Firstly you haven’t told us why it’s better to have a “slidey car”, why would they trade time to have a car past its grip limits? Is it easier to handle a car over grooves, humps and bumps when the car is sideways? I don’t really get that part.
2ndly, it’s not every corner where your tyres are doing **** all, you should know that setting up a car to deal perfectly with every situation is impossible, it's all about compromise, to have a car which never suffered from understeer would be a car which is ridiculously oversteery and you’d have the rear end stepping out everywhere.
Hence you live with the fact that it some corners are going to induce oversteer through some parts, and some corners are going to induce understeer through parts, you find the happy medium and you deal with it.
Drift is more effective on the tighter corners; of course you wouldn’t use it on wide open bends. Why do rally drivers use drift around tighter corners? Simple, go back and read what I wrote about the rear fighting the front. On hairpins you have more turning lock, this means the front tyres are pointed at more of an angle relative to your rear wheels, this means a lot of work on the front tyres, and a lot less on the rear and that drive through the rear wheels would push more against the front tyres, creating more “power understeer”.
If you were to set the car up so that it didn’t understeer on hairpins, you’d have to dial in tonnes over oversteer and on wider corners it would be impossible to keep the rear end in check, not to mention braking and entry.
Hence you end up with understeer where the rear tyres aren’t working hard. I’m sure you have too muck around with anti-roll at every circuit you go to balancing the car to each circuit.
As far as mid corner oversteer, I don’t have a lot in my car, and that is the same setup I use for drift so it certainly isn’t oversteer biased. All my oversteer is on the exit of the corner, mid corner is understeer.
Last edited by nisskid, .
I’m not sure if I’m wasting my time here because if that's all that you could understand out of my post you’re probably not going to catch onto anything else.
Under and oversteer are inevitable when you’re pushing a car to its limits, one has to go first. The aim is to balance a car, so that it experiences over and understeer equally, well that's the theory.
Now different corners and different parts of the corners are more susceptible to either over or understeer. Under/oversteer occurs when there is an unequal amount of force on the front and rear, enough so to surpass the tyres traction. This means if you are suffering understeer you’re fronts are handling more of the force than the rears relative to your setup.
This is a fact of life, as I said, a well balanced setup will experience both in different parts of the course, in theory if you were able to utilize the rears grip in a understeering situation where the rear traction isn’t being used to its limit, to help share the load of steering, it would make sense right?
This is exactly what you are aiming to do when speed drifting, you are utilizing the rear tyres grip in a situation where the rear grip isn’t being used to the limit to help steering thus pulling you're car through the corner quicker.
People who don’t believe that drift can be quicker, key word CAN, then tell me why they use drift techniques in rally, after all rally and circuit racing are the same shit, same principles behind it, the only difference is the amount of grip they have.
Last edited by nisskid, .
bad advice. only use handbrake the adjust mid slide, only use it to initiate drift when ur learning, but try to shift to other techniques as soon as possible.
Drift in theory CAN be faster.
The front and rear wheels play different parts through a corner, both taking turns in taking more and more force. When racing, mid corner your rear tyres do **** all, your front tyres are trying to pull you r car against the momentum of the car towards the exit of the corner. when you accelerate mid corner, since you r rear wheels are pointing in the same direction of the car, you are actually pushing you r car against you r front tyres to the outside of the corner rather than the exit. this is what creates the understeer (as well as some diff shifting) and is the limiting factor for how fast you can travel through a corner. depending on how your car is setup, the rear tyres are rarely the limiting factor until the exit of the corner.
Essentially what you are doing when speed drifting (note: speed drifting, not the shit you see in most videos) you essentially shift the yaw through the midcorner so the rear tyres are actually pointing towards the exit of the corner, this means that when you accelerate the rear tyres instead of pushing against the front tyres towards the outside of the corner, they are aiding the front tyre's steering by pushing with the front tyres towards the exit of the corner, this means more acceleration without adding understeer.
What people seem to get too caught up on is that the tyres are slipping so instantly there is less grip, well yes in an ideal world where you can put your foot to the floor through every corner, maintain rear traction and not worry about it causing savage understeer, then you'd be right. but here in reality, you’re not using the full traction of your rear tyres 100% of the time, in fact **** all of the time mid corner.
As for why it doesn’t get used much in F1 racing and other elite tarmac racing like that, well besides the obvious tyre wear, the technique would just be too hard to master, getting a perfect speed drift through all corners that require it is bloody hard, especially to a point where it competes with an already very precise technique developed in racing.
This is where rally comes into it, it is a lot less refined, a lot less traction, less tyre wear, and generally the technique doesn’t need to be as precise. The general physics of traction are exaggerated even though they are basically identical, hence why we see them using the drifting technique.
The front and rear wheels play different parts through a corner, both taking turns in taking more and more force. When racing, mid corner your rear tyres do **** all, your front tyres are trying to pull you r car against the momentum of the car towards the exit of the corner. when you accelerate mid corner, since you r rear wheels are pointing in the same direction of the car, you are actually pushing you r car against you r front tyres to the outside of the corner rather than the exit. this is what creates the understeer (as well as some diff shifting) and is the limiting factor for how fast you can travel through a corner. depending on how your car is setup, the rear tyres are rarely the limiting factor until the exit of the corner.
Essentially what you are doing when speed drifting (note: speed drifting, not the shit you see in most videos) you essentially shift the yaw through the midcorner so the rear tyres are actually pointing towards the exit of the corner, this means that when you accelerate the rear tyres instead of pushing against the front tyres towards the outside of the corner, they are aiding the front tyre's steering by pushing with the front tyres towards the exit of the corner, this means more acceleration without adding understeer.
What people seem to get too caught up on is that the tyres are slipping so instantly there is less grip, well yes in an ideal world where you can put your foot to the floor through every corner, maintain rear traction and not worry about it causing savage understeer, then you'd be right. but here in reality, you’re not using the full traction of your rear tyres 100% of the time, in fact **** all of the time mid corner.
As for why it doesn’t get used much in F1 racing and other elite tarmac racing like that, well besides the obvious tyre wear, the technique would just be too hard to master, getting a perfect speed drift through all corners that require it is bloody hard, especially to a point where it competes with an already very precise technique developed in racing.
This is where rally comes into it, it is a lot less refined, a lot less traction, less tyre wear, and generally the technique doesn’t need to be as precise. The general physics of traction are exaggerated even though they are basically identical, hence why we see them using the drifting technique.
Last edited by nisskid, .
speed is only one element, controlling a car within the boundaries of grip is a lot easier than one over the boundaries. with show drift, at a top level the drivers enter into corners at about the same speed as grip, well, with identical cars. the difference is drift wipes off speed a lot quicker and doesnt have the exit speed.
i dont know if uve ever thrown a car sideways at over 100k's coming into a corner, but its a pretty bloody intense thing to do for the first few times and u need to be concentrating heaps as drifting through a corner is a lot more eventful than gripping through it, and u need to be watching things a lot more, quite simply because ur sideways and u have another car next to u that may be trying to pass u, or ur trying to pass him, all the time being judged on.
not sure the relevance of this, but its a point that i agree on and have tried to argue on here before. people dont seem to like being told that they arnt actually drift king because they can drift half well on a game.
how so? u think throwing ur car sideways at 150-200k's side by side with another car doesnt take concentration?
also as far as complication goes, thats more to do with what stage racing is vs drift, drift is still a relatively new sport in the mainstream, and although it is the fastest growing motorsport, its still not at the competitive level as racing. but dont worry, as the budgets go up and the stakes higher, u will see similar development to drift.
one of the biggest issues is that people often think they are better at drifting than they really are. because there is no way to guage there performance on LFS (if someone says that drift score thing im gonna fly over and give u a swift kick to the ovaries) they just think they have mastered it. just like someone not familiar with racing can look at 2 totally different level racers and not see any major difference, luckily for racing its easy to guage, just look at the clock.
unfortunately most people look at drifitng and think, ok so all i have to do is get my car sideways and ive mastered it, they get their car sideways, then think owell this is drifitng, ive already mastered it, drift is easy.
drift is actually a lot more complicated than what probably 97% of the people in this thread think.
unfortunately most people look at drifitng and think, ok so all i have to do is get my car sideways and ive mastered it, they get their car sideways, then think owell this is drifitng, ive already mastered it, drift is easy.
drift is actually a lot more complicated than what probably 97% of the people in this thread think.
he seemed to be able to race pretty well.
i actually dont mind the clutch the feature, i cant really compare it to heavy duty clutches as im not stupid enough to drive in a way which would burn them out in real life, but with a less heavy duty clutches, ive seen clutches go pretty bloody quick, even in cars with low amounts of torque. if u shift properly u wont have any issues.
here's my guide to drifting:
find a big space and practice initiating drift, try 2 things, overtorquing the rear wheels and unsettling the balance of the car. all those techniques above stem off these 2 concepts, they are just different ways of doing it. u can use the clutch, drivetrain friction, braking, steering etc. no point going through them all step by step and trying to do exactly what they say. just get a feel for how to lose the rear end, the characteristics of each technique. then put it into practice on the track, from there u have to experiment with controls and how they affect the car and how u can use them, once again, not much point trying to explain this to someone who is still trying to get down the basics of drifting.
the main thing you remember is that if you are interested in replicating what you see on vids such as D1GP and what ud consider main stream competition drifting, you need to know the criterias for judging. Line, angle and speed, and in chasing battles: duplication and proximity. its hard to gauge how your doing with all this, and its not always a good idea to base urself of what u see in drift servers.
find a big space and practice initiating drift, try 2 things, overtorquing the rear wheels and unsettling the balance of the car. all those techniques above stem off these 2 concepts, they are just different ways of doing it. u can use the clutch, drivetrain friction, braking, steering etc. no point going through them all step by step and trying to do exactly what they say. just get a feel for how to lose the rear end, the characteristics of each technique. then put it into practice on the track, from there u have to experiment with controls and how they affect the car and how u can use them, once again, not much point trying to explain this to someone who is still trying to get down the basics of drifting.
the main thing you remember is that if you are interested in replicating what you see on vids such as D1GP and what ud consider main stream competition drifting, you need to know the criterias for judging. Line, angle and speed, and in chasing battles: duplication and proximity. its hard to gauge how your doing with all this, and its not always a good idea to base urself of what u see in drift servers.
perfectly put. but i think even then, unless you can properly simulate the safety aspect, youll never really get a proper feel for it all. but id say thats mostly a "fun" aspect to give you that extra buzz, as far as being able to use the simulator to help you with ur driving, i think its very realistic to think once driving simulators get better they will be a useful tool in helping professional drivers.
i dont understand this, what are u trying to say? all i said was that the comparison of wii and hand eye coordination wasnt anything like the comparison of LFS and real life driving skill.
yeh its real, its a real driving simulator.
lol, mm tell that to the many that have switched from professional racing to drift, they may have something to say about that.
no, i dont have any idea of what im talking about, dont listen to me, im sure you know a lot more, after all you play LFS so you should know everything there is to know.
and yes im getting imature, but give me a break ive had a long day, one involving sitting in 40+degree heat for about 5 hours, 2x1 hour drives, testing positive for weed at a cop RBT, and getting my car defected.
tristan, as i said before, im not going to reply to you anymore, im not going to read your posts and reply to them, so dont waste your time.
actually the question was stupid, because there are so many variables that he didnt discuss that would dramatically affect the result. the personality was just one, this would affect how the driver would use the information they have learnt. without this extra information its hard to make a proper answer. and even so, the question didnt really touch on my argument, i never said that LFS wouldnt help, i said that it they wouldnt be able to transfer all their knowledge straight from LFS to real life, and be a awesome driver their first day out.
maybe in F1 and open wheelers, the braking issues dont become as apparent, but youve got to understand, the weight these cars have is nothing, they run massive brakes, massive ventilation, high tech brakes, this makes it a hell of a lot easier to over come brake heating issues.
in full car racing, the most popular type of racing, they have to stop a lot more weight, now as i tried to explain to ur friend, bigger mass means a few things, most relevant here being momentum, and grip levels, more weight going in a direction, means it needs more force to stop it, more weight pushing the tyres to the ground means the tyres have more grip. this means the tyres are able to take larger loads of force, so the braking force can be a lot higher, unfortunately this extra grip and braking force is canceled out by the fact that there is more momentum to wipe off, so the brakes still have to be under load for longer periods of time. this means that the brakes are braking with more force, aka the pads being pushed against the disk harder, and longer. this means a lot more brake heat.
in modern day racing, overheating and failing brakes are still a very apparent issue in full size car racing, especially in divisions where there are rules and regs regarding brake restrictions etc. hence why you see big ducts made to feel cool air to the brakes.
alright wait up, its just i see a post, reply, then see another one later and reply to that. im in a hurry too, was meant to leave for our local drift comp like 20 mins ago lol
im not wasting my time trying to argue with you anymore, its clear that from what ive seen and what others have said about you that its not going to go anywhere. looking at how you talk about brakes tells me pretty well how little you really know and how you cant seem to grasp even the most simple concepts, and with the seats, how you just change your argument to something not even relavent, i talked about racing the XRT in LFS, and how ud have to compare that to racing a stock car like the XRT in real life, u said the stock seats would cope, now ur saying that they would only cope with its application aka driving around the streets, how the hell is that relavent?
seriously, i could keep poking holes in your argument all day, but your just going to respond with some reply that will just infuriate me at how much you have either missed the point, or simply just chose to ignore anything ive said and make up something urself.
ok, anyone else want to have a proper discussion? lol
yeh, that image from before about not going to bed because someone on the internet was wrong came to mind. haha
seriously, i could keep poking holes in your argument all day, but your just going to respond with some reply that will just infuriate me at how much you have either missed the point, or simply just chose to ignore anything ive said and make up something urself.
ok, anyone else want to have a proper discussion? lol
yeh, that image from before about not going to bed because someone on the internet was wrong came to mind. haha
Last edited by SamH, .
Reason : Multiple posts merged
unfortunately or fortunately (im still undecided haha) im a very argumentative person, but at the same time ive had enough arguments to know that as soon as you stoop to petty insults you lose any credibility you may have built up, thats why i have tried to keep them out, unfortunately its hard to have an argument like this without getting a bit frustrated, so sometimes i can let my guard down.
um no, the seats simply do not hold u in place well, you will move around and u will need to use different parts of your body to hold you up, you will not be kept still and it will affect ur ability to control the car.
exactly, heavier cars take longer to slow down, this means longer on the brakes, meaning they are engaged longer, meaning more heat build up. not to mention the brakes need to apply more force to slow the car down, so as i mentioned, brakes are engaged longer and harder, meaning a lot of heat.
bigger brakes arnt always an option, mostly due to racing regulations, but also wheel limitations etc due to the size of the disks etc.
youve never heard of race cars with overheating brakes? um, have you been living in a rock for the last, oh i dunno, since the existence of motorsport? brakes are one of the main issues race cars deal with, if u want specific proof, well i was only reading a article about the R32 GTR in Australia a day or 2 ago, and one of the major issues they were facing was overheating brakes. if you want i can link you to the article, but i have to say i feel weird about putting the spot light on one specific team dealing with this issue, when its an issue that has to be dealt with every day by most teams.
if you can transfer the skills learnt from LFS at a basic level so easily, then why cant you at a higher level?
depends on their personalities, if the guy that played LFS was like a few of the people on here and thought he'd be an awesome driver straight off he'd probably find himself in a sand trap on the first corner.
if they are like what most people i see and talk with are like, they will get a feel for the track before they focus on going for low lap times, and if they get confident and comfortable enough, then who knows, he may be a little bit faster he may not, i dont know, i personally think the guy that has played LFS might be slightly faster, depends how he uses what he has learnt on LFS and whether he is able to even use it. this doesnt go against my argument, i have never doubted the possibility of slight advantages gain, i was just talking about the people who think they will be competitive as soon as they get in the car as they were competitive in LFS.
but id put this to you, same situation, except the driver who hadnt played LFS had already had a track day, who do you think would win?
so true, most track days i dont get much sleep due to a shit sleep pattern, hell once id only got 2-3 hours sleep, i got out there and felt so shit, i was seriously at a point where i wanted to go to sleep but was in so much pain from being tired i couldnt get to sleep. got out on the track and couldnt feel a thing, walked around all day like id had 10 hours sleep, even having to jack up and change tyres every session or so. when i leave from these events im usually so tired is kinda dangerous, get home and ill just sleep. even tho 1 hour ago i was alert as all ****.
its a great thing, but it can be dangerous on the come down.
tbh, im over writing these posts, as much as i want to respond, i just cant see any point, you are content with your opinion. im only going to respond to things i think we can actually talk about without going in circles.
its called an analogy, i meant that a small amount of something all the time doesnt necessarily mean you will be ready for a lot of it.
have you raced cars around a circuit with just stock seats and seat belts? do you realise that most stock seats arent even bucket seats? and that most bucket seats in sports cars still use very small sides which still struggle to hold someone.
er...did u forget the part about momentum, and how its harder to stop a car that weighs at least 2-3 times more? if tyres were the same, and brakes were the same, not only would the brakes need to bite in harder for more need of braking force, but they would need to be under force for longer, this means an increase of heat, this combined with the fact the brakes are hidden behind body panels and not out un protected in the wind, means heat.
owell, i guess your right, i just hope the thousands of professional drivers dont see this game and use it to improve their driving by what was it, 10 or even 100 fold? to think of all those suckers, spending time on the track practicing when they could be at home on their computers increasing their learning curve by 10 or 100 fold.
its called an analogy, i meant that a small amount of something all the time doesnt necessarily mean you will be ready for a lot of it.
have you raced cars around a circuit with just stock seats and seat belts? do you realise that most stock seats arent even bucket seats? and that most bucket seats in sports cars still use very small sides which still struggle to hold someone.
er...did u forget the part about momentum, and how its harder to stop a car that weighs at least 2-3 times more? if tyres were the same, and brakes were the same, not only would the brakes need to bite in harder for more need of braking force, but they would need to be under force for longer, this means an increase of heat, this combined with the fact the brakes are hidden behind body panels and not out un protected in the wind, means heat.
owell, i guess your right, i just hope the thousands of professional drivers dont see this game and use it to improve their driving by what was it, 10 or even 100 fold? to think of all those suckers, spending time on the track practicing when they could be at home on their computers increasing their learning curve by 10 or 100 fold.
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