I think if you go back and watch all the ALMS races this year, you will see a perfect example of cars, the Audi R10 and the Porsche Spyder, that are very different yet run nearly the same lap times. One is an LMP1 and is larger, longer wheel base, with gobs more power... but it is heavier. The LMP2 Spyder is lighter, smaller and much more nimble.
On the tighter tracks, the Spyder was the clearly faster car. On long tracks, the R10 was clearly faster. But on the in-between tracks, it was a heck of a battle. If the R10 ever got in front, it was very tough for the Spyder to pass because the R10 would just gap them on the straights.
But if the Spyder could get by in the corners, and they had enough time before a straight, they would pull away.
On tighter tracks, the R10 would use traffic to their advantage because of their huge torque and make quick work of slower cars. The Spyder would lose momentum getting around traffic allowing the R10 to either catch up or build a gap.
It all made for some exciting racing.
The point is, even if all the GTR cars are made so that we can run identical lap times in hot laps, racing against each other will still be a challenge. For example, the XRR has a bit more top speed down the straights, but it is almost useless because the FXR will get a much, much better jump exiting the last corner. They can get so good of a jump, that the XRR can't catch up even along the longest straights. To get by, you have to race. Find the weakness in the other driver or other car, and fight your way past. That is as it should be.
So, don't worry too much about equal lap times. I think they should be as close as is feasibly possible. But, because of the different nature of each car model (thank you Scavier), there will still be advantages and disadvantages to each car. This is as it should be because they are different cars. It ain't spec racing here.
On the tighter tracks, the Spyder was the clearly faster car. On long tracks, the R10 was clearly faster. But on the in-between tracks, it was a heck of a battle. If the R10 ever got in front, it was very tough for the Spyder to pass because the R10 would just gap them on the straights.
But if the Spyder could get by in the corners, and they had enough time before a straight, they would pull away.
On tighter tracks, the R10 would use traffic to their advantage because of their huge torque and make quick work of slower cars. The Spyder would lose momentum getting around traffic allowing the R10 to either catch up or build a gap.
It all made for some exciting racing.
The point is, even if all the GTR cars are made so that we can run identical lap times in hot laps, racing against each other will still be a challenge. For example, the XRR has a bit more top speed down the straights, but it is almost useless because the FXR will get a much, much better jump exiting the last corner. They can get so good of a jump, that the XRR can't catch up even along the longest straights. To get by, you have to race. Find the weakness in the other driver or other car, and fight your way past. That is as it should be.
So, don't worry too much about equal lap times. I think they should be as close as is feasibly possible. But, because of the different nature of each car model (thank you Scavier), there will still be advantages and disadvantages to each car. This is as it should be because they are different cars. It ain't spec racing here.
The reason it is done in the real world is to stabilize the rear of the car and to maintain speed through a corner (coming from a guy with a few hundred track day laps, so FWIW). You want to keep the tires as close to the edge as possible and if you don't apply power through a corner, you will slow down. But, stabilizing the rear via weight transfer is one of the bigger reasons for doing it. If you ever do a track day with an instructor, they will harp on you to keep your foot on the gas. It helps to keep you pointed in the right direction.
I think inside LFS, or any Sim, people do basically what Tristian says. They can practice so much on completely predictable surfaces, that they can get it perfect. Also, because of the setup options we have, it makes it possible to aggressively trail brake into corners where it just wouldn't work as well in the real world.
There are corners in LFS where throttle maintenance is needed. Turn 5 on KY National is a good example. If you are in the LX6 for example, you can't just mash the gas once you turn in. You let some speed bleed off while maintaining a bit of throttle, and then your roll the throttle back in again at the right time.
But, mostly it is just the ammount of practice and the aliens. I have to coast a bit on some corners and use maintenance throttle. I can't just trail brake, and then floor it like some can.
Nice vid too, it is unfortunate that Youtube compression munches it so bad. That is why I got my own domain so I could host better videos.
I just use a Nikon digital camera for my videos. It is light weight, simple and mostly, it is cheap.
It does do 640x480 video at 30 frames per second, so you can't complain about that. The mic is on the camera and there is no way to put an external mic on it. I am going to try and rig up a muffler on the mic to try and reduce some of the wind noise. Unfortunately, that is not going to help you hear the car much. It is pretty quiet the way it is. It is just a street car and my daily driver so straight pipes are not an option.
I think the cars react perfectly. If you really had your butt in the car instead of sitting on your stable apartment floor, you would then notice all the bumps.
Until the point where all of us can afford some kind of motion seat, you just won't feel it and will think the cars aren't moving enough.
The only fix for this is to exaggerate the bumps, like rFactor does, and make the sim more unrealistic.
Personally, I think that if you really use your eyes and really immerse yourself you will see the bumps, and you will almost feel them. BBT said it, he cringes waiting for the car to hit after getting air. That is because the reaction of the car is believable which makes you anticipate actual physical impact... which of course never comes because you are not physically there.
Are we talking about bumps in the track or are we talking about that annoying thing that rFactor does where the whole dash bucks up in the air when you hit a bump? I mean, it looks like the whole car is made up of separate parts and the steering rack is made of rubber. It is silly. Real cars don't look like that when they go over bumps.
Your eyes don't work like that either. If you have your eye on a spot in front of you, they will track that spot no matter what bangs and vibrations are happening. Your eyes do not work like a helmet cam.
Until you get a full motion setup, it will just look silly if you try and do things like rFactor does. I have to turn all that stuff off to drive rFactor. It is too distracting otherwise.
I don't think that the tracks in LFS are too smooth. Race tracks in general are smooth, at least ones that get any kind of regular maintenance. They are much, much smoother than real roads. I think South City has plenty of bumps in it they way it is. Aston has bumps. You can feel them and they will upset the car if you hit them wrong. It makes braking difficult in certain places.
I guess I just don't see the problem.
Your eyes don't work like that either. If you have your eye on a spot in front of you, they will track that spot no matter what bangs and vibrations are happening. Your eyes do not work like a helmet cam.
Until you get a full motion setup, it will just look silly if you try and do things like rFactor does. I have to turn all that stuff off to drive rFactor. It is too distracting otherwise.
I don't think that the tracks in LFS are too smooth. Race tracks in general are smooth, at least ones that get any kind of regular maintenance. They are much, much smoother than real roads. I think South City has plenty of bumps in it they way it is. Aston has bumps. You can feel them and they will upset the car if you hit them wrong. It makes braking difficult in certain places.
I guess I just don't see the problem.
It ain't much, but it is fun for me
High Res videos are linked and embeded on the blog.
http://www.griplimit.net
I have spent quite a bit of time trying to get rFactor to work. It doesn't matter if it is a fictitious car or a "real" modded in car, they all feel vaguely the same. Rotate about the middle, the same unpredictable tire behaviour, the same unpredictable braking, and Real-feel, although an improvement over stock, is still lacking compared to LFS. If you make a car setup well enough that it will actually turn-in on any corner in rFactor, it is so unrealisticly tail happy other places that it is just funny. It is just your opinion, as this is just my opinion, but calling LFS cars "arcade drift game" is just showing that you either haven't spent the time to learn how to properly setup a car, or you just have no clue.
LFS allows for an extremely wide range of settings changes (probably too wide), and that throws a lot of people off. You just don't crank things up all the way like you do in rFactor to get the results you want. It takes small tweaks and a real understanding of car setups to make a car work well.
I have spent many hours on a real track in a real car driving at the limit... and sometimes slightly past the limit. The comparison is extremely difficult to make between real world and the sim world. But, like Tristian, I can say with a lot of confidence that LFS comes much, much closer than rFactor.
Damn, I swore I would not ever post in this thread again... and there I go.
Yeah, I left the private guestbook entry. It worked fine for me with IE.
Thanks for the answers Bob. The entry screen is fine in the units it is for now. Not a big deal at all.
Thanks for the answers Bob. The entry screen is fine in the units it is for now. Not a big deal at all.
The vehicle adding and editing screen seems to not respect your units preferences. It is always in metric.
Also, I might be doing something wrong, but when I check the HP/Wt performance values, they look way wrong to me. I think it should be something like 18, the program shows 30 something.
170hp 3153lbs. =18.54 lbs/hp. The program shows 33.6. Maybe there is a units problem here? I know, I should use metric, but I just prefer some imperial units for certain things.
For spring length in the suspension settings, you are looking for the total uncompressed length of the spring when it is not installed on the car, right?
Also, I might be doing something wrong, but when I check the HP/Wt performance values, they look way wrong to me. I think it should be something like 18, the program shows 30 something.
170hp 3153lbs. =18.54 lbs/hp. The program shows 33.6. Maybe there is a units problem here? I know, I should use metric, but I just prefer some imperial units for certain things.
For spring length in the suspension settings, you are looking for the total uncompressed length of the spring when it is not installed on the car, right?
Yes. He said it was not a major new release. It is just continuing the improvements need to reach S2 final. He did specifically mention the AI improvements.
A banked 'merican race track... you mean like this? Oooh, ick, it has one of them 'merican cars in the picture too...
I think it was pretty obvious that Victor was reading from notes during the interview. But still, it was very good. It was nice to hear Scawen's name pronounced for the first time.
Dennis has been very busy with outside projects this year. He did just get the Atom with the Hartley Hayabusa V8 (400hp) running, but it is not exactly track-ready yet.
Dennis, unfortunately for us, can't publicly document the progress on the production dp1 car like he did for the prototype. So, it is a wait and see situation now.
Track days in Portland are now shut down until February next year because of the track getting repaved, widened and changed a bit.
So it will be a while before he can do some serious testing with the Atom (unless he takes it up to Pacific raceways in Washington or down to Thunderhill in California). Not to mention the winter rains just kicked in here today... a wet track would not be a good idea for a first drive in that monster.
As far as the rumors go... let em ride. It is totally non-productive, useless and usually completely wrong, but it is fun
Dennis, unfortunately for us, can't publicly document the progress on the production dp1 car like he did for the prototype. So, it is a wait and see situation now.
Track days in Portland are now shut down until February next year because of the track getting repaved, widened and changed a bit.
So it will be a while before he can do some serious testing with the Atom (unless he takes it up to Pacific raceways in Washington or down to Thunderhill in California). Not to mention the winter rains just kicked in here today... a wet track would not be a good idea for a first drive in that monster.
As far as the rumors go... let em ride. It is totally non-productive, useless and usually completely wrong, but it is fun
But, we don't want to dissuade you from setting up another series.
It would actually be nice to have a series that wasn't open wheel cars or GTR cars.
The LRF cars would be cool, or even the street cars would be cool.
I participate in most of the LOTA series when they come up. Generally, they are run on Thursdays.
Come up with some more details about the series: rules, points systems, protesting, format, etc, and you might get some more interest. People need to know it is a solid effort before committing.
Fill us in. I might be interested in participating.
It would actually be nice to have a series that wasn't open wheel cars or GTR cars.
The LRF cars would be cool, or even the street cars would be cool.
I participate in most of the LOTA series when they come up. Generally, they are run on Thursdays.
Come up with some more details about the series: rules, points systems, protesting, format, etc, and you might get some more interest. People need to know it is a solid effort before committing.
Fill us in. I might be interested in participating.
The second episode is down right now, but I am watching the first. Although not a profession production, it has good information and is generally well done.
A suggestion for a segment for Tools of the Trade is to do a segment on force feedback. You may ask ECCI why they don't have FF even though they have one of the best wheels on the market. The answer is licensing. It is extremely expensive to license the technology and if you can't amortize that expense over thousands of products, it makes FF prohibitively expensive. ECCI will tell you that their fluid damping system provides better feel than FF, but since it is not dynamic, it is a bit hard to believe. I think it is mostly because of the costs. Check out http://www.immersion.com/ for more information. Immersion owns the Patent.
Also, the shifter segment was OK. But it would have been much better if a couple of different products were tested, compared and contrasted.
A suggestion for a segment for Tools of the Trade is to do a segment on force feedback. You may ask ECCI why they don't have FF even though they have one of the best wheels on the market. The answer is licensing. It is extremely expensive to license the technology and if you can't amortize that expense over thousands of products, it makes FF prohibitively expensive. ECCI will tell you that their fluid damping system provides better feel than FF, but since it is not dynamic, it is a bit hard to believe. I think it is mostly because of the costs. Check out http://www.immersion.com/ for more information. Immersion owns the Patent.
Also, the shifter segment was OK. But it would have been much better if a couple of different products were tested, compared and contrasted.
Oh no you don't... You just don't have the time... repeat after me..
I don't want to be one more position down on the grid. It is bad enough now.
Plus, if Banshee ever does get behind me, I get punted sooner or later.
You also might want to check out the CHOPS guys too. The host Sunday fun races and are a good team.
I don't think it matters what RL car they are like
The FZ5 behaves like a rear wheel drive, rear engine car, etc, etc. The cool thing is that you can really tell the difference between the cars. They all have their own characteristics that are a result of the design. Just like a real car.
In other sims, the cars all pretty much feel the same. The only difference is how fast you go down the straights and how much grip you have in the corners.
The FZ5 behaves like a rear wheel drive, rear engine car, etc, etc. The cool thing is that you can really tell the difference between the cars. They all have their own characteristics that are a result of the design. Just like a real car.
In other sims, the cars all pretty much feel the same. The only difference is how fast you go down the straights and how much grip you have in the corners.
Yep, but that is a result of your CPU not the graphics settings (for the most part). The AI eat frame rate. As long as you don't drop below 60 with a full grid online, then you really have it made. If you do drop that low, then it is a result of your Dynamic LOD and other LOD settings.
What game are you playing? This is a discussion about LFS.
LFS cycles for input is not tied to frame rate in any way. Frame rate has nothing to do with the frequency of car position or physics updates. Frame rate is only how frequently your picture gets refreshed. How often your screen is refreshed is dependent on the frequncy setting for the monitor.
Yep, I recently switched from a lower end ATI card to a similar nVidia card. nVidia can't handle negative MIP map bias. If you don't have that setting to "Clamp", you get moire effect all over the place (I use a LCD monitor at native resolution, I don't know if it happens on CRT's).
I still get some moire, especially at Aston and Blackwood. It is distracting for sure.
I had some problems with moire with the ATI card too, but not as bad and I found settings that fixed it.
If you leave MIP clamping off, you have to bump your AA up to 8 to get rid of most of the moire. But, with my card and my resolution, that drops me back to ~40fps in hotlap mode.
To whoever mentioned they were getting 100+fps. Why? What is your refresh rate on your monitor? Getting higher FPS than your refresh rate does not do you much good. Bump up the quality settings to the max until you start dropping below 60 FPS.
I still get some moire, especially at Aston and Blackwood. It is distracting for sure.
I had some problems with moire with the ATI card too, but not as bad and I found settings that fixed it.
If you leave MIP clamping off, you have to bump your AA up to 8 to get rid of most of the moire. But, with my card and my resolution, that drops me back to ~40fps in hotlap mode.
To whoever mentioned they were getting 100+fps. Why?
What is your refresh rate on your monitor? Getting higher FPS than your refresh rate does not do you much good. Bump up the quality settings to the max until you start dropping below 60 FPS.Cool! Thanks Bob.
I will give it a try when I get home.
Somebody once posted a formula to use to get a "natural" view FOV setting, I think it was on the old forums.
That formula would be a good place to start if anybody stil hase it available.
The formula used screen size/resolution and your eye's distance from the monitor to calculate a FOV that would give you the correct perspective or "viewing window" as if it were a window looking into the real world.
I have a 20" 1680x1050 wide screen (new to me) and I use upper 90's for the most part right now.
That formula would be a good place to start if anybody stil hase it available.
The formula used screen size/resolution and your eye's distance from the monitor to calculate a FOV that would give you the correct perspective or "viewing window" as if it were a window looking into the real world.
I have a 20" 1680x1050 wide screen (new to me
) and I use upper 90's for the most part right now.I would love to be there guys, but I don't think it will happen. I will be watching on TV though. Have a big LFS sign up for me
I will be at the next race at Laguna Seca. It's a bit shorter drive. 1000 miles vs 2000 miles.
I will be at the next race at Laguna Seca. It's a bit shorter drive. 1000 miles vs 2000 miles.
Bones!!! Well done.
That was a nicely written article. Very clear and informative. It is one of the better written pieces that I have seen in ASS.
That was a nicely written article. Very clear and informative. It is one of the better written pieces that I have seen in ASS.
And for those of you in North America who could not watch this race, SPEED will air it during the winter. They always air all the Porsche Super Cup races then. So it is a chance to actually see an LFS'er race. (of course it would be better if they aired it in the same season as the race was done, but they are too busy wasting air time showing NASCAR reality shows and reruns)
Great Job Norbi!
The cup races are tough. There are a lot of big name drivers who don't do that well in the series when they do their guest drives.
Great Job Norbi!
The cup races are tough. There are a lot of big name drivers who don't do that well in the series when they do their guest drives.
There are some things about setups in LFS that are a bit contrary to real cars. You can build setups in LFS that are very opposite of how you would setup a car in real life, and you get good or better results than you would if you set it up "right". Some of these tricks will show up in most of the sets used for hot laps.
Also, there is a huge wide range of changes that can be made that wouldn't be possible on a real car. For example, you are not going to find springs for your personal car (even if there is a club race class it is used in) that give you spring rates above about 4 Hz. In LFS, it is possible to do such things. If you could find those springs, you wouldn't be able to find dampers to match. (Assuming you are not using a cutting torch and TIG welder to greatly modify the car)
But, still LFS is much better (IMHO) than the other sims out there right now. You can really feel small changes in setup, which I find amazing.
A good set will allow you to be more consistent, and therefore, faster eventually because you can find the little problems with your line and fix them. With an unstable set, you might be fast for a few laps, but you will wreck a lot too. You won't drive a consistent line making hard to evaluate your progress.
Also, there is a huge wide range of changes that can be made that wouldn't be possible on a real car. For example, you are not going to find springs for your personal car (even if there is a club race class it is used in) that give you spring rates above about 4 Hz. In LFS, it is possible to do such things. If you could find those springs, you wouldn't be able to find dampers to match. (Assuming you are not using a cutting torch and TIG welder to greatly modify the car)
But, still LFS is much better (IMHO) than the other sims out there right now. You can really feel small changes in setup, which I find amazing.
A good set will allow you to be more consistent, and therefore, faster eventually because you can find the little problems with your line and fix them. With an unstable set, you might be fast for a few laps, but you will wreck a lot too. You won't drive a consistent line making hard to evaluate your progress.
LFS is very CPU intensive. Something is eating up cycles is what I am thinking.
You don't happen to be using Mozilla Thunderbird for your email do you? I know that sometimes when running LFS, Thunderbird will for some reason start sucking all the CPU cycles and LFS starts stuttering really bad. If I shut down Thunderbird, the problem goes away in LFS instantly.
If not that, I would guess you have some other app or malware that is sucking up CPU time.
You don't happen to be using Mozilla Thunderbird for your email do you? I know that sometimes when running LFS, Thunderbird will for some reason start sucking all the CPU cycles and LFS starts stuttering really bad. If I shut down Thunderbird, the problem goes away in LFS instantly.
If not that, I would guess you have some other app or malware that is sucking up CPU time.
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