if you're having trouble with oversteer try softening the rear anti-roll, there are tonnes of other shit you can try, but generally you'd have to look at the existing setup first.

drift is when the car drifts, simple, it's an extremely broad term. even if it's just the rear that drifts, i guess technically understeer could be considered a type of drift.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Let's get this straight. You are callling drifting as in big angles for show "drifting", drifting as in '4-wheel drift' "drifting", slight yaw angles brought about by turning "drifting" and no yaw angles at all "gripping".

In which case drifting is faster than gripping as you couldn't go round corners without some yaw.

Let's clear it up then. Drifting used to be a term about a controlled but fast slide around a corner at an optimum angle/% slip etc. The term 4-wheel drift applies to this. These days the term has been butchered by idiots, so a drift is when you are far too sideways through a corner, producing lots of smoke, lots of noise and lots of tyre wear.

what has this cleared up?

i said to start with that the drift i was talking about was not the shit you see in the sport "drifting", if you were under any other impression it just shows that you didn't properly read my posts.

Quote from tristancliffe :

These days the term has been butchered by idiots, so a drift is when you are far too sideways through a corner, producing lots of smoke, lots of noise and lots of tyre wear.

Idiots? Drifting describes perfectly what they are doing, how is it idiotic?

I think you'd show a little bit more respect towards drifting if you'd actually tried it.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Gripping is what a moron calls not driving like a fool - using the yaw of the car and the slip angles of the tyres etc etc to get the most lateral force. Both drifting and 'gripping' require grip, so it's a stupid thing to call it. But then, in the world of the drifter, the one brain-celled man is king.

Once again, drifting is driving like a fool?

Like i said before, you give me a better term to use and i will, so far you haven't, but thanks for calling me a moron anyway.

Quote from Zen321 :

Man, I don't wanna seem rude, but if you don't make the effort to choose appropriate terms for a discussion, then there's no point having it.
Since you don't seem to want a proper discussion, but instead being right at all cost, glad wheel4hummer killed the debate.

drift is the correct term, just like sliding is etc etc, there isnt just one term to describe what we are talking about here.

just an update on my car, it's been under a lot since i last posted it.

Car:
1989 Nissan HCR32
Skyline GTS-t 4 door Type-M

Performance:
RB20DET
T3 RB25 Turbo
Turbotech Pnumatic Boost Controller
K&N Pod Filter
GKtech Front-Mounted Intercooler
Drift brand Exhaust Control Valve
AM Performance 3" Split dump pipe with screamer
3" Custom Catback exhaust with JunBL muffler and twin Flutes, gutted cat
Straight pipe attachment to replace muffler for track
Bosch 040 fuel pump
Excedy Heavy Duty Button Clutch
TSL Remapped ECU
Power: 183rwkw at 12psi

Handling
Auto Strada Modena 3pce Wheels 17x8.5 and 17x9.5
OZ racing 3pce wheels 17x9 +24
Whiteline Adjustable Camber arms
Whiteline Adjustable Tracton arms
Whiteline adjustable 24/22 Sway Bars
Cusco adjustable front strut brace
ISC Adjustable Caster rods
Bilstein/Eibach Coilovers 6/4kg
Whiteline rear urethane subframe bushes
Modified S13 Rear subframe w/ custom toe rod mounts
Steering Rack Spacer
Alignment: +5.5 caster, -1.5 R&F camber, R-toe in 2mm

Other
GTR front bar
Autometer semi-sweep electric Oil Pressure
Autometer mechanical Boost/Vaccum Gauge
Manual Conversion
GKtech 350mm dished steering wheel
Sparco Rev fixed bucket seat


PICS





Vids(latest):
Drift: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf_XQLMY__E
Time Attack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL1kB1PG-Xo

Last edited by nisskid, Sun 30 Nov 2008, 18:57.

Quote from KLepind :

My friend. VW GOLF MK.2. 1.8 66kW

http://images.orkut.com/orkut/ ... 3FoXzclFyn-DOkhlyj9XA.jpg

haha, get some good wheel fitment on those things and they will look tough as nails.

Quote from Scrabby :

meh stock bumpers, nicer rims and drop it on the floor with look it way better . Just do it with the FZ5, drop it all the way down with some amount of negative camber and you have a nice car

im with you, that kit is terrible haha.

Quote from Klutch :

Rare?

I see rx7's all the time :P


I pity you americans.

bah, no pity here, they are the ones that chose to be RHD :P

but yeh, RX7's, even FD's are dime a dozen over her.

nice car tho.

Last edited by nisskid, Sun 30 Nov 2008, 15:57.

Quote from Zen321 :

In order to prevent future misunderstanding, you would rather define what you mean by drifting. On that forum, drifting means literally : D1GP. So when you say "Drift CAN be faster than normal racing", people automatically compare D1GP to DTM. In that case, they are right.

Read the message I shown you about sliding some pages ago. As you saw, I did not demonstrate something much different than your point, but I used the right word, and people agreed with me.
Definitions are important :
- "Drifting is faster than normal racing" : a big NO NO.
- "Sliding is faster than normal racing" : a big YES according to the demonstration I made in my post.

But drifting and sliding are two different things that light different areas of the forumers brains :
- Drifting is the show motorsport
- Sliding is the racing technique of using the tires' slip angles.

So basically, you're not wrong if you mean sliding. If you mean D1GP, you're deeply wrong that time (but I know you don't). That's why definitions are so important.
You want to use "gripping" to define the standard way of racing, and it is a new word to define it. So, if you don't want to come back to the roots of this definitions, please do not come back to the roots of the word drifting (when it was a racing technique), since now it means something else


And also, when done properly, they look completely different. I did not see your video, but I bet that it is drifting. If you are interested, stay in touch with me, and I can send you some replays that will show you what sliding is about Then you can watch them and see whether your definition matches what it is

so this is coming down to a differ in terms?

by drifting i mean drifting, if you like to call it sliding then good for you. the sport drifting originated from the term to describe the tyres "drifting" through a corner, just because drifting is now a sport doesnt take away it's original definition, i explained this early on, if people didn't see it or read it then that isn't my fault.

also my video was generally more angle than needed, but like i said i wasnt that good back then and holding more angle was easier.

Quote from pine-fin :

You should write a letter to Stewart and suggest F1 cars start drifting if it indeed is the fastest way to drive around corners? Or maybe they should only drift in qualifying?

http://i79.photobucket.com/alb ... id/Misc/SiskoAnimated.gif

Quote from de Souza :

Maybe 50 people got the point of the discussion and one missed it. Anyway, it's about what's fast in a race: drifting or not. And I told you that if you need to make sure to have a lot of variables at a certain state (no traffic, nearly 100% perfect brake points, lines, apexes all the time; few laps because of tyre wear/heat) for drifting to be faster, is that even a race?

i never made the statement that drift was a better way to race, this seems to have been lost along the way, and by along the way i mean at the start.

the only bold statement i made was that drift CAN be faster, not that it is faster.

would you agree that in some situations drifting around a corner can be faster than maintaining full traction?

Quote from de Souza :

Wow that's useful. So, speedrift is faster in a race where you're alone and lasts two laps... Sweet.

you are lucky caller number 50 to completely miss the point. congrats.

Quote from de Souza :

Judging by your online pb's you were obviously "gripping"? A bit too much perhaps?

wow, im flattered that you went to do a a background check on me, not that it's really relavent as i can't even remember the last time i went racing. Those pb's were probably all set show drifting, hence not giving a shit about time.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

It's not like LFS's physics are perfect and simulate real life completely. Who knows, the fact that you were so much faster then the AI may have been many other factors. Maybe you should compare your time to the WR instead.

the fact that i was so much faster than AI was because AI is shit. I wasn't much better at the time, but yeh.

Quote from tristancliffe :

The grip vs drift thing. Was that you (or another human) versus the AI? And does that not show that 'gripping' is as quick as drifting when the 'gripping' is done badly several seconds off the pace, with poor lines and poor technique?

tbh i was pretty shit back then as well haha. that was back in '06 ffs.

if you look at it though there are a few times where i lost speed because how much faster i was going than the AI, and since i was drifting it wasn't as easy to slow down without ****ing up. one of the biggest issues with drift is doing it over and over again perfectly, a lot easier to maintain a fast line holding traction, but u can so easily **** up a drift causing you a lot of speed, when you put another car in the equation it just gets more complicated. when you drift you have to know the corner and setup your car perfectly, any inconsistancies in line, speed or anything really, and it's much harder to make corrections.

watch coming out of the first S bend, even with a bit too much angle on the exit costing me speed i still had too much exit speed and had to hit the anchors, i probably could have taken him in the next corner under braking, but i was planning on taking him on the next part, hence why you can see me slowing down on the next straight to let him get some distance, so i had enough distance to pull the move i did.

not saying it means anything, but you're blind if you cant see a massive speed difference in that vid.

Quote from Jertje :

1. Pick up 5 books on racing (speed secrets, going faster, whatever)
2. Read them.
3. Try to find a chapter on drifting to increase lap times.
4. ?????
5. Profit.

Wow, you completely missed the whole point of the argument, congrats and good luck with future posts.

Quote from tristancliffe :

So speed drifters can't keep up with AI, but a racer can leave them in the dust easily. Thanks for proving our point (and that's with LFS's physics that give a bit of advantage to drifters!)

Not sure where you got that from :S

Quote from tristancliffe :

Although the racer wasn't very good - poor lines and clearly sub optimal driving.

And stop calling it gripping. Next you'll say that drifting doesn't require grip.

What do you want me to call it? Racing would be a poor term as it doesn't only refer to the technique. You can drift race, so it's far too broad. If you want to come up with a better word then please tell me, but i think at least we all know what we mean when we refer to grip, getting hung up on technicalities like that aren't really going to help.

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

I also have to add that I was a drifter before and I know that it's totally slow. Even if your brake point is later than the racer itself your still slower at the end of the corners.

Try yourself, drive the xrg on ctra 1 I'm 1000000% sure that you wont make a chance. So stop talking crap. It's just proven a million times.

i can guarentee you the reason why you were slow when drifting was to do with your technique and setup. I see a lot of drifters setups they ask me to correct and majority of the setups i see are laughable.

As far as drift, if you are doing it like the rest of people on LFS then yes, you will be slower.

Quote from amp88 :

The topic is titled "Drift vs Grip" and the OP wanted to know which was quicker. We can discuss theory, slip angles, oversteer and understeer all day long. At the end of the day all that matters is which is quicker in practise. Get the absolute best speed drifter in LFS to do a drift hotlap and see how it compares to the world record.

that's not the point, he said the theory was wrong, i asked what was wrong with the theory.

I made it clear at the start that it was all theoretical, if you didn't like that then you shouldn't have read on, simple.

Oh and for the record there arent many decent speed drifters around, 99% of drifters only practice "show" drift, or what ever you want to call the mainsteam style.

For a while i practiced speed drift and got it down fairly well, my times were faster that grip, but i was never that fantastic at grip. I remember back then i would sometimes go into race servers and use speed drift, and it would be very competitive, and that was with keyboard.

for anyone that can't get their head around what speed drift looks like this might help: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-FyLFf5emE

ignore the comparison, but shows the kind of technique which can be used.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

It will IMO never be faster, even in theory its wrong, so im asking you or someone capable go and prove it.

what's wrong with the theory?

Quote from Zen321 :

Please don't be condescendent. I was not with you, so please do not with me.

Thanks.

Now that it is said, my post was explaining to you WHY a high locking differential was still effective even when "drifting" (high angle, low traction). So it was an answer to your post in which you clearly said : "the off-gas understeer isn't wanted on purpose, since it only happens when the tires grip the road and not while the tires are skidding". You seem to be a logical person which can hold a reasonable flow of thought, so I bet you understand now what I was posting.

____

Also.

The locked diff and a LSD works on very different ways. A locked diff means either a welded open diff (so that the wheels always spin at the same speed), or simply no differential at all (which will have the same effect as in my previous parenthesis).
As opposed to, a 2-way clutch pack LSD means that the wheels will lock at the same amount on power and on coast but not always. A CPLSD is meant to "activate" itself after it has sensed a torque mismatch between the both wheels (which is symbolized by the preload clutches inside the differential). The more preload there is, the less torque mismatch you will need to reach the critical value of torque mismatch at which the wheels start locking each other. Which is already very different and more complex than a standard locked diff. If it behaved the same, you would have a poor turn in, while the 2-way is meant to have stability in turning, without sacrificing much turn-in power (in sense of ability).

A 1.5-way CPLSD is a differential which will lock the wheels on coast, but, generally, half of the locking value of the locking on power. If, when you apply throttle and there is a torque mismatch (understand : one wheel starts spinning), the differentials locks itself at 100% (both wheels turn at the same speed), when decelerating and cornering, if one wheel starts skidding, the diff will lock at 50% (the opposed wheel will spin at half the speed of the skidding wheel). This means less stability, but better turn-in. It is a compromise, and it is generally up to the driver or the mechanic to arbitrate between both of them.

_____

"Drifting" literally means : "to deviate gently from a direction".

I agree with you about the deviation of the initial definition, but since you say people tend to be allergic to the actual meaning of drift, let's move over, and call the racing technique with an another name (which I called sliding in my previous posts).

We are not close-minded to your thoughts, and it is good that at least someone can think over the publicly accepted meaning of drift. However, we are in gentlemen, and stating our thoughts as well, which may interefere with yours.
When you want us to be open-minded, you don't seem to realize that some of us here are (tristancliffe, me, etc). Because we accept your theory, and we answer it with arguements. Being close-minded would be not to hear it, or saying that it's BS and don't say why (which is exetremely frustrating, I reckon). Openmindedness do not mean by any chances : accepting a theory without confronting it with facts.

Plus, we explain you in a very calm and soft manner why your theory is not complete (not wrong, not complete). So there is no need to get aggressive or qualify us as close minded, when it is obviously the case that we do our best not to be.

sorry, it was a quick post and I didn’t really have time to read it properly, hence I wasn’t 100% sure what you were talking about.

I think what I meant was that I didn’t so much disagree with you, but that it wasn’t really relevant to my argument.

As far as the diff is concerned, once again, not really relevant here, I don’t disagree with you there, I think you just misinterpreted my point when I was talking about diffs.

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

Prove it then FFS.

did the part about theory and practice go over your head, or did u just not read my post at all?

Quote from Zen321 :

For your first paragraph : maybe because using 90% of the available traction is better than using only 30% ? Just my guess...

For your second paragraph : seting up cars is about balance. In a RWD, you have a lot of grip at the rear and, personnally, I use setups with wheel set up to understeer, while the ARB of the car are meant to oversteer. In that case, my rear wheels have traction, and I don't sacrifice my cornering power. So in a well set up car, sliding is not the bi-product of less grip to the rear, it is induced by the driver.

For your third paragraph, drifters don't use locked diff, they use high-locking LSD. And yes, when you release the throttle, you will have understeer, like you will have oversteer when you apply it. If you couple this with both front and rear suspension having the same damping settings, you will increase even more this effect (understeer while releasing gas, oversteer with pushing it). Add a shot of ARB set up you feel comfortable with, and you have a good drift setup.
What I mean is that, if the differential did not do anything about the understeer when the wheels are sliding, it means that your suspension setup isn't balanced with the diff : suspension for ultra-oversteer off-gas will result in a conflict between the sprung mass (the chassis) wanting to oversteer, and the unsprung mass (wheels) wanting to reduce the oversteer. And since the sprung mass is heavier, its inertia will win and you will have a long spin (180° while travelling in a straight line).

If your car is set up the other way : suspension (off gas understeer), diff (off gas oversteer with a low coast preload), then your car won't spin because of its inertia, it will just spin where it is now and do more than 180° because the wheels won't stop the oversteer of a car.

My point being : even when you are drifting, the diff on coast is very important. Drifting is not like having NO grip at all : there is still friction between the road and the car, otherwise you wouldn't hear the tires screaming... There is still friction, but just a slight little bit (5%, this is why your tires heat up). And if there is friction, than the coast setting of the LSD is as much important as the power setting.

I have no idea what you just wrote but I’m 95% sure it has nothing to do with my point.

Locked diffs and the popular 2way mechanical LSD work in very similar ways, I din’s see much point getting into technicalities. I was comparing it to something like a 1.5way which is popular for a lot of racers which isn't "locked" on decal unlike a locked or 2 way diff.

I'm not real sure what the rest of the post about, but it looked like if anything u were agreeing with some of my points.

Quote from wheel4hummer :

Sorry, your terminology really is pissing me off. It's not called "gripping". Using oversteer as an advantage in a race IS NOT drifting. Drifting is a sport where participants are judged based on style, how much smoke they make, and stuff like that. If a driver in a race chooses to use oversteer to their advantage, it is false to say "oh rally drivers drift corners sometimes". No. They're not drifting a corner. They are oversteering, but not drifting. If they were drifting then they would be getting points for sliding. But they aren't. Therefore it isn't drifting. That's like saying that if I pass someone on the highway, I must be racing them.

There's drifting then there's drifting.

Drifting can be considered a technique or an even something you use to describe an action. Drifting is also a sport.

Unfortunately these days you can't mention the word drift without conjuring up scenes from F&F Tokyo Drift in people's heads, but what I’m actually talking about is the motion of a car "drifting", nothing to do with the developed sport.

I know people often get on the defensive in these topics, but it's important to remember that all I’m saying is I think it's possible for drift to be faster than grip, in theory at least. Whether that be overcoming poor setup. poor conditions etc etc. I would argue that it's already proved in rally to an extent.

There are so many factors that make it not the case in practice, but I think it's good to theorise some times, something I think people struggle to do, maybe be a bit more open mind to possibilities.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Because on a mixed stage it might be better to have a car that handles well on the loose surface more than it's better to have a car than handles well on the tarmac. It's a trade off.

nah, they do it because it's the fastest way around the corner. when they try to go straight in gripping they end up understeering and having poor exit speed.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Indeed it is a compromise, but if your rear tyres are ever doing naff all then you will be slow (except in a FWD car when they might do very little on a straight).

Indeed, but even during understeer your rear wheels will still be exploring the limits of adhesion - just they'll be on the other side of 'the limit'.

On tight corners (e.g. tighter than anything in LFS) drifting around it would indeed be quicker, mostly because the rate of yaw is quicker and the rate of acceleration out of a slower corner (lots of excess torque) makes up for it.

Really we should look at the reason why i made this point, and it was because people were saying that the grip you lose when you break traction instantly tells us that drift will be slower. My point is if you're not using 100% of the rear grip, then why do you need 100% grip.

You may have less grip at the rear, but it is being used in a more efficient manner.

Quote from tristancliffe :

And that is why drifters like locked diffs - lots of understeer. It seems backwards doesn't it - someone who wants to spend time in oversteer setting the car up for understeer! But that is what they seem to do.

lol please tell me you're not serious are you? The reason why locked diffs are preferably is because when feathering the throttle the diff doesn't shift going from acceleration to decceleration. The understeer caused from locked or 2 way diffs is only present when the tyres havnt' broken traction, once the traction is broken the diff doesnt contribute to any understeer until you grip back up. The entry understeer is a bi-product, but any decent drifter will overcome it with a decent initiation and they wont see the bi-product again until after they have finished drifting.

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Oh my.. someone's arguing about car dynamics with Tristan.

DO YOU HAVE A DEATHWISH?

been there, done that. don't let his stubbornness fool you :P