Golden gate Bridge?

San Feriro?

oh noes, its grafics are not uber lyke my PC i can't play thiss i mite understand wat fun is.

According to the Owner of Gt planet who was at the launch, the feeling of body roll is much more apprent with this new model.

Hopefully thats true.

Also i hope they take more Drivers in their academy program and do Australia more then once dammit!

Quote from Stig209 :

Hopefully Honda will produce engine which is competitive with others. I don't want McLaren to sink like Williams did when they changed from BMW to Toyota-engines.

Williams sunk because the BMW deal came with Works support, after BMW left a huge part of the budget was gone, that was the big reason for the downfall, combine that with the big sponsers that left at the same time and you got what you saw.

If anything this Mclaren Honda deal assures the downfall won't happen(Atleast the Financial way Williams did)as Honda is coming as a Works deal, its a crucial thing too as Mclaren just lost their massive deal With Vodafone.

Quote from PMD9409 :

If they were better, they would find a way to win. They would be able to adapt to change.

Thats an invalid argument, when the performance of your car is Dependant on a Tyre company that can choose to change around the compounds for each race at will, the main factor of the entire race has therefore been changed.

Quote :

Since when was it not? Almost all forms of racing is mostly strategy. That's how it is in nearly any sport. If you're going to reference the bridgestone era then your argument would be invalid through all forms of contradiction in your prior arguments.

You could argue this, but strategy up untill the pirelli era was never limiting what the driver could do on the track to the point he couldn't race anyone due to tyres going off the cliff, or atleast on a Regular basis.

Quote :

Why wouldn't the first stint dictate near everything? Its the only stint where the cars are closest together and the most important overtakes will happen because of it. If you have to get as much as you can as fast as you can else you may not get another chance the rest of the race. That's how racing has always been.

What im trying to say is after the first stint there is no more racing, it is completely up to strategy and saving tyres, any passing you therefore see after the first stint isn't going to be really contested or even at all, I can't think of a single racing category in which this happens.

Now this doesn't happen at all tracks, such tracks like Monaco and Monza there is basically no wear, but then you go to other tracks and then racing is not possible because of wear, its become wacky.

Quote from N I K I :

Hamilton Passed Webber in last laps of Bahrain. Webber passed him back. Then Hamilton passed him in last lap!!!!!!!! Just to name one example that you're 100% wrong. I'm getting sick of arguing with you. You no longer deserve me sharing anything intelligent with you Mustafur. You've officially become worse than BlueFlame.

Your unwillingness to see the drivers point of view in anyway makes me wonder why your on this forum in the first place.

I see two drivers on worn cheese tyres taking a gamble on trying to finish ahead of each other while trying to save the tyres or they will hit the cliff, defending is next to impossible and the result is out of their hands and its basically luck that will win or who had the fresher tyres.

The whole stint they are basically saving tyres, even when "battling".

That is chess, it is not racing.

Now you can make 10 paragraphs on why strategy, chess and football is interesting but at the end of the day those are not racing.

Quote from yet another driver(Daniel Ricciardo this time):
"The first two seasons they had were better, and you think they would develop and get better basically."They're basically falling apart very quickly.
"A lot of guys had to make four pit stops on the weekend, including myself.
"It means you have to look after the tyres, you can't really race at full speed. You're playing a bit of a game of chess instead of racing as hard as you can.
"Formula One is meant to be the pinnacle of motor racing, it's meant to be the fastest cars in the world racing around.
"It's not really that at the moment."

Now ask yourself, Is this not exactly what im saying?

Last edited by Mustafur, Wed 15 May 2013, 19:00.

Quote from N I K I :

And that's exactly why it's so interesting. There's hardly any sport out there where player has to be committed to it for that long of a period constantly on the edge with just few straights here and there to rest for few seconds. F1 driver on 50% of his capabilities does way more than great majority of all other sportsmen do in their field of expertize. Every game is about strategy if you take a closer look. Every team has strategies etc. etc. and still take Force India car this year and go bash it out you'll have no problem, car manages tires itself by design. In Mercedes you have to manage it, because car is incapable of doing that for you at the moment. It's fascinating how much thought is behind this mustafur.

I'm not fan of F1 by accident mate. It's absolutely the pinacle, the best of the best in something I love and that is why I'm trying to show you a deeper level of understanding, since it's necessary in such a complicated sport. Else, you just end up with complaints about things of things instead of perhaps admiring great work the Ferrari crew has done with their car this year compared to RedBull, who hasn't moved a step since last year.

It's a shame this announced tires change after Canada. Ferrari, Lotus and especially Force India have worked really hard in finding the perfect balance in their car, via suspension geometry, setups and other things to be in perfect thermal area of 2013 Pirelli tire. It's greatly unfair to widen that narrow operating window to allow other teams to exploit temperatures which are basically not allowed. Even in LFS the operating window in temperature range is generally tight and it's something as normal as that. It's just the consequence of tire war that teams got used on having it easy mate and that's why we now have all this misunderstandings going on.

F1 has many, many times gone backwards in the past to allow the racing to become closer, ergo more competitive and more attractive. If there were only few rules and teams were never stopped from going forward, everyone would be running V12 engines, going 400kmh on Monza and driving 3 meter wide cars with such grip the best of tires would probably be as F1's ordered tire today is. The point is, it would cost unimaginable amount of money and there wouldn't be racing, we'd be watching business. So, there are few steps back from perfection to give us racing from that.

Even in pure racing, there are strategies how you overtake someone, or defend from someone. I'm sorry, but stating things as you did just makes me thing all thru this tread that you wish to ignore everything that has been kindly given to you here in terms of knowledge to stick with your entry fan levels of knowledge in order just to be different and to argue with basically, everyone here. Mate, I strongly suggest you not to state things way out of your range with attitude I don't really follow this sport.

You follow football. It's the biggest game of chess on planet that. It's just that the board is not black and yellow, it's completely green, how about that.

Football is Football, Racing is racing.

The whole concept of each is completely different. If you try to put much too emphasis on the strategy then its not exactly racing as the driver them selves are basically pawns to the team on how to drive and what to do at any given moment.

Im not trying to sound like this is change change is bad im saying from the perspective of the whole concept onnwhat your seeing is forming into another type of sport.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Well, for example in the race last weekend, if Alonso hadn't passed Raikkonen at the start, he wouldn't have been able to put himself in the position to jump Vettel in the pits which put him in the ideal position to win the race, it could have been a different result if it wasn't for that. Pretty similar with Vettel in Bahrain. In Malaysia, there was plenty of racing. That sort of thing is pretty much the same sort of racing in F1 there has been in the modern era. A lot of people are overreacting imo. Spain was still too much but it wasn't as bad as everyone is making out.

Yeah the first stint dictates everything, then pretty much any passing you see afterwards is just a straight pass without defence, and if they try to defend their tyres go off.

Its lame.

Quote from IsaacPrice :

Its been like that for aslong as I have watched it. Tell me an era of F1 that hasn't been like that? IMO the strategic element is what F1 is about. It's just about getting the balance right.

Yes I know there has been a strategic element and a racing element but now the whole thing is Strategy.

Quote from N I K I :

Ok. You're clearly a RedBull fan. The statement was at end of last season that this seasons tires will be slightly more prone to degradation to improve the show, because everyone adjusted to diffuser ban and everything became boring procession in most of last races in last season.
So, they did exactly that. Worsen the tires ever so slightly from already bad tires and that's that. They've now hit the limit how bad they can be and every single team could have predicted this before season started, and your RedBull group of whinners about how it's only to stop them bla bla bla bla blaaaaa, exactly knew this was happening.
I tell you, even when they so to say 'improve' the tires, majority of races will still be 3 stoppers as the summer looms and RedBull will still not be dominant, because the level of grip available to them will be on Malaysia level and Alonso won't be taken out every single race.
Asian tracks suit them and you can see where that is going then. If they whine again to change tires before that part of season, then something is really wrong with F1 politics.

Yes, want racing and your a fanboy of a team.

I have my favoured drivers yes, but i dont follow F1 like Football.

Its basically a game of chess, not Racing.

Quote from N I K I :

Pirelli was more conservative in second half of the season last year after in order to please the whiners, much like this year, Pirelli changed the tires. And it all stinks too much as if it's going back in that way. Personally 3 pitstops should be minimum on high-speed tracks and RedBull should develop their car, not whine into 4th straight title. arrrrr

Trying to make tyres as bad as possible to stop people winning sounds more like WWE then competition to me.

Teams shouldn't be punished for being better.

Now as much as I want the tyres to change, I do think it would be unfair to do too much untill next season regardless.

If Redbull have the fastest package you should see a second half domination like last year once they understood the tyres.

Quote from BlueFlame :

Yea, anyone who's not winning is obviously going to have a problem with the situation. Where as Alonso/Räikkönen will say "It is what it is and we just deal with it."

Lotus definitely don't want anything changed because they know they depend on the crappy tyres to have any chance in the championship.

Quote from N I K I :

Mustafur will understand everything I told him one day.

I was in your position over a year ago, i woke up.

Quote from CrAZySkyPimp :

What you guys seem to argue about is personal opinions, some like how it is, some don't. There's no facts that can change ones view on what he enjoys or not.

What is entertainment is personal opinon, what is racing is not.

Then again a Time trial is a form of racing but I guess it all comes down to whatever floats your entertained boat.

Quote from N I K I :

Wait I think I understand your point. You want to completely erase all this : BBC's best overtakes of 2012 (some in early laps, some DRS, some out of DRS zones but helped by DRS enabling chaser to stay close) just to see someone who is two seconds slower than he should be have a chance at defending his position. Yea, makes sense since you're probably 2 seconds off pace in LFS too. I know, compassion right.

Im not going to continue any further, your nose is too far up your own you know what to understand anything apart from what your View is.

I have said countless times I didn't like how it was before the pirelli nonsense but typical of someone with your kind of argument you dont see that, all i have ever asked was for a middle ground that removes overtaking aids and allows the driver to fight without overly advantaging them so they can actually race, that is all.

Quote from N I K I :

I think every single driver was soaked with sweat after the race. What was your point that drivers are having it easy, dude open your eyes already. I explained exactly why some people are struggling. I'm not going to do that again for you. This is not an argument. When you're two seconds slower than me it's not a fight, it's annihilation as it should be.

To show you how obviously lost to this all you are just watch replay of Barcelona race and watch Massa/Alonso/Ricciardo overtakes. Beautiful racing.

If it so happens that for variety of strategy we witness lets say a drastic 40% of annihilation passes without fighting to see other 60% a proper racing that we would never see in first place, then so be it.

Long live DRS!

I have opened my eyes, im past the stage of: "WOW overtaking is possible!!!!" and now im looking into detail whats really happening, i know it takes some people longer then others to see some things but damn if you dont get it now i dont think you ever will.

Im looking at this from a drivers point of view, the only point of view that matters when talking about actual racing, the defending car at best really only gets one move to stake their claim to defend but tyre management will always come before defending.

Quote from N I K I :

You're just being ignorant, you know that right. It's a goddamn drivers problem that he is trying to make it to stop one less time than the other people around him. If you're doing that, you have some prices to pay and I sure as hell am not going to be held up by you who are two seconds a lap slower than me. Long live DRS!

Yes, because wanting to see side by side racing and drivers fighting tooth and nail being exhuasted after a race means im ignorant.

Put it this way in the last stint of that race, drivers where lapping around 4 seconds a lap slower then they would of in 2010 in the same scenario, aka they were crawling.

Pretty much the only driver related thing in their hands is how they did the first stint, then its tyre conservation till the end.

Quote from CrAZySkyPimp :

Mustafur, for or against DRS?

Against, whilst it does allow passing that may or not be possible before, its giving one car the ability to walk past the other without giving the other driver a chance to defend.

Of course its not the case at every track but there should be another option, maybe make a regulation for teams to abide by design regulations that reduce rear turbulance, and make it easier for cars to stay behind others, which in turn can provide a whole new aero design platform with new innovations.

Quote from N I K I :

This is racing that we always craved for to see on our television, for years and years this is what we shouted and envisioned for.

Imperfection, struggle and generally new things are mother of all chaos and chaos is mother of all extreme emotions. This is what we as fans want to experience. The middle ground does not exist in F1, it never did and it never will exist. Extremes is what F1 is about.

It only so seems to me like people who are rather not very competitive in LFS are the ones who don't understand this new F1 game that tires are providing. Here it goes, I'm going to give you an explanation as simple as possibly I can do to make you realize a few things.

Since a lot of us are familiar with GTR racing (be it endurance or 1hour sprint) we defenetially know that our slick model tire behaves very differently with different cambers. Hence you use somewhat 1 entire degree of camber more for qualifying than for race and completely different tire compound. Now, envision that you have to start the race in GT1 car on R2 tire and those exact qualifying cambers with full tank brother. Of course you were to burn your tires in matter of laps. This is why I think it's the stupidest thing anyone can do in F1 is build a car as Mercedes did. There is a difference. They don't run that extreme camber/tire pressures, they blow exhaust gasses into rear wheels, which then gives extra grip, which basically only works in 1 lap if you overdo it since it melts the rear tires to the ground.

If you know all this you are obviously going to build a car that is solely made for race with race cambers and race pressures and race exhaust blown diffuser. Of course you are not to have the ultimate pace in qualifying, because as already mentioned in comparison that we can experience in LFS, qualifying setup is very much different, and tire settings are only the top of the iceberg.

Then go look out and see that RedBull has always made the car for qualifying and always was on defensive strategy in race. This is why they are hated. They aren't racing, they aren't taking on a challenge, they are avoiding it with few tricks. So, now when tires are finally demanding the entirely race setup teams like Ferrari, Lotus, Force India are profiting because they have understood the game from the start and took on with it, whilst RedBull and Mercedes always looked for a way around it. FIA's role and tire suppliers role is to command the situation that everyone has to take on the challenge, not avoid it and that is what is happening right now.

And for McLaren, Sauber and Williams, tires have nothing to do with them, they changed concept of car design in final year of this sort of car design when everyone else perfected their old designs and of course the new design is doomed to struggle before it gets to grips with the things. It might be a clever thing those three teams are doing if they will have big use of it next year.

That is what is happening in this whole tire drama and I'm glad RedBull seems to be finally cought out with it. RedBull drivers are the one who are driving 8/10's, just as you would have to if you were to run hotlap setup in GTR/F1 car in race condition in LFS. RedBull drivers are the only ones to make such statements along with displeasure Mercedes drivers show. I'm just sorry for Mercedes that they didn't recognize earlier what it's all this about since they're even further on this spectrum. Any complaints from McLaren/Sauber/Williams driver about tires is ridicule since it's simply their car being in baby phase of development.

This is exactly why this season is interesting. Because two teams are cought out with stone age thinking, and other three with new car designs. This has nothing to do with the tires! Drivers always tend to make excuses, don't buy too much into them!

i dont give a flying f about whether a team is struggling or not because of this or that, what i care about is racing, and we are not seeing it.

F1 should be more then having one key aspect it should be a combination, drivers should be pushed to there mental edge and shouldn't have to think twice about whether to defend their position when challenged.

Quote from Gougoodthing :

By non-contested do you mean things like lapped cars/passing cars on pit road?

Nah, faster cars passing slower cars who are told they are not in the same race as the car passing them.

Quote from N I K I :

@Mustafur and co: It really sounds to me like you guys want every race to look like Valencia 2011? when 24 cars finished in exactly the same order they started in.

No i just want to see racing, i understand it wasnt good before this all im asking for is a middle ground.

And i could bet 8/10 of those overtakes were non contested.

Statistics dont tell half the story.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Wasn't Bridgestones just a time trial / hotlap fest? I understand your point with the current tire completely, but the "hotlap" era was no different, just the complete other side of the spectrum. It wasn't racing either, just a "lets see how close we can stay until pit stops start happening".

I'm fine with the tires as long as its 2-3 stops per race, but I would rather suggest taking out DRS to see the overtakes be put more into the driver's hands. Will it still have points now where someone is 2 seconds off pace because their tires are 20 laps old and someone else's are 3? Of course, but at least the person with 3 would have to work for it some and not just blow by them on the straight with hardly any effort.

Yeah I understand fully durable Tyres wasn't the best scenario but there has to be a middle ground, I honestly didn't find Pirellis 2011 tyres to be that bad, they where durable for most races and would spring a few surprises here and there, but it wasn't constant Tyre saving above everything.

The Tyres should atleast have an operating window of atleast 10 laps(at an average sized track) where you can drive at or close to the limit I think, where as right now they can never be at the limit as the tyres operating window will die out instantly if they do.

But how the Tyres are now with this Tyre saving and DRS I feel like FIA is trying to insult our intelligence.

Martin Brundle was right when he said the Teams shouldn't be deciding on the spectacle because they only cater for their own interests which is winning, there has to be another way they do this.

Quote from BlueFlame :

You're missing the point. Driving at 9/10 is garenteed to get you to the finish.

It's still about being the fastest driver. It just means that by being fastest you actually reserve some of your 1lap pace over the course of a race so you don't spend 60% of the laps in the pits. The best driver/team still comes out on top.

some reserve?? its about crawling, the best teams will come out on top because they can crawl faster, but still your not seeing anything close to what resembles racing when they are side by side.

What your seeing is a time trial, most drivers are now told to ignore what everyone else is doing and just focus on saving tyres, its not racing as far as Im concerned.