Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

nonetheless it is consequence of how quickly the scientific community changes it's mind on subject X.

except it isnt

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Maybe I should just pull out the Donald Rumsfeld "knowns vs unknowns" soliloquy it seems fitting here.

the what?
also similar as with racer if rumsfeld is your base you have none

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While he was getting prayed for he said he felt a warm sensation in his heel, and all I know is he could not really walk without wincing in pain, and he left pain free. I guess that's just a strange coincidence though.

prayer in medicine has been studied and all scientific studies into the subject have found that prayer has **** all effect on healing

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exactly my point, there's also plenty of intelligent folk without post secondary education. I do regret not having some sometimes, but I've done just fine for myself without it as well.

then again you do show that you lack a significant bit of understanding about the history of the book you trust so much whcih is evidence of a lack of education on the subject

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Jesus had the goal of reconciling the world to God, period.

no jesus had the goal of reforming judaism to what he believed was the right way
theres plenty of scholars who agree on that

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Yes, "the book" states that, the Jews were not able to "do it themselves" so they used fear to get Pilate to do it. I didn't mean to say the Jews literally did it, but rather than they were responsible for it, which is true.

again read up on it theres plenty of scholars who have researched this and they agree on that those passages have no historical accuracy

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They tried on numerous occasions and he'd always manage to escape. Read the books if you're going to talk about them.

read above line

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Oh I bet, and I bet there's never an exception to that, and I bet science is the only branch of humanity immune to ... humans.

no but masses of humans and competitiveness between them is a good way of making sure mistakes get pointed out quickly

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edit: thanks Racer for the post

if racer is you basis you have no basis

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great, but you can't totally separate them because one comes from the other. The information comes from somewhere.

yes but fox news misrepresenting and other newschannels badly representing scientific findings or advertising people miscontruing the message to fit theirs cannot be the standard for how you measure scientific results

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how in the world does it not???

because it has zero relevance to either science or our life
everything that has any relevance to our life must be observable otherwise it wouldnt have any effect on our lifes and thus no relevance
our limit of observability has no relevance to the discussion at hand since the question is how the universe came to be and that is very much observable and obviously relevant to our life as well

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I think believe God created the universe is a lot less dangerous than say... flying planes into buildings and otherwise killing people

literal belief in everything the bible says is very much dangerous to many people and im fairly certain things doctrine forbidding the use of condoms and american literal bible extremists influencing african politics to make homosexuality punishable by death has already killed a lot more people than planes being crashed into buildings ever will

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RIGHT - you said it - as far as WE are concerned. But there is implication and shortsightedness in that statement, because again, it implies that we have the capacity observe "everything". Nothing wrong with trying to learn, but when talking about "God" for example, if we could understand God on an intellectual level He wouldn't be much of a God in my estimation.

we have the capacity to observe everything that has an influence of us
if a god still acts in this universe today the effect of those acts must be observable

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I do like how you brushed off the my point about guys with PhDs being Christians.

theres a huge difference between the fairly large number of scientists who are christians that believe in a god but not a literal interpretation of the bible (which btw is pretty much unavoidable if you are a scientist since its impossible to avoid the facts of how the bible was written rewritten changed etc) and the small number of religious extremists who believe the bible word for word is to be udnerstood literally which make no mistake is a very small number of nutjobs
also havign a phd doesnt exclude you from being an idiot i work with people with degrees who are idiots every day

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Jesus hated religion

uhm no jesus had the goal of bringing the jewish religion back on the path he believed to be correct and similarly to luther it didnt quite go that way

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heck the whole reason they crucified Him was because He called them out and started to erode their power of the people!

you are aware that the whole jews killed jesus was retconned into the bible by evangelists who were born well after jesus had died and were working from several sources?
jesus was killed by the romans as evident by the way he died
if the jews had wanted to kill him they would have been perfectly capable of doing so themself

a very large amount of the things you think you know about the life of jesus were retconned and are impossible to corroborate with the use of other sources

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Nonetheless, at the risk of sounding like Racer X_NZ (which I probably will at various points if I respond to all of you), those in higher places often... "influence" said publications, or fund them in the first place expecting a certain conclusion. Don't pretend this doesn't happen, it's just a more subtle form of advertising with a different audience sometimes.

you are aware that bad science gets pointed out and corrected very quickly or doesnt make it through the review process in the first place?

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The issue I have is that every new "discovery" is treated in culture like it's the new concrete truth. Perhaps not within the scientific community itself, but the "facts" communicated to us lowly uneducated imbeciles are purported to be all but infallible. Diets change, new products are generated to profiteer off of every amazing new discovery, and round and round we go.

im sorry i thought we were talking about actual science here not some badly done reports on science and how advertising mangles scientific results?

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Ok - well if you read what I said instead of constructing condescending retorts, you'd note that if I meant what you're saying that I'd have directly contradicted myself - I was referring to the attitude of the public at large towards every released scientific "fact". Again sorry for not being clear I was in a hurry.

i dont give 2 shits about how wrong joe average is about scientific discoveries this issue is about the truth and about what truth we are teaching comming generations not about what advertised rubbish about this and that joghurt someone buys

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Again I stated previously that I'd only watched snippets of the video.

then maybe you shouldnt comment on it
especially if youre already expecting to be offended by the backlash resulting from poor understanding and not really knowing what the subject of this thread is

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Fair. But you have to keep in mind that we really have no idea what our limitations really are. What if we have the capacity as beings to observe is relatively nothing more than grain of sand on a beach? That is to say; if somehow, someday, humanity reached some theoretical limit (which must exist unless our capacity to discover is infinite - I don't think so), it could very well be so small compared to what "is". Aaaand we'd still likely act like the know-it-alls of the universe.

and how exactly does this relate to the question at hand?

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Fixed.

no not fixed... mangled
catholics are by far the largest denomination in christianity and if you add up all the other churches (the middle numbers not the xtremes of the ranges given there) you still end up with less than the number of catholics for which indeed the vatican is the only athority
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L ... ions_by_number_of_members
creationists are a fringe group that more or less exclusively exists in north america and makes up about half of the people there so at worst around 200 million an absolute nothing compared the the large majority of christians that isnt impervious to reason

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Yes, I do. The Vatican is know more for it's internal crime and corruption, and Catholicism is not, on a very very basic level, Christianity in practice. I'm not saying that a Catholic individual cannot be a Christian but they're not necessarily synonymous with each other, but that takes some basic Biblical knowledge to understand.

im pretty sure that there is 1.2 billion people in the world (give or take 1/6 of everyone in the world) that completely disagree with you there

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Extremism is dangerous.

exactly my point about creationism

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Christians should be extreme in their love for others, nothing more.

i suppose that explains 56m 16s in the video then?

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re: 1, yes it is a massive assumption if you read the words he wrote and what I responded to. He literally said that "if it exists, we can discover it". He did not say "if I can observe it I can discover it". Maybe you interpreted it that way, but that not what he said - read what he said, and how I responded again.

no what he said was "if it doesnt have any observable effect then it might as well not exist"
which is absolutely true because anything that may exist but has no observable effect on the universe behaves no different than something that doesnt exist as far as we as part of the universe are concerned

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Shot, if science was as conclusive as you say, and scientific education is the end all be all to disprove what you so vehemently seem to desire to disprove, there wouldn't be guys with PhDs that believe what I do, but there's plenty of them. I have a feeling that you haven't read their books though.

again there is a very small number of extemists that believe what you do
also im fairly none of their believes have ever been published in any of the respectable journals since as unscientific as they are they would never make it past peer review
if any of them ever writes a book that is based on things published in reviewed papers and real science instead of magic handwaving and here be dragons i might read them

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Firstly, the New Testament completely fulfills the Old Testament and a Christian who attempts to follow "the law" has missed the point of the NT completely. These people are often legalistic and judgmental.

for someone who claims to know the bible better than the pope you have a bit of a weird grasp on what it says:
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

but I can "think".

i wasnt doubting that you could i was doubting that you do often enough and have done so in the past

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Besides which, how many great "discoveries" are shrouded in monetary greed and fictional facts? Every medical journal that arises seems to contradict the last - "cholesterol is BAAAD" - 2 years later "wait... NO, actually some is good"... 2 years later "WAIT NO - it depends on that ratio of the bad and good! really! we have it sorted now!". Confidence inspiring.

1) see thats exactly what i mean by a lack of education you clearly havent got the faintest idea how much a researcher makes (hint: its pocket change compared to how much someone with the intellect necessary to research and write articles good enough to get in journals could easly make)
2) yes thats very confidence inspiring sicne it shows sciences fundamental willingness to accept having been wrong in the face of new evidence; which is vastly superior to clinging to a very limited view and understanding of the world that a couple of desert nomads had 3000 years ago

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We're so shallow into the scientific waters that I have little confidence in the concrete absolutism of what we call "science"

again lack of education
science is the antithesis to absolutism
probably pretty much everything science knew in the days of lets say darwin and wallace has been revised amended refined or flat out bulldozed over
you might want to look into how science actually works and make take a look at a boock on scientific history to see it in action

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despite the fact that everyone acts like humans have discovered everything there is to know (displayed in the attitude that what we know couldn't have been created)

no one in science can currently prove right now that we havent been created and if youd listened to the video you would have heard nye mention so a couple of times
we can prove however that creation didnt happen the way a couple of desert dwellers envisioned it 3000 years ago
and except for a small number of fringe christian extremists mostly in north america the christian world agrees that genesis is about who created the world and not the actual process of how it happened chonologically
now the who our current understanding of science cant prove or disprove since if we take the classical model of the big bang (everything including space-time itself started at the big bang) then that puts a obervational horizon in our way that we cant cross ( i still think the unmoved mover model of creation is a god of the gaps situation though)

personally i think we should be able to prove or disprove a god that has any relevance in todays world since if said god has direct influence on the universe and does influence the universe we should be able to test and observe that influence

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"discover all that there is to discover"

no we think we can discover all that we can observe

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And who cares about the Vatican?

how about the majority of christians alive right now?

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It simply personifies everything you think you know about Christianity, when in fact in has absolutely nothing to do with it; which is why you use it as an example.

so the central institution of the largest congregation of christians has nothing to do with christianity? do you even listen to yourself?

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Catholicism has little to do with simple, Biblical Christianity but that's a whole different ball of conversations.

i assume what you call biblical christianity is the extremist fringe faiths of christians that left europe some centuries ago?

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

That - dear reader - is a MASSIVE assumption!

1) no "if i can observe it i can discover it" is not a massive assumption
2) you like to hark on (wrongly) about the assumptions made in science but seem to be unwilling to question the even more massive assumption that a book written by people with a very limited knowledge of even just earth
a) has any relevance today
b) is the literal word of god

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The main issue here is that we give ourselves way too much credit.

again have you even looked at the bible with the same critical eye?

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My only point here is to perhaps, get someone to try to see things from a slightly different point of view.

again badly educated of how science works
thats what happens in science every day in fact you even critizised science for it in the previous post (which makes this statement even more baffling and ridiculous)

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

...

have you tried education on top of a high iq? becuase with actual knowledge of the world theres no way to recocile the idea of creationism or a christian god for that matter with your knowledge

also i reckon that north america must have a really terrible translation of the bible pretty much no one in the world believes in creationism
even the bloody vatican of all places sides with science on the matter of "how"

if you repeat a random experiment countably infinite times every possible outcome of it will happen countably infinite times

Recent measurements (c. 2001) by a number of ground-based and balloon-based experiments, including MAT/TOCO, Boomerang, Maxima, and DASI, have shown that the brightest spots are about 1 degree across. Thus the universe was known to be flat to within about 15% accuracy prior to the WMAP results. WMAP has confirmed this result with very high accuracy and precision. We now know (as of 2013) that the universe is flat with only a 0.4% margin of error. This suggests that the Universe is infinite in extent; however, since the Universe has a finite age, we can only observe a finite volume of the Universe. All we can truly conclude is that the Universe is much larger than the volume we can directly observe.

damnit got my infinities mixed up

Last edited by Shotglass, Thu, 6 Feb 2014 22:11.

Quote from The Moose :

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/201 ... make-a-joke-of-ourselves/

yeah shame on ken ham... making a fool out of christians is pat robertsons job
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson

as an actual engineer i still find the term software enginner laughable
thank god it doesnt exist in german

what was wrong with the jump? something similar to this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ8X2iD2wfM&t=2m06s

Quote from troy :

Take this for example, I get hit from behind and then scoop the car in front of me up my nose, I'm no expert but that looks wrong to me. http://www.hitbox.tv/video/94244

hard to tell without seeing it from the side
retards have managed to do that while trying to park their cars and from the video it looks a bit like you wedged the car in front of you between your car and the car in front of him
so with that the car had nowhere to go but crumple or go up and from the look of the cars next to you it seems like the front and rear of the cars is shaped in a way that could facilitate such a thing

Quote from sinbad :

I have an HD7770 1GB, so where, in your opinions, would the range of cards actually worth upgrading to begin? (What's the minimum spend, realistically, for it to be worthwhile?)

generally speaking ~200€ is the sweet spot on the price/performance ratio for graphics cards these days

eg these
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1079?vs=1043
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1079?vs=1041
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1079?vs=1038
http://www.anandtech.com/bench/product/1079?vs=1037

all of which will be a significant upgrade

Quote from Whiskey :

I'm pretty sure if they can run at 144Hz they can slow down to 120, 100, 75 and 60Hz, just like any other monitor do.

highly unlikely that they can actually operate their panel at 100hz
also all 120+hz screens except for one excessively expensive eizo are tn rubbish

which wont help one bit for eliminating update rate interferences on a sim that runs its physics at 100hz

unfortunately no monitor these days suppots 100hz output
oh the good old crt days

- you dont hit any apex
- you dont use all the road
- your lines and thus your speed through both the chicane and the uphill left are completely off the mark and thus you lose a ton of time on the straights

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

I always wondered if this was due to a load sensitivity issue (that showed it's head in other instances).

might be
lfs always allowed me to tweak the cars balance through the arb settings more than any other sim
although that might just be down to the fact that lfs offers a very wide range of arb settings (then again all other sims use completely meaningless numbers for the arb setup so who the **** knows how wide the actual setup range is there)

its a mid engined car with a road ie idiot proof setup
they understerr a lot

Quote from Becky Rose :

But Wing Commander was epic. I gather Chris Roberts is finally getting around to writing a new space shooter, the video I saw of it looked very spectacular.

still one of the best games ever (as evidenced by my handle)
not particularly interested in the mmo part of the new roberts game but the sengle player part looks amazing

Quote from Töki (HUN) :

I hate tailgaters. Rear fog light is quite effective though, they feck off quickly.

i just brake until i see my centre brake light reflect in the rear wing and press the gas a little more to maintain speed

has d3d9 had any effect on framerates?

im rpetty sure the 1m has a suspension made out of cheese
it rolls into corner more than my moms bloody punto
worst car ive ever driver in a sim (and yes that includes the raceabout)

i think i like the new tyres the cars feel a lot more controllable and predictable now
although i think theyre a good bit slower (at least the zonda appears to be)

Quote from sinbad :

Does nobody else find that stepped drop off of aligning forces if you turn the wheel two degrees past optimum front end grip just weird feeling? To me it feels like you're suddenly on a low grip surface, it's too much.

I think they've turned that effect up with this version.

yeah same here it feels quite off in that regard

does the new tyre physics change the weird reluctance that the cars have to get back in line after overtseering?

theres also the official lfs grumpy cat account https://twitter.com/scawen1/status/421697548256956416

Quote from kars19 :

plus a complete rework of our tyre model (yikes!)... it's subtle, nothing too drastic, but we think you'll like it even more.

upcomming ac release announcements:
- scirocco
- rockingham
- update delayed indefinitely