribution, engine type/size, coefficient of drag, etc. Then put it in the game. No physics changes, all you need is to download the car, which could possibly be automated to some degree.
Tracks would be close to the same. It could even be that Eric could provide a series of texture "pallets" that could be used for different tracks. As long as the traction settings for all of the textures are consistent, I don't see why it would be as much of a problem to support tracks than it is in rF.
But, anyway, that is years off for LFS. I am happy with the direction things are going now. I trust the devs to come up with a great system when and if they do get around to supporting mods.
I think LFS mods will be possible in the future, but one of the things that might make it a lot better than rF, is that you won't be tweaking the "physics".
You build the car using real life data: suspension type, mounting points, weight, weight distribution, engine type/size, coefficient of drag, etc. Then put it in the game. No physics changes, all you need is to download the car, which could possibly be automated to some degree.
Tracks would be close to the same. It could even be that Eric could provide a series of texture "pallets" that could be used for different tracks. As long as the traction settings for all of the textures are consistent, I don't see why it would be as much of a problem to support tracks than it is in rF.
But, anyway, that is years off for LFS. I am happy with the direction things are going now. I trust the devs to come up with a great system when and if they do get around to supporting mods.
Well, I may have spoken too soon. I went back to U23, and I am still having the problem. When I try to downshift too quickly, some shifts get missed. I did not have this problem before U25, but it looks like now it might be my controller (DFP) and not U25 that is causing it.
(tests for a minute) Nope, not my controller. I just tried it with my keyboard using the S key to downshift. I go at it quickly. I hit the key 3 times in succession. Sometimes I get three downshifts. But most of the time, I only get two. I am trying to make sure my finger completely clears the top of the key before pressing down again. Maybe it is some strange USB key repeat setting or something
I was one of the people who requested this feature.
But...
On fast down shifts in the FV8, it will skip some of my downshifts now. This is definitely new for U23, I have not tried 25 yet. I find it hard to beleive I am down shifting faster than 50ms. Is there any way to fine tune this because it should be a good feature.
Thanks again for all your work
Dude!
:headbang: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :ices_roflAlso, I find that Saturday and Sunday mornings can be quite nice. You catch the evening croud in Europe. The pings might be a bit high, but usually not bad enough to have an effect.
Evenings in the US are slower because a good portrion of the LFS racers are snoozing away in bed.
Happy devs are productive and creative devs 
Thanks for the update.
Being involved in corporate software development, I really appreciate your method of development. Quality over quantity, exploring your own interests, and not working to a schedule. Just because no schedule exists, does NOT mean you are not being productive. Developing to a schedule inevitably leads to compromises and chopped features.
You will never see me complain about not seeing a release from you. I may want to see one desperately, but I won't complain about it.
Thanks for the update.
Being involved in corporate software development, I really appreciate your method of development. Quality over quantity, exploring your own interests, and not working to a schedule. Just because no schedule exists, does NOT mean you are not being productive. Developing to a schedule inevitably leads to compromises and chopped features.
You will never see me complain about not seeing a release from you. I may want to see one desperately, but I won't complain about it.
Interesting stuff. I bet we will see them in about 5 years on street cars. It is possible that we will see them in racing too.
I also wouldn't doubt that they will come up with a mechanical "pressure" adjustment as well. A band that expanded or contracted to allow for more or less give in the spring section.
I am not so sure about needing sidewalls. If your regular tire rolls over that far and it does touch, I don't think the sidewall is providing you any grip anyway. The grip still comes from the tread.
I also wouldn't doubt that they will come up with a mechanical "pressure" adjustment as well. A band that expanded or contracted to allow for more or less give in the spring section.
I am not so sure about needing sidewalls. If your regular tire rolls over that far and it does touch, I don't think the sidewall is providing you any grip anyway. The grip still comes from the tread.
I have flown some very sophisticated military simulators in my time... and I have seen them all do things like this. It is what happens when you use physics to model a specific environment. You obviously can't model all the physics of the real world, so you are left with quirks like this.
I think it is actually quite a good thing that LFS displays this type of stuff from time to time. It shows some really good stuff as far as how the car spins. It is just the level of energy that gets put into the spin and how long it lasts that are a tad out of whack. That probably has more to do with they physics calculating cycles than anything else.
The video is great! The car almost moves in sync with the song.
But, you could be a little less apologetic. Take the negative and turn it into a positive
I think it is actually quite a good thing that LFS displays this type of stuff from time to time. It shows some really good stuff as far as how the car spins. It is just the level of energy that gets put into the spin and how long it lasts that are a tad out of whack. That probably has more to do with they physics calculating cycles than anything else.
The video is great! The car almost moves in sync with the song.
But, you could be a little less apologetic. Take the negative and turn it into a positive
I think the ASS article proves something; you can't really evaluate a sim completely with just a quick review and by comparing a couple of parameters.
For all of you who only spent a few minutes with rF and declared it crap, well you just diminished all of us by doing that. I am not saying that you opinion is not valid, but it comes across as a blinders on fan boy kind of thing to do.
LFS suites me much, much better than rF. I have spent quite a bit of time in rF and I have found a bunch of things that greatly detract from its appeal for me. My initial impression of rF was not good. But that is not exacly fair so I spent some time with it and I would need to spend a lot more time with it to get it closer to good. However, that does point out one of LFS' strong points. It is much, much easier to cofigure the environment than rF is. Still, there are tricks you need to know about in LFS to get all that you can out of it. rF is the same way, but nothing is explained well, and you have to find settings in goofy ini files to make things closer to real.
The article points out a few things that rF has that LFS does not, damper settings, diff settings, etc. It may have settings for these things, but from playing around with the more limited settings available on other cars, they don't behave predictably and accurately like settings in LFS generally do.
I guess my point is, these type of article rarely address the meat of the issue and they also generally pick comparison points that generally don't mean a lot. I don't really care if rF has more damper settings, I care if those damper setting correspond to a reaction in the car like a real car would. That question is completely unanswered in the article.
rF is definitely over-grippy. I know it varies from car to car and mod to mod, but because the grip can be altered like that, it proves that grip curves try to map a result instead of the physics dictating a reaction.
For example, I tried the BMW M3 mod and I was easily able to lap Road America at the same times as an ALMS P1 prototype. The top speeds are way different. The difference was I was able to charge through the corners at a very unrealistically high speed with the M3. That does not build a lot of confidence in rF physics.
As far as the screenshots go... just read my second quote below. Nuff said.
For all of you who only spent a few minutes with rF and declared it crap, well you just diminished all of us by doing that. I am not saying that you opinion is not valid, but it comes across as a blinders on fan boy kind of thing to do.
LFS suites me much, much better than rF. I have spent quite a bit of time in rF and I have found a bunch of things that greatly detract from its appeal for me. My initial impression of rF was not good. But that is not exacly fair so I spent some time with it and I would need to spend a lot more time with it to get it closer to good. However, that does point out one of LFS' strong points. It is much, much easier to cofigure the environment than rF is. Still, there are tricks you need to know about in LFS to get all that you can out of it. rF is the same way, but nothing is explained well, and you have to find settings in goofy ini files to make things closer to real.
The article points out a few things that rF has that LFS does not, damper settings, diff settings, etc. It may have settings for these things, but from playing around with the more limited settings available on other cars, they don't behave predictably and accurately like settings in LFS generally do.
I guess my point is, these type of article rarely address the meat of the issue and they also generally pick comparison points that generally don't mean a lot. I don't really care if rF has more damper settings, I care if those damper setting correspond to a reaction in the car like a real car would. That question is completely unanswered in the article.
rF is definitely over-grippy. I know it varies from car to car and mod to mod, but because the grip can be altered like that, it proves that grip curves try to map a result instead of the physics dictating a reaction.
For example, I tried the BMW M3 mod and I was easily able to lap Road America at the same times as an ALMS P1 prototype. The top speeds are way different. The difference was I was able to charge through the corners at a very unrealistically high speed with the M3. That does not build a lot of confidence in rF physics.
As far as the screenshots go... just read my second quote below. Nuff said.
lol, you are officially the 238,291,102nd person to ask this question.
The devs don't work to a schedule. The devs work to a set of goals. When the goals are met, they release the software. If you work to a schedule, you inevitably will have to compromise quality and functionality to release on time. They way they do it here is better.
The devs don't work to a schedule. The devs work to a set of goals. When the goals are met, they release the software. If you work to a schedule, you inevitably will have to compromise quality and functionality to release on time. They way they do it here is better.
I also want the AI improved. It is a great way to practice alternative lines for a league race without making online racers want to ban you as a wrecker You can say a lot of things about the AI, but they don't carry a grudge and they don't start cursing at you
However, Eldanor is right, you can race online anytime, with little planning. People are not going to be offended if you pop in for one race and then leave. I used to think that it was rude to do that, but it isn't. Come out, race a few laps, say bye, and leave. No big deal.
If it is a track and car combo that you don't know well, then tell everybody, start from the back and be careful. You can sill get good racing in and you will be surprised at how quick you pick it up.
You can say a lot of things about the AI, but they don't carry a grudge and they don't start cursing at you However, Eldanor is right, you can race online anytime, with little planning. People are not going to be offended if you pop in for one race and then leave. I used to think that it was rude to do that, but it isn't. Come out, race a few laps, say bye, and leave. No big deal.
If it is a track and car combo that you don't know well, then tell everybody, start from the back and be careful. You can sill get good racing in and you will be surprised at how quick you pick it up.
Me too. I have heard of making effective use of white space, but that is a bit extreme!
I like those a lot. I think that it does show how well LFS simulates the sound based on what the engine is doing. Yes, it could use more elements, but these sounds show how with a little tweaking, we could get some more rich sounds out of what we already have.
I think the Harley sound is very close to the ALMS Panoz engine too. I love the sound of that car
I think the Harley sound is very close to the ALMS Panoz engine too. I love the sound of that car
PC's are general devises that do a lot of things. Sure, you can build a specialty machine that is a great game machine, but it can obviously still do email, spreadsheets, hacking, porn, etc.
A general device is almost never going to be as good as a dedicated device. Consoles are dedicated devices, they are made for playing games and not much more unless it is incidental like watching DVD movies.
However, consoles have a long way to go before they are good enough to replace a PC as THE gaming environment.
First, they have to be unlocked and not proprietary to the manufacturer who then holds the developers' feet to the fire as to content and royalties.
Second, they have to be integrated into the Internet easily or just as easily linked to a PC for modifications, updates, server control, and new content (and probably a bunch of other things I can't think of).
Third, developers must have the freedom to produce content for the consoles that they want to make.
The reason you get mostly lame racing content on consoles are:
1) It is designed for the quick fix and not for the serious racer.
2) The games must appeal to a mass market or the devs won't make enough on the project to pay the exorbitant fees required by the box manufacturer.
3) The box manufacturers would never allow access to their proprietary information willingly for a small, independent dev team for a number of business and strategy reasons.
Eventually, we will have dedicated gaming environments that are open and integrated with PC's and the network. You may use your PC monitor to play the game, or even use your PC as an interface device for the game system, but the game system will have its own dedicated hardware that is designed for nothing else but playing games.
But, right now, games consoles are still toys (albeit fun toys).
A general device is almost never going to be as good as a dedicated device. Consoles are dedicated devices, they are made for playing games and not much more unless it is incidental like watching DVD movies.
However, consoles have a long way to go before they are good enough to replace a PC as THE gaming environment.
First, they have to be unlocked and not proprietary to the manufacturer who then holds the developers' feet to the fire as to content and royalties.
Second, they have to be integrated into the Internet easily or just as easily linked to a PC for modifications, updates, server control, and new content (and probably a bunch of other things I can't think of).
Third, developers must have the freedom to produce content for the consoles that they want to make.
The reason you get mostly lame racing content on consoles are:
1) It is designed for the quick fix and not for the serious racer.
2) The games must appeal to a mass market or the devs won't make enough on the project to pay the exorbitant fees required by the box manufacturer.
3) The box manufacturers would never allow access to their proprietary information willingly for a small, independent dev team for a number of business and strategy reasons.
Eventually, we will have dedicated gaming environments that are open and integrated with PC's and the network. You may use your PC monitor to play the game, or even use your PC as an interface device for the game system, but the game system will have its own dedicated hardware that is designed for nothing else but playing games.
But, right now, games consoles are still toys (albeit fun toys).
Pretty much. The main reason is to match the revs for the gear your are downshifting to. This keeps the rear wheels from locking up because you are also hard on the brakes at this point. It is almost the same thing as blipping the throttle for downshifts in LFS. The difference is that you have the ball of your right foot (the "toe" part in Heal/Toe) on the brake and you use your heal to blip the throttle. You use your left foot to work the clutch. It is a tricky maneuver to learn and perfect.
I have a clutch pedal but I don't try to heal/toe much. When I depress the brake enough to get the desired stopping power, I have a hard time getting my heal up onto the gas pedal. It is almost as if the gas pedal needs to be set back further, but there is no adjustment for that.
I think that different racing series and different cars have different ways of shifting. In ALMS for example, the Porsche GT2 cars will heal/toe for downshifts, but not clutch for up shifts. They do use a sequential gearbox though.
Last edited by Hallen, .
Very nice!
Hey Vykos! Somebody should take this, do a bit of cleanup editing on it, and turn it into an article to publish in one (or more) of the many online magazines. It captures the essence of the LFS experience better than anything else I have read so far.
For the U.S. for most forms of sports car and open wheel racing.
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrmo/the_flag.htm
http://home.earthlink.net/~mrmo/the_flag.htm
I appreciate your position on this and your attempts to describe why you prefer the FF in rFactor. I think I understand what you are saying. To you, those cues let you know how fast you are going and makes you feel more like you are in a real race car.
However, I am just the opposite. The vibrations and spasms that rFactor generates with the wheel are distracting, counter productive, and I seriously think it will damage your wheel over time. The key point is that it masks what the car is doing. I agree that it would be nice to feel the vibrations and G-loads that a car produces, but doing it through the steering wheel only is not going to work very well. It just comes off as feeling contrived.
In LFS I can feel the weight shift of the car when I feather it into a corner. This is essential to going fast in LFS, especially with the sports cars. I could never get this sensation from rFactor.
In rFactor, I could not find a way to setup a car with the proper amount of oversteer. The car would always understeer on turn entry, and grossly oversteers on exit. I can't explain this very well, and maybe it was just because of the lack of feel from the FF, but it felt wrong and unintuitive.
I do still check my speedometer when hotlapping with LFS. This is to check my exit and apex speeds to see if a certain line can carry more speed through a particular corner. Other than that, I don't really use the speedometer.
Fortunately, you can turn off most of the rumble stuff in rFactor so it does not get in the way so much, but it also seems to affect the rest of the FF options too, so it is really hard to tell what is going on. I also hate the way the screen bounces around and vibrates in rFactor. I had to turn that off as it gave my a bad headache. When you are in the car, and your body is undergoing the same accelerations as the car is, you don't see this kind of bouncing around. You only see bouncing like that when you are a non-stabilized camera mounted on the roll cage.
LFS is more technical than rFactor. It is more like a symphony or jaz than a power chorded metal song. This mirrors real life in that real racing is very technical. The first things you will be taught in driving school is the circle of grip and weight transfer. If you don't understand these things, you are not going to be fast. LFS forces you to understand these things. That is why I prefer LFS over rFactor.
And that is what they are meant to be... scary. Those pictures are from the Multnomah county Sheriff's department. They cover Portland, Oregon, US. Meth is a huge problem here. Those pictures are real. Those people destroyed their lives for a high. Meth is also very dangerous to make. It requires some nasty chemicals that have a tendency to blow up if you don't work very carefully. Imagine a bunch of drugged out derelicts working in a garage trying to put this stuff together... yikes! You can't even buy Pseudoephedrine(Afrin, Afrinol, Chlor-Trimeton, Novafed, Sudafedhere) anymore if you have the sniffles. It requires a doctors prescription because Pseudoephedrine is one of the ingredients for meth.
But, I still think it was a bit funny. Kid was just pointing out that the devs have been nearly working themselves to death for us...
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG