Quote from Stynax :

PS: I use mouse, and automatic, though I can use manual too.

not a good start, control with gears is extremely helpful.

Quote from AndroidXP :

In this (and only this) situation the rear tyres only do little if you don't make them steer (=slide) enough. Congrats, you just described the one situation where we all agree drifting is most definitely faster (if you didn't notice, going around a cone = hairpin).

and remind me what my original point was?

wait i'll do it for you: Drift CAN be faster,

it CAN be faster, im right and i win

*covers ears

la la la la

Quote from bbman :

That's why you can floor it right away going into a tight corner - oh wait... F*ck all, yeah right... :rolleyes:

Pic is a RAC in LfS' one of two tightest corners, being mid-engined the car has quite a bit of grip on the rear from the start... Notice how the car is coasting and even on this very understeery setup, the outside rear tyre is working quite hard to keep traction?

no u cant floor it into a tight corner like that, because it will push so violently against ur steering angle it will just understeer you. also due to the lack of speed, lower gear, and often a tight diff, it is very easy to power oversteer. this is irrelavent how ever to my point.

also with that pic, not exactly a cone like in my example, but what do those colours mean exactly? for instance the front are red and the rear is green. i still dont know about a lot of these features in LFS, but it looks to me like it indicates either suspension com[pression or force on the tyres.

Quote from AndroidXP :

It doesn't matter if it's relative or absolute. If you say the rear tyres do f*** all then that would mean they do nothing (obviously not correct), if you say they do f*** all compared to the front tyres then that would mean the front tyres do the majority of the work, which isn't correct either.

it wasnt phrased too well i admit. but it does make a difference whether its absolute or relative, i meant relative to the fronts, and on some corners the rear tyres are using **** all of their lateral grip. i made this very clear, so once again my statement was true.

say u go to drive around a cone, turn in, coast around then power out, how much rear lateral grip do you think you're using in the mid corner before applying throttle out of the corner on the exit? i can tell you, **** all. an extreme example, but it demonstrates whats going on.

Last edited by nisskid, Thu 4 Dec 2008, 18:05.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Isn't that the generally accepted meaning of "**** all" (though I still don't actually know what **** stands for, but I'm making an educated guess it begins with f)? Or is this another example of you using terminology badly?

the term is relative not absolute, so no.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Corrected. That is what I said. If you are using 99% of the front tyres potential grip but only 1% of the rears then you will be slow. It needs to more like 99/90. This came about as you claimed the rear tyres do **** all mid corner.

lol you thought i meant the rear tyres do 1% of the work?

Quote from Zen321 :

Okay, that's why I wanted you to precise what you called mid-corner
So yeah, sliding in the first part of the corner is good. You are right when you say that the front tires are the limiting factor : because they usually have enough grip during this transient.

yeh this is what was being contested early on in the thread, tristan was saying that a car should be on the rear tyres limit through the whole of the corner including mid-corner.

Quote from Zen321 :

I think you have a wrong idea of cornering. I am by now way condescendent or harsh, and I don't mean to be that way.
You have to think about transients. Let's take the different transients of cornering :
*) Increasing brakes while increasing turn in | Understeer
1) Decreasing brakes/throttle while increasing turn in | Oversteer
2) 0 foot input while increasing turn in | Neutral
3) Increasing throttle while decreasing turn in | Understeer

Those are the four basics effects of cornering with a FR car. (what the car will tend to do on it's own). So, what you call mid-corner, would be the moment where the only inputs are the steering ones, because it occurs between the moment of right before you hit the apex and right after hitting it?
If it is the case, then you are wrong to assume the most important phase of a fast drift occurs here. There are actually two types of fast drifts (low angle - based on the tires' slip angle - lots of grip even if sliding - constant "relative angle" with the racing line, and progressive angle with the exit direction - 4 wheels are sliding) :

A) One which is very entry-oriented, in which you enter the corner with a tad more speed than you would do if you kept your tires sticking to the road. During transient 1, you get your tire to the angle you like. If you catch too much angle, and think that it could jeopardize your balance when you'll apply the throttle, then you use very briefly transient * to stabilize the angle. During transient 2, your car should keep the same momentum, and the same "relative angle". During transient 3, your car will still slide a bit, and regain the grip roughly around halfway between the apex and the exit point.
This is done mainly in tight corners, where sliding can help carrying the momentum, on low powered and light cars. The angles can be "quite high" here, depending on the nature of the corner, its line, whether it is uphill or downhill, etc.
B) One which is more exit-oriented than A. In transient one, you launch your car so that it will have a lower angle than in A. In transient two, you do nothing, and by the time you have reached the apex, you'll start regaining grip, and exit in transient 3 as a normal exit. This is better for either fast corners, or heavy cars, in order to prevent the inertia to create unwanted extra-understeer.

So basically, mid-corner should only be a non-important, transition point. Why ? Because if you try to kepe the traction in transient 1, then slide in transient two, and keep the traction in transient 3, you'll just break the momentum of the car. Breaking momentum = Slower.

I have to say that the transient I said above are the general behavior of a FR car regarding the mass transfers. A MR or RR car would have entry understeer (too much weight at the rear) and exit oversteer (the rear weighs too much for the tires to handle, and it is easy to break it free).
A slide is useful only if your setup behaves in order to increase the effects of the mass transfers.
This is why we can't say that a slide if always faster or always slower than not sliding. It depends on how the driver drives and how the car is set up. If it is set up for stability, then sticking to the road would be faster (if one of the ends break free, then you'll understeer really bad). If your car is set up to use the mass transfers as a way to increase it's cornering power (low front damping/high rear damping for FR cars | high front damping/compression-rebound rear damping quasi equal for a MR-RR car), then you might consider sliding.

But, stop the OT : please precise what you call mid-corner. Does it matches the definition it gave above? Otherwise, please explain

i think you'd be surprised at how close our opinions are, the main issue i see is we are getting caught up too much on technicalities that aren't really imperative to the discussion.

i think there is a bit of misunderstanding of what we both are trying to say, which seems to be caused mostly by different terminology used differently.

Quote :

A) One which is very entry-oriented, in which you enter the corner with a tad more speed than you would do if you kept your tires sticking to the road. During transient 1, you get your tire to the angle you like. If you catch too much angle, and think that it could jeopardize your balance when you'll apply the throttle, then you use very briefly transient * to stabilize the angle. During transient 2, your car should keep the same momentum, and the same "relative angle". During transient 3, your car will still slide a bit, and regain the grip roughly around halfway between the apex and the exit point.
This is done mainly in tight corners, where sliding can help carrying the momentum, on low powered and light cars. The angles can be "quite high" here, depending on the nature of the corner, its line, whether it is uphill or downhill, etc.

this is what i am talking about mostly, and yeh its all about momentum.

Quote :

So, what you call mid-corner, would be the moment where the only inputs are the steering ones, because it occurs between the moment of right before you hit the apex and right after hitting it?

i think you could probably say its between the first real turn in towards the apex, and before you go full throttle.

i remember a quote from a top gear episode a while back where a former F1 driver was teaching jeremy to race, and he said don't hit the throttle until you know you wont have to back off for the rest of the corner.

which once again feeds my statement that mid corner the rear tyres are not doing as much as the fronts are without acceleration or much decceleration, and that during that period the front tyres are the limiting factor.

Quote from Zen321 :

Wrong.

His dramatic speed loss is not due to his line, which are okay, but it is due to the difference in slip angles between front wheels and rear wheels.

Look at how much he needs to countersteer to keep the full throttle to prevent spinning (the rear wheels spin really hard on the downhill part).
As I said, Tsuchiya made Pluspy and Pluspy II as show drift (holding the drift longer than what is optimal, and with a too high angle and difference of angle between the frnt and the rear wheels). As I said, he intentionally made this video for fun show drift, because he is more skilled than that.

So this video has got nothing to do with the origins of drift. People say that drift (with your meaning : a way to clear corners faster) was born in the mountain of Japan, which is wrong again : it was popularized in the street culture, because of the nature of the track (low grip, tight corners and winding path where entry speed matters slightly more than exit speed).
However, it existed back in the 60's, especially on the Porsches (mid-ship, so exit oversteer was not really avoidable at that time, even with the best setups), would it be for track or asphalt rallye racing.

We agree that sliding was at first a way to be fast, and bbman explained also why. We also agree that drift now is a motorsport based on show. And we agree also that sliding is not fast in every situation : since it is more demanding on the tires, people would actually do it on short runs, and only on some corners where the gain of being in the slip-zone is much more important that having your 4 wheels gripping on the road. We finally agree that oversteer slide (from the wheel POV : front grip, rear no grip) at the exits will always be slower than having your rearies grip the road (on a RWD).

i actually mentioned that he adopted the style from on track racing, i was talking about the origins of where it made the transition from a race technique on the track to "drifting". if that makes sense (hard to word)

i think a few good drifts int hat vid to look at are 3:18, probably not overly effective on such a long corner, not to mention a bit too much angle on the exit, but a good example none the less of angle control mid corner. 1:40 looks very promising before they cut, 2:40 isnt too bad either. there are tonnes of corners where he doesnt drift and he suffers from both mid corner understeer or oversteer on the exit which absolutely kill his speed. when he pulls off a decent drift the speed is maintained really well throughout the corner.

let's remember though simply having oversteer on the exit of the corner is not drift, in fact it's the opposite really of what a fast drift is aiming at, those instances where he has oversteer on the exit are usually as a result of maintaining traction mid corner.

a fast drift is all mid corner with as little entry drift as you can manage, this is because this is where the rears are doing the least work, when you start exiting the corner and working the rear tyres you want to be straight again with full traction on the rears.

like i said it's a shame the style shown in the vid wasnt continued and refined, as obviously it is very rough, but i think it has massive potential, especially for the low powered RWD cars through tight courses where they have sharper corners and less room to apex the corner.

the main issue with keiichi's drifting in that vid was anything resembling a half effective drift was few and far between.

Quote from March Hare :

Anyone notice the lap time? Looks like 1:44.something... IIRC my standing start laps on the old BL1r were in the vicinity of 1:35 or 1:36 with the XRT. And I'm slow.

yeh that guys line and angle was all over the place, makes you wonder what exactly was wrong with the other car.

Quote from masternick :

i dont see where he attacked you or called you a idiot on his last post, also the "snap" is from the rear wheels griping up really fast and sending you the way your front wheels are facing wich is really hard to recover from but with a good setup this shouldnt happen anyway

yeh i agree, the snapping mid-drift shouldnt really be happening on a decent setup.

Quote from N1PPER :

Wow, attacked within minutes... Kinda expected it though.

Great atmosphere here.

Say a word wrong and forever be condemned to being seen as an idiot I guess.

I suppose I should have mentioned a couple of crucial (yet so obvious) factors. Countersteer is much more forgiving on an understeery setup, as the front wheels will not grip instantly, giving the driver some time to realise what is happening underneath him. It's a good place to start drifting also, as it is more forgiving and teaches the driver that you need to really throw it hard to initiate a drift.

Have you tried drifting a setup that is set to max oversteer?

no attacking here, i beleive only tristan had resorted to petty insults so far.

as far as your idea of a setup, i guess some of it comes down to personal preference, but know that your idea of a setup is not shared by many if any professional drifters.

understeer is generally something not preferential, you want to cancel it out as much as possible, if you are having a issue with countersteering try playing around with camber and toe adjustments, as well as damper adjustment if you're having trouble with the transition.

Quote from N1PPER :

I thought you would know that. :o

An understeery setup is less likely to "snap" on you mid-drift.

I won't bother explaining the reasons why, you are smart enough to know.

By "snap" I mean the front wheels suddenly gaining lots of grip mid-drift and throwing your car straight so fast you can't catch it.

sorry but you couldn't really be further from the truth, mid-drift the rear wheels are spinning, understeer from a locked diff is only caused when the tyres are still holding traction (entry).

also the "snap" you talk about is managed by driving properly and having a half decent setup, a proper setup will allow you to induce drift easily without having uncontrolable oversteer mid corner and exit.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

I think the problem many people in here, including myself, have with drifting is that it's basically a "sport" in which only show-offs and chavs participate. It's basically a gathering of peacocks (witht he amphasis on the latter part of the word) seeing who has the most colourful peacock's fan.

racing has just as many arrogant arseholes who are just in the sport to feed the ego, wait sorry what am i saying, racing has MUCH more people like that lol

drifting is much more relaxed, much more pure sport as it is atm (although it is going the way of racing), most people turn up to drift days are mates, there as much to have a chat as they are to get out on the track and have some fun, they exchange paint or destroy the other guys panel and 90% of the time they will have a laugh about it over beers the same night. everyone has an ego, and yes showmanship does play a big role in drift, just like any other sport, ever seen a victory burnout in a race car?

in some ways it is unfortunate that drift is getting bigger, money, ego and sponsors start to take priority, just like any sport that reaches this point i guess.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

but most of those participating in such drift events want people who prefer more serious motorsports to acknowledge drifting as a racing technique equal or even faster than "grip-racing" (possibly because the've watched Intial D to often...), and start getting very defensive about their opinion once others point out that it isn't.
Also, having had numreous threads like this,

lol no, just no.

people that drift are under no illusions that drifting is faster or is a better technique for racing, drift is about displaying car control and showmanship, the ironic part is it seems racers are the ones that seem to be under the illusion that what they are doing is anything more than going around a circuit quickly.

don't let the 14yo drifters on a video game influence your view on real drifters, have you ever been to a drift meet and met the drivers?

Quote from ArOuTiN :

I dont agree with you takumi.
Go try too drift a decent lap on fe gold rev or city tracks with good angle without spining out,you think drifting is really easy but it isnt.
And i dont say racing is easy.

Aro

once again, anyone can throw a car sideways and get a lot of angle, just like anyone can race around a track, what makes a good drifter are more technical elements that arent as visable to most people.

Quote from Shotglass :

oh like in your avatar?

yes, that is me "show" drifting. not sure i get your point :S

Quote from Shotglass :

he has with embarrasing results that i sadly havent fully recorded in mprs

lol i meant in real life, anyone can chuck a car sideways in a game, but id like to see him throw a real car at a wall at 150k's+ timing it correctly with the corner 100metre's+ ahead so not to go into a sandtrap sideways and roll the car and still show such disrespect to the sport.

this entry was at around 150ks:
http://www.speedshots.com.au/g ... 1/2008_da_r5_NJW_1870.jpg

Quote from Shotglass :

no thats driving like a twat down public roads while losing a lot of exit speed thanks to facing the wrong direction

besides those few times he overotated a bit, his car was pointing straight towards the exit on the exit, most of the time he grips up a bit before the exit anyway.

Quote from Takumi_lfs :

No, not really. Racing asks for more practice than drifting. You have to know your racing line braking points and always hit the apex. In drifting you don't have these kinds of points, its just slide the car through the corner.

wow you have no idea about competition drift do you?

if you ever sit down in a drivers briefing at drift you get told that one of the most important elements to drift is line, most of the time it is conventional apex's sometimes its things like wall riding and specialised clipping points.

drift is a lot more complex than a lot of people give it credit for, that is why i never participate in the drift competitions on here because they are an absolute joke judging wise, mostly because of the naive attitude like that.

depending on the competiton the area of the world, generally the judging is based on precision, meaning they are looking for line and proximity foremost while maintaining good angle, and obviously subsequently speed. smoke and noise are only really relavent to the crowd, and what motorsport isnt like that?

Last edited by nisskid, Tue 2 Dec 2008, 10:11.

Quote from Zen321 :

I am sorry, but in this video, Tsuchiya does mostly slow show drifts. Just look at his exit speeds in the first part (downhill), especially after the right hander 180° corners. This is clearly show, and I have to say that I've seen Tsuchiya do better (Sorry I saw that the video showed only the 2nd part - Uphill, but this is even slower...)

As opposed, this video shows us a better Tsuchiya : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v ... UxxpU&feature=related

Especially at the marks 2:15, ~2:30, 3:23, he does drifts with a very low slip angle (around 3-4°), which are clearly fast (just check the exit speed and the speed carried through the corner). However, at ~3:30, he slides by mistake, and we can clearly note a parallel between the exits you showed in your video (only 2 wheels are sliding : the rear ones).
.

as i said there was quite a few mistakes, but i think you missed the point, i was trying to demonstrate the origins of drift and how they originally took on quite a fast form, one of keiichi's biggest errors there was line which was killing his speed, but as far as car balance there were only a few errors there in his drift which caused dramatic speed loss.

Quote from tristancliffe :

And no one is saying that isn't the case, but only on very tight turns (tighter than any track in LFS - we're talking round a cone here). Then drifting can be quicker. That was sorted out ages ago in this thread. But then you started saying that it would work everywhere if it wasn't for tyre wear and drivers lacking skill or something.

er, no i didn't, all a long i've said the tighter corners are the ones where drift would be more beneficial, relative of course.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Racing achieves optimisation of a class of vehicle defined by a set of regulations to cover a distance in the sortest time. Drifting has classes, and you get a bloke to decide which slide was best. One produces the car/driver combination that covered the distance in the shortest time, the other produces an opinion as to which slide was better. You don't like it that I call drifters a moron, but that's my opinion. Judge B might not like your drift, it's his opinion. Which is right? Who knows! But a race result is (normally ) very easy to define.

Judges have guildelines, they judge based on those guidelines, clipping points, speed, angle, line, proximity etc etc, as a driver you know the guidelines. In case you didn't realise you have "judges" in racing who make decisions that define your outcome as well, that element is present in every sport, it needs to be there.

judged sports are not new, almost every race has a judged varient, that's life.

Quote from tristancliffe :

95% of people trying to drift - the people you might call drifters - can't. They're still drifters. If I play chess badly I'm still a chess player

same as racers, the amount of pathetic drivers out on track days is hilarious, i don't see your point. only difference is you can tell the shit drifters a lot easier, you can get away with racing a lot easier as long as you have a decently setup car.

Quote from pine-fin :

From what I read, I think you are trying to argue that drifting _can_ be faster than 'gripping' (= normal racing). You wrote some theory about it and then the debate began.

keyword there is can, like i said whether it is to overcome setup issues or road conditions etc.

obviously more refined racing is different.

a decent example of some fast drifting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHOkR8vrP94

unfortunately this style of drift is kind of dead these days, that was pretty much fresh from the race track after some drivers were gaining an advantage "drifting", it pretty much went only one way after this, but you can see it's potential in the hills. you can see some of the corners he should have drifted but didnt, and it ended in some pretty bad understeer which left him with poor corner speed. still a few times he screwed up the drift which left him with less speed, but that's all in the inconsistancies of drift.

Quote from pine-fin :

yes, but its still you against everyone elses concept of racing theory.

no, it's everyone against what everyone has formed in their head as my argument.

let me ask you, what do you think my argument is here?

Quote from pine-fin :

I am confused. You have been replying to this thread and attacking everyone and trying to block everyones 'facts' by all means necessary.
Then you can't produce any evidence of your 'theory', but only replying 'its only a theory'.

Had fun reading this thread

not many people have provided facts, the only posts slightly resembling intelligent conversation are the one's coming from tristan, even then he seems to be reading much more into statement then is actually there, not to mention his opinion is blocked by an extremely arrogant and ignorant view towards drifting.

Quote from tristancliffe :

So why did your video show F&F style drifting?[/i]

as someone who doesn't understand drift, i don't expect you to understand the difference.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Who said it has to cure world hunger.

tell me, what does racing achieve that drift doesn't? apart from turning a normally decent person into an arogant arsehole.

Quote from tristancliffe :

But it still looks silly

you're opinion, an opinion not held by most decent racers, probably a lot of racers you look up to.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Certainly not. For the same reason the 95% of drifters can't do it. But rather than speaking using numbers, failing to use punctuation and pretending that it's actually a quick way to drive I went back to racing.

95% of drifters can't? then wouldnt that make them, not drifters?

once again, my statement was only that it CAN be faster, not that it is faster in most instances or anything like that.

like i said, drifting is extremely broad, you wanna talk competition drifting, well that's a different story, most drift competition regs restrict FWD and AWD cars.

Quote from tristancliffe :

Partly your fault for writing so badly though, and your insistence on using terms like gripping and drifting to describe things that nobody really understands.

if you can't read this you should have another crack at school.

Drifting can be considered a technique or an even something you use to describe an action. Drifting is also a sport.

Unfortunately these days you can't mention the word drift without conjuring up scenes from F&F Tokyo Drift in people's heads, but what I’m actually talking about is the motion of a car "drifting", nothing to do with the developed sport.

Quote from tristancliffe :

YDrifting - far too much oversteer, in the range of 10°-50°. Not fast, not used competitively on hard surfaces in any form of motorsport.
Racing - optimising the use of the tyres by keeping slip angles, load transfer and chassis movement to the level that optimises lateral or longidinal forces. This is fast, controlled and much harder that drifting to do well. As used in fixed surface motorsport with very little alteration for the last 100 years and is what Messers Fangio, Clark, Villeneuve, Bellof and Schumacher did.

Racing does NOT refer to a technique, you can race using multiple techniques, how effective they are is regardless in this sense.

Quote from tristancliffe :

It's slow, hard on cars and doesn't achieve anything

what's the weather like up there on your high horse? i didnt realise driving around and around a circuit as fast as you can cures world hunger.

It acheives as much as racing does, it's fun and it entertains, as soon as you get any other delusions about what you're doing it's time to quit. All decent racers appreciate this, it seems to only be the young rookies and ones that spend all there time on a computer game that fail to comprehend this.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I have tried it. It reinforced my ideas. Some of the very skilled drifters are very very talented, but the vast majority are morons.

more info on this, let me guess you mastered it straight away?