42. Obviously.

iRacing is exceptional. Right now it's 12 bucks month to month. 99 bucks for a year. You get a few cars and tracks with your subscription, but they're nothing to write home about. Cars are 15 bucks a piece and some suck. The corvette and dallara stink outright. Tracks are 15 - 25 bucks a piece depending on how hard they were to build.

Except for a few cars that I wish I could return, I am quite happy with the considerable amount of money I've spent on iRacing. The tracks are where it really shines. The tracks are simply amazing.

That being said. The physics are wonky. It just doesn't feel right. But they are fairly easy to get used to, and in the end it's all about racing. Since we are all driving the same wonky physics it's fair racing. And racing is racing.

You will notice some other differences right away:

• Races are on a schedule. You have to wait for the race. I had a lot of fun in LFS last night running race after race after race. Wow... you DO NOT get that in iRacing.
  
• The lap validity checker is on at all times. In order to advance, not only do you have to race and score points, but you have to be clean. Putting wheels off and getting in incidents with other cars will cost you your license level if they are excessive.
  
• The perspective is weird. Like driving through a fish eye lens or something. This makes it so you can't tell where you are on the track. Racing in traffic is not like LFS or real life. But, once again, everybody is in the same boat and you get used to it.
  
• You can only play it online. If your internet goes out you can't even practice.
  

12 bucks for one month and you can only race the stuff you get for free anyway. At least until you build up your license level. Check it out. It's worth the look.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Fri, 15 Oct 2010 05:50.

For almost two years I've been driving iRacing exclusively.

Due to a glitch in my banking system I have accidentally removed myself from iRacing for a few weeks.

Back at Blackwood. Aston. Fern Bay. ...

In the FO8. FOX. ....

Uh....

This sim stomps all over iRacing. The physics, specifically the tires, are sooooo much more realistic. The only time you get understeer in iRacing is when you lock the tires. The new LFS patch is going to blow away all comers.

Also, for whatever reason, it is a lot easier to race in LFS. We can really get in close and dice. I just know where all the other cars are. In iRacing I always have doubt whether my fellow drivers and I will get away with being anywhere near each other. In this sim you really know where you are on the track. I feel I can drive inch perfect here. Or... at least know which inch I am driving on. In iRacing it's more like "2 foot perfect".

Anyway. Yeah. LFS kicks fanny.

I stick with iRacing for three reasons only. Championship goals. Enforced clean driving. And it does have some amount of immediacy, excitement that LFS does not...

That being said, it's refreshing to be back at Blackwood. This sim is simply better. The best I've played.

Hmmm... I don't think I've posted anything in this thread.

Quote from R.Kolz :

I wish to believe you on this matter, but honestly..

I very much doubt it. Send us some proof.

Wow. I really hope you are not a software developer. Or if you are, it would explain a lot of things about Mac computers.

The reason I do all those tweaks is because on any given day my work may require up to 40 audio streams at 96khz sample rate at 24 bit depth resolution all playing back simultaneously. Along with that bandwidth from my drives I will also be using 50 plug ins, 16 or 24 virtual tracks by way of mix busses, 2 or 3 synthesizers and a buttload of automation of all those things. Those tweaks come from a well reputed source that has been helping people in my industry for years. It's real help for people that use computers the way I do.

That is neither here nor there to you. But it may well be why LFS is acting weird on my machine. In which case it may be a problem no one else has.

It also may be a problem the devs couldn't have expected but their awareness of it might lead them to discover something they would rather not be in their code.

I have no idea why I am explaining this to you.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Sat, 2 May 2009 21:25. Reason : PS I am not using these tweaks to get more out of the sim and I wouldn't recommend many of them either for typical PC use.

OK. I forgot a couple of things. Someone PM'd me demanding a replay so my reply is here because it's pertinent.

1. No replay. I really wish I had been aware enough to record one. But I wasn't because of point 3. If I have time this weekend I will try to recreate point 4.

2. It's not a persistent problem. It happens once, then goes away for the life of the machine.

3. It has only happened after a fresh OS install. I've only seen this three or four times over six years or so.

4. It might only happen when I am copying an LFS folder intact from another drive.

5. I am using the same version of windows XP home edition. I'm looking at the receipt but it's so old all the information has faded off it. The disk says, "includes service pack 2, version 2002, 0304 part no. x10-52220". I do all the windows updates for service pack 2 before installing any software. I do not install SP3.

I'll be happy to drag the folder and start it from another drive tomorrow. Hopefully it will do the thing and I can record replays. I will not, or I hope I will not be installing a fresh OS until 7 Full is released.

I promise, I am not making this up. What would be the point?

I just did a quick search in the forum and found no mention of this. It's quite weird. When it first happened years ago I figured I simply had an odd hardware configuration. It has now happened on the third computer in a row. That is why I'm posting it now. Please forgive me if this is well known.

(There is a point to this story.) I got iRacing. Spent two weeks in. Went back to LFS. Took a long time to get up to speed because there is so much more traction in LFS. I kept pushing and pushing and there seemed to be no limit. A matter of perception, yeah? Anyway, found the limit, ran with some friends, went back to iRacing for about a month. The point to this story is the perception of grip.

I was about to name this thread "traction bug" then I realized no one would read it. It is, also, in fact, about the 'sound lag' option.

My desktop mobo blew in October, wouldn't play 3D games, but ran my work software until April when it finally gave out. I had been racing LFS and iRacing on the laptop. Ran well. Not out of the ordinary. I do remember running on the blown desktop, same experience. Good laptop. So... finally bought a new computer. Installed all my software and when I went in to LFS - no grip. When I say no grip, I mean it was like driving on packed snow. Not quite ice, but early morning after 6" of fresh and 100 cars up the road before you, but still before removal has made it through.

I tried different cars on different tracks, loaded different setups, tweaked setups, and the things were so unruly I couldn't believe it. It was only a few weeks ago they had gobs and gobs of grip. I remember it very distinctly and my sets are designed to be safer, rather than quicker.

Naturally I assumed I must have clicked the wrong thing when cranking up my graphics. (BTW, LFS is gorgeous with the graphics turned up high!) So I started checking my options. I finally get down to the 'Misc' page and "ding-dong!" a light goes on. All of the sudden I remembered that I had had and cured this problem before. I stopped where I was and put the car on track. Yep, sliding like it was on ice. Went back to options, clicked 'Sound Lag' down to 0.09 then back up to 0.10 where it was to begin with and went back out on the track. Bingo. I'm driving LFS again. Perfect grip.

So... I remember doing this on at least three destops. I don't think I did it on the lappy. My computers have all been AMD based, two on MSI and this one on nForce. The lappy is an HP AMD Turion X2. I do run different settings than most to encourage my software and hardware to work. I always run with either professional or prosumer audio cards, and always disable the motherboard audio card.

(Loosely based on memory.)

AMD Athlon. Can't remember the chip. Ran at 1.4
MSI K7T266 Pro
1 gig ram
M-Audio Quatro
TSW2 Sport
XP

AMD Athlon 64 3800+
MSI K9MM-V
2 gig DDR2
460v PSU
Radeon 9600 XT 128
M-Audio Firewire 1814
TSW2 Sport
XP SP2

AMD Phenom X4 9500
XFX nForce 750a SLI
4 gig OCZ SLI PC6400 DDR2
650v PSU
nVidia GeForce 9800 GT 512
RME Fireface 800 (sound card)
Momo
XP SP2 (SP 2 for the audio soft/hardware. Finicky stuff.)

Also, this is what I do to the OS every time:

Tip Description More 1. Processor scheduling should be set to background services and not Programs.
Start > Settings > Control Panel > System > Advanced > Performance Settings > Advanced Tab > Background Services

2. Visual effects should be set to a minimum.
Start > Settings > Control Panel > System > Advanced > Performance Settings > Visual Effects Tab > Adjust for best performance
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=2)" target="_blank">
3. Switch Off Desktop Background Image
Right Click Desktop > Properties > Desktop Tab > Background None
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=3)" target="_blank">
4. Disable Screen Saver
Right Click Desktop > Properties > Screen Saver > None
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=4)" target="_blank">
5. Disable Fast User Switching
Start > Settings > Control Panel > User Accounts > Change the way users log on or off > Untick Use Fast User Switching
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=5)" target="_blank">
6. Switch Off Power Schemes
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Power Options > Always On > Turn off monitor and turn off hard discs to Never
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=6)" target="_blank">
7. Switch Off Hibernation
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Power Options > Hibernate > Untick Hibernation
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=7)" target="_blank">
8. Disable System Sounds
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Sounds and Audio Devices > Sounds Tab > Sound Scheme to None.
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=8)" target="_blank">
9. Do Not Map Through Soundcard
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Sounds and Audio Devices > Hardware Tab > (highlight your soundcard from the list) > Properties > Audio Devices > (highlight your soundcard from the list) > Properties, and check the "Do not map through this device" checkbox.
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=9)" target="_blank">
10. Disable System Restore
Start > Settings > Control Panel> System > System Restore Tab. Tick the "Turn off System Restore on all Drives"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=10)" target="_blank">
11. Disable Automatic Updates
Switch off Automatic Updates by going to Control Panel, System, Automatic Updates and ticking the box labelled "Turn off automatic updating. I want to update my computer manually.".
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=11)" target="_blank">
12. Startup and Recovery Options
Right click My Computer and click on Properties > Advanced > Start Up & Recovery Settings and uncheck "Automatically Restart".
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=12)" target="_blank">
13. Disable Error Reporting
Start > Settings > Control Panel > System > Advanced TAB > Error Reporting > Click the Disable Error Reporting box (Tick the "But Notify Me When Critical Errors Occur" if you prefer)
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=13)" target="_blank">
14. Disable Remote Assistance
Start > Settings > Control Panel > System > Remote > Untick "Allow Remote Assistance Invitations to be sent from this computer"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=14)" target="_blank">
15. Fixed Swap File (Virtual Memory)
Select the Advanced tab of the Systems applet and then select the Performance settings button. Then select the Advanced page. In here it is possible to customise the Virtual Memory. For custom size, this is often recommended to be 1.5 to 2 times the amount of your total RAM for both initial and maximum size. Set this to a fixed minimum and maximum value according to your existing RAM
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=15)" target="_blank">
16. Speed Up Menus
You can use this tip to speed up the Start Menu in Windows XP. You can customize the speed of the Start Menu by editing a Registry Key. Click Start, and then click Run. Type Regedit in the box, and then click OK. Expand the menu in the left panel and select the HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Control Panel\Desktop folder. Scroll down in the right panel and double click on the MenuShowDelay file. In the Value Data box, change to default value for the menu speed from 400 to a lesser number, such as 1. Click OK.
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=16)" target="_blank">
17. Disable Offline Files
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Folder Options > Offline Files > Untick "Enable Offline Files"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=17)" target="_blank">
18. Disable Remote Desktop
Start > Settings > Control Panel > System > Remote > Untick "Allow users to connect remotely to this computer"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=18)" target="_blank">
19. Disable Internet Synchronise Time
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Date and Time > Internet Time > Untick "Automatically synchronize with an internet time server"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=19)" target="_blank">
20. Disable Hide Inactive Icons
Start > Settings > Taskbar and Start Menu > Taskbar TAB > Uncheck "Hide Inactive Icons"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=20)" target="_blank">
21. Disable Automatic Desktop Cleanup Wizard
Start > Settings > Control Panel > Display > Desktop > Customise Desktop > Untick "Run Desktop Cleanup Wizard every 60 days"
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=21)" target="_blank">
22. Disable NTFS Last Access Time Logging (NTFS Only)
Start > Run > regedit > HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE > SYSTEM > CURRENTCONTROLSET > CONTROL > FILESYSTEM Add a new DWORD value - "NtfsDisableLastAccessUpdate" (without quotes) and set the value to 1. Then reboot to make changes effective
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=22)" target="_blank">
23. Disable Notification Area Balloon Tips
Click Start , click Run , type regedit , and then press ENTER. HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Microsoft\Windows\ CurrentVersion\Explorer\Advanced Right-click the right pane, create a new DWORD value, and then name it EnableBalloonTips . Double-click this new entry, and then give it a hexadecimal value of 0 . Quit Registry Editor. Log off Windows, and then log back on.
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=23)" target="_blank">
24. Disable CDROM Autoplay
One of the very important (and well documented) tweaks in Windows 98SE, was to disable CDROM autoplay (auto insert notification). Disabling CDROM autoplay no longer offers a significant performance benefit in Windows XP, and therefore you do not need to disable it. Just don't insert a CD during a crucial recording.
However, if you really want to disable it then here a few different methods.
Method 1
Start > Run > Regedit
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\System\CurrentControlSet\Services\Cdrom
Set autorun to 0.
Method 2
Open My Computer Right Click on each CDROM and choose Properties Click on the Auto Play tab In the drop down box you can choose the Action for each choice shown in the drop down box
Method 3
Go to Start->Run->gpedit.msc Computer Config -> Administrative Template -> System Double click Turn off Autoplay Enable it.
opUpBig(tip_detail.php?tip_number=24)" target="_blank">
25. Disable Disc Indexing
Text below taken from XP help.
Indexing Service is a service that extracts the information from a set of documents and organizes it in a way that makes it quick and easy to access that information through the Windows XP Search function, the Indexing Service query form, or a Web browser.
This information can include text from within a document, (its contents), and the characteristics and parameters of the document, (its properties), such as the author's name. Once the index is created, you can search, or query the index for documents that contain key words, phrases, or properties.

Sorry about the formatting, easier that way.

If this concerns you in any way I can provide exact details.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Fixed the first part for you

Didja read the post directly above the one I'm quoting?

I will go out and 'race' on a track I have not mastered. I those cases I am on track but not really attacking, simply getting used to the line and the car. *

I know I'm ready to race once I have explored every inside, outside, and mid track line for braking markers, turn markers, throttle markers, and exit lines in every corner. Or at least most corners. Really use your peripheral. Don't rely solely on the track in front of you. Take in multiple cues for each track position; trees, ads on walls, curb beginnings and endings, worn grass, crowns in the road, and listen to your engine. Know what too fast is on a given line in a given gear by how high you are revving.

What that means is know the track. If you choose to explore a different line or are forced off your line while dicing, you have the necessary experience to design a good strategy that will loose the least amount of speed in a given corner or section. Don't change your view too much. Find something that works and stick with it. This way your markers are more accurate, predictable.

If I am following someone closely it means a few things. 1) I've raced them before on this track or been behind them long enough that I know their style and speed. I can pretty much drive the same lap. 2) I'm now investigating where they are slower or quicker. 3) I am developing a strategy for where I will surprise them with 'the big move'. 4) I am not going to pass.

In this situation, the one I believe you are referring to, knowing the the line, markers, and speeds is critically important. There is no guessing where the brake marker is or waiting to see when the driver in front brakes. It's all about making well prepared decisions based on the knowledge gained by lots of practice.

That being said, don't feel so alone. We all experience the same thing from time to time. No matter how well we are prepared.


* Which BTW, is my standard mode. I'm not the most aggressive or skilled driver in the pack.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:25.

Priceless. Straight to the iTunes folder.

PS I mix records for a living. That was excellently produced.

Quote from SamH :

If I may interject on the topic of the CTRA...

Wow. Sam. That is excellent news. I'm like 200 points from International B. I still have my last races fresh in memory. The things I learned. Of course it brings me to another thought.

Please forgive me if I cross any uncomfortable political boundaries, but I have not read a lot on the subject of the CTRA.

I did read a quick description of B. Rose's new system. Blue or something? Anyway. The ideas were absolutely stunning. Elegant. Which is exactly what I have thought about the CTRA. Two of my friends bought S2 and wheels because I introduced them to CTRA in my living room. The web site was instantly intriguing. Everyone desires affirmation in this gigantic world. (People walk in, see the wheel, see that no one they know can see them playing with computer toys, and they won't take no for an answer.)

These are only two of countless other systems that are allowed in LFS. By design, the race design is left up to the community. I can't imagine the work that goes into designing and maintaining systems like this. The devs have enough to do making believable and effective racing software. The decision to leave this portion of the experience in the hands of the users is brilliant. Very open minded. Giving us exactly what we want because when we see the need, we build it. (I say we, meaning you.)

Is it possible that K&C are simply trying to bite off too much?

BTW I am so going to hulu to watch Hollyoaks. (OK. That was a bad idea... sorry.)

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Tue, 21 Apr 2009 06:41.

Quote from ANAMENOONEHAD :

I DISagree about its take a g25 minimum im racing with a DFP the old one... has 900 degrees but it turns slow. It doesnt tkae much to go fast in iracing doesnt take tons of pratice actually i got faster quicker in iracing then lfs. for example laguna in the rookie soltice i hit a 148 my second night i never have driven on that track b4 and 148 in the rookie base set aint shabby...took me forever and a day to hit 133 in the xrg bl1 definitely not 2 nights. On LIme ROck Park my first night i hit a low 104. next day a 103.7 in the rookies solitce base set{i have never driven a lap on this track b4 or heard of it].

People are having less trouble with the DFP. Something to do with the Logitech drivers for the G25 and Kaemmers childish controller implementation/prioritization/philosophy.

You, my friend, are bloody quick.

Get back in there.

Quote from RatzMilk :

I wish LFS had the centering quality of he steering especially the way the the steering wants to center itself the faster you go and the higher the resistance is at speed to turning the wheel compared to low speed.

That is quite nice and I never really understood the effect of caster until I felt this. Now I can go into LFS and make (semi)intelligent caster adjustments based solely on how the car is acting.

Quote from RatzMilk :

I wish both LFS and iRacing had better net code...

I haven't had problems with LFS netcode if it's low enough to keep cars from jumping. iRacing netcode blows. They claim to be working on it. Also, word on the forum is they dropped the Arkami idea.

Quote from RatzMilk :

I very much like the license system in iRacing. It very harshly punishes rough and overly aggesive racing.

The on track attitude is the finest attribute of iRacing IMO. Like DSR or CTRA or LOTA etc... Really extraordinary.

Quote from RatzMilk :

Even if it means paying the cost of LFS as a yearly subscription. It would still be very cheap and the extra money could pay for heaps more development. Unlike iRacing, as it impoves, they'll get more subscribers and thus, more money to keep hiring more developers to improve it even more which will attract more subscribers...etc.

Think about it, seriously. S1 = 20 bucks. S2 = 20 bucks. For almost 7 years I've been having the time of my life for 40 bucks. I think on the average I have spent more than that per year on other 'sims' like Superbike, GP4, Nascar Racing, STCC, RBR... I don't play any of them save for GP4, and I only do rain races in that. (The lack of online makes it really not fun at all.) I would gladly pay Scawen, Victor, and Eric $20 a year for this product. Are you kidding me? It's nothing, not for anyone who can afford a computer that will run a sim, internet connection, and a wheel. It's not a lot to ask. Think about how much it costs the average Schmoe to go skiing 10 times a year. And LFS would stomp all over iRacing. And here's why:

This last week I failed to find a race with sufficient entry numbers in advanced Solstice. That means no points for that race in the series. The racing is scheduled by iRacing and sometimes, actually a lot of times, there simply is no one racing when I have the time to race. In the Mazda (think FOX, GREAT!) I just squeaked a points paying race in in the last few hours. I had just woken up and jumped in the race, without breakfast for fear that I would not have another chance.

I racing is balking on the idea of having leagues. They are afraid, and rightly so, that it will take too much traffic from the organized series. Making it even harder for the subscribership to get their full points potentials in the series'. They intend to limit league races to once a week and disallow points and rating increases in the main world for completing those league races. They fear that people will use all their racing time to practice for and race in the leagues. I will.

As it stands, you cannot race your friends, foes, or casual acquaintances in iRacing except for by chance. You can call your friend on the phone and say I am racing this car and track in 10 minutes and if the field is full you might be split into different races and there is nothing you can do about it.

As good as the iRacing series are, I'm afraid that 7 years of LFS has led me to believe that the drivers have as much imagination as the developers. And a lot more spare time in which to organize a HEEEUGE variety of fun races and series. I mean, endurance races with driver swaps? Come on... that kills!

I am going to pay iRacing for the CTRA atmosphere. Where I work towards a goal, I get better, I earn points, then find myself in higher class races. Sounds simple doesn't it? Not so much once you get in there and start to understand the failures of the system. I look forward to running the SR8 and Mazda next season. I'm guessing right now, having not yet seen the schedule for the season which is only 4 weeks or so away, that I will spend $200 for the tracks. If not, it will be close enough to make my point. I'm spending this money with no guarantee whatsoever that I will be able to fulfill my race obligations to the point that I can look at the standings and say, "Yes. This is where I stand in this group of drivers." I may sit on the other side of the season and wonder if I could have gotten the 32 points needed to one up Scott Green had I been able to race just one more race.

All of this considered: The attitude in LFS is tangibly more lighthearted. Just as serious about racing. But more... uh... community minded? Friendly? Is that what I'm looking for? There is very little chat going on in iRacing. Verbal or written. You are absolutely not allowed to rib anyone or express your true feelings about a situation. Sure tempers flair on the track sometimes, but that is decidedly human. It makes us real. To each other. Through a fancy TV screen. There is more personality in LFS.

LFS, race when you want, not every two hours to empty servers. Every time I enter a server in LFS I get what I am looking for. A race and a result. And then I know where I stand. And I can join a server with people I choose to race. (I use the term 'race' lightly in most cases.) Also, every time I look for a server with a race on it, I find one. I spend far too much of my day staring at the iRacing session schedule wishing for a race that aint gonna happen. (What the F#&@ am I paying for?)

That last sentence in parentheses would get me a reprimand on the iRacing forum and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they yanked my account. I don't feel welcome there. (Even though I'm F*%&#*$ paying.)

Here's the important bit for me: As far as I understand it, and I don't claim to in any way, Scawen wants to make the finest asphalt automobile racing simulation available in his lifetime. From what I believe I've seen and read, he chooses to not compromise his vision of what that is. From what I've seen and read, I agree with that philosophy 100%. Every point in this thread has genuine basis. All observations of both sims accurate for the most part. That being said, if you spend some time with iRacing, you will find a much greater element of unrealism in their sim. A lack of variety in races, points systems, and personality. Damage is ridiculous and unpredictable. Sorry, but the physics are just off. (Drive it yourself, you'll feel it eventually.) They claim to be the most real sim out there, not even allowing mouse, but if you don't have a clutch, that's cool, just don't expect your brakes or steering to actually utilize the full range of control in the sim. In the end I get the feeling that K&Cs priorities are off. On for their agenda, perhaps. Which may be to make a lot of money marketing a cool real world alternative to having talent, money, and luck. But iRacings philosophy does not ring as true as Scawens. And their sim, and the experience that one can expect within iRacing, feels that way. Snowboarding, skateboarding, karting, and bicycling... I've been in a lot of races in my life. I know what racers are like. I get more racing from LFS. It just seems more pure at heart. The people are more free somehow. And many of them are the same people.

And I think Scawen does that on purpose. Amoung everything else he has to think about in LFS, he really does take care to involve us. Not cater to us. But let us get involved. It's intelligence at work. A higher order of thought. Completeness.

Fanboy? No. It's empirically evident.

Quote from RatzMilk :

When CTRA closed down, there were many posts saying they would be happy to pay a subscription fee to keep it running. I would have been quite happy to pay a subscription fee to keep CTRA alive. I liked CTRA. For me, I spent almost all my LFS time on CTRA servers. Now I spend my time (and money) on iRacing servers. I play with LFS. I race with iRacing.

If LFS started charging a yearly rate the racing would quickly start looking more like iRacing. It is problematic though... wait... maybe not. I was thinking that anyone who has payed so far would have every right to complain seeing that the deal was different when they joined. But some different server licenses, like the difference between demo, S1, and S2. S2P or somesuch. All drivers on those servers would be those who have payed the yearly rate. If you don't care to pay, you use the other three systems. The pay system would be much more dedicated. It's pretty obvious I would think. Then, if the devs so choose, they could even defer some small portion of those monies to the leagues from the customers they draw to that system.

I don't know, now I'm thinking too much. I'm really just amazed that I'm paying so much to iRacing. It could be much better, or... a better value... or something.

Anyway, how long has it been since S2 came out? 40 bucks? 3 computers ago? A fourth on the way? 2 Wheels? A third on the way? 5 or 6 other sims? 330 lift passes? 60 bad dinners at overpriced restaurants? 2 couches and 2 cars?

Can I paypal Scawen for no reason?

PS Still no girlfriend, but working on Ana. Mmmm.... Ana.... serious business though. Very serious.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Tue, 21 Apr 2009 04:44.

Quote from NightShift :

Yep the main issue with low FOVs anyway is during races when you have to use your look buttons a lot - I have raced a lot with FOV in the 60s but it's annoying and even dangerous having to look around so often. Now I'm back to a more comfortable 82 so I can see the left mirror in most cars.

Now that is another surprising observation I had. My first thought was, "I'll never be able to race like this and be welcome back for a second round." Then I tried my look buttons and flew right off the track.

Then I went to a practice session at VIR and found that my situational awareness is much more acute. Even with out the look buttons I just *know* where everyone is. I know that sounds cavalier, but I was passed and did some passing and dicing and not a single bump. My traffic anticipation was highly accurate. (Am getting used to the look buttons too.)

Yeah, I do have high hopes for the GT3.

I don't know why I was using 95. I've always used lower. It has something to do with deleting my LFS folder by mistake on a system reinstall and having not raced in a while. Anyway, the minute I hit 60, I lost two seconds at FE2. Times are the same in iRacing unfortunately, but I'm not used to it yet. Does feel much better though. Hard to see traffic. Went up to 65 in iRacing.

Bob's calc says my setup should be at 25.3. I tried 30 in LFS. Yup. That seems about right. What it would look like in a real car. Would need a monitor matrix of no less that 2x3 to see what is actually going on though. Could never learn a track like that.

Thanks for reminding me to experiment with that.

Here's an observation that surprised me somewhat. With lower FOVs trailing throttle oversteer is a bit more willing, the car seems rotate more easily. On the other side, power on oversteer is feels slightly less willing. I can use more foot. Monkeying around on curbs is much easier.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Tue, 7 Apr 2009 17:07.

Quote from Juls :

Did you try iRacing with 90 degrees?

Yeah, and my timing is off. I suppose I could adjust through practice. I usually set the FOV by intuitive timing. I move it until I naturally brake and throttle at the points that I think I am doing it. So iRacing 82, LFS 95. iRacing seems like it has a fisheye or wideangle to me. LFS seems more natural. Considering my lap times, I won't hurt to experiment in both.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Why not?

That mill has NO torque until high rpm, and your setup can allow that. In fact the default sets are rather safe. You could do the same thing in a comparable corner in LFS in the FOX. Think of the final turn at AS3R in the FOX.

I'm always a bit tentative there, but I catch your meaning.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

What.. the... Are you talking about iRacing or LFS in that sentence? Because that's very precisely how I feel about LFS. I drove each for 2 hours last night, and LFS is a constant game of managing how much you slide around, never feeling that the car is actually connected to the track for some reason. I find that LFS feels like you're flopping around like a rubber fish in comparison. I find that LFS rewards overdriving to a point, while iRacing punishes it.

It would be fair to say that I feel the exact opposite. For the last 15 years or so I have pondered the relevance of ocular disposition on the sim racing experience. How big is the monitor? How far away? What shape is the eyeball? What, psychologically, are we expecting to feel?

I really can't imagine how any of these devs make a universally acceptable sim.

Quote from Speed Soro :

You need to buy a G25 (do it as soon as you can). The difference is big.

After reading much and watching some very impressive reviews on Youtube, I have gone ahead and ordered the Fanatec GT3 clubsport. I hope that is not a mistake as, as far as I know, no one has one in their grubby little mits yet. The G25 however is widely used.

Your cockpit is sweet. If I had two computers I would build something like that. I really find comfort in the seat position being static.

New info

I sorted my controller problem absolutely. It is surely a wonky Momo specific problem. And... as I've heard from a few others, G25 as well. The whole time it was the deadzone in the throttle pedal. That's right, the throttle pedal. By bypassing that deadzone the brakes now calibrate properly. But only if I do the wheel after the pedals. If I do the wheel before the pedals I get glitchy surges in braking power and lose the ability to go full throttle. I can mash the brake pedal to the floor without lock at speed. Modulation is now possible. I'm looking at replays before and after. Before the brake was going on and off like a switch. After, the pedal gauge is fluid and realistic.

iRacing is smooth. Really, really cool. I understand what people are saying about the feel. iRacing is much more apparent on some level. It rocks the boat so to speak. More seat of your pants, in your face... The physics are not all that great I have to say. I mean, flat in first gear in the Star Mazda from the apex out of 18 at VIR Grand West with full steering lock? I don't think so. It's even off camber. Not a chance.

Did a few laps in the FBM at Fern Bay last night. Now that's rear drive.

Without question, I like the left foot better in iRacing and the right foot better in LFS. I also like the perspective much better in LFS. iRacing cars are too big. Even when I can see a tire on a curb I have no idea where I am on the track. The chassis dynamics feel much more precise in LFS. That might be part of why iRacing seems more immediate. It moves too much over the road and not quite correctly so you get this sense of being loose all the time. Thrilling.

I really jumped the gun posting this. Now that I've driven both for real I am done. LFS is better. But not by a lot.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Mon, 6 Apr 2009 10:24.

Whoa....

For anyone who implied, even in the slightest way, that I was off my nut for thinking the controller implementation is not optimum in iRacing, well... thanks for the support. I was starting to believe you.

In my case, blindly assuming that the controller implementation was as bad as GPL when clearly only 15% or less people are complaining of the same problems I'm having (not the other way around like GPL) so it's probably something else, well... that's what I get for having a vendetta against DK and Crew.

GPL had no feel, there was GUI latency, and the braking slope licked.

iRacing brakes are wonderful. Man do they feel good. I'll have to bounce back and forth between LFS and iRacing before I make a fanboy decision. But right now I'm going to be spending a lot of time in iRacing.

Let me try to state this quickly because I need to go to the iRacing forums so other with the same problems might benefit from my experimentation.

Based on Yaper's suggestions I fiddled with the calibration and got the controller to report to iRacing correctly. There was some kind of over that would happen in iRacings brain if I moved my controllers to their full extent during calibration. By limiting my input during calibration, as well as another trick that has to do with sequence of calibration moves, I got what I now know some of you are referring to. Full resolution.

Holy smokes the brakes are good. They don't lock when they shouldn't. They do lock when they should, and I can floor the pedal momentarily at speed without locking. I now have full range of motion and am feeling detail that simply was not there before.

Prior to today's session I was having real problems. At Oak Tree turn in VIR the line is pretty straight forward. But it was always a crapshoot for me. It drove me nuts that I could only set that corner up by chance. It's not the kind of corner that should be such a struggle. Also the entry into T3. With any yaw, it was really easy to upset the car with the brakes. Really, really easy. And of course the last corner at VIR. To get the right the second to last has to be solid. I was struggling with consistently getting entry into the second to last. Again it was a crap shoot.

It's all better now, and it's repeatable. Thanks Yaper.

So here's an analogy. I have no way of knowing what is actually happening, but this is my interpretation of what my problems were like based on the difference in my new setup:

It's as if there were only 6 steps of resolution in the controllers. I wasn't getting consistency. Lockups seemed random. I would under or over brake without knowing why, or feeling or hearing it. Sometimes I'd brake smoothly with yaw, sometimes the thing would get upset. I could never set up that tree because I never knew how quickly or slowly I was going to enter that diminishing combi. So if I was up against the stopper, I might be at level 3 one lap, or level 2 or 4 the next lap. I get this impression because a) braking power was highly inconsistent, and b) the sound did nothing for me. Now, there is soooo much dimension in both the sound and what the pedal does. It's like the pedal was only sending 5 or 6 messages so the brakes only had 5 or 6 states. Add to that random pressures, such as spikes, and the thing is beyond cumbersome. I can't believe I ran so many races like that. (I did, and have been, checking both the iRacing raw report and DXTeaks raw reports and the pedals themselves are smooth. There are no spikes or missing ranges. There is however, a hesitation for the throttle pedal to return to 0, staying up around 14 out of 255 from time to time.)

That being said, I am about 7/10ths per minute slower than I was. I hope it's just because I am learning a new controller.

I can't imagine what this means software wise. There are some other discussions in the iRacing forums that point to possibly being caused by what ever is causing this. I was also having the same kind of res problems with the steering, not as severe, that are also smoothed out by tricking the calibration routine.

OK, back to fanboy mode. I have always thought LFS is the single most trouble free software I've ever used. I've had my complaints about the physics and sound from time to time. But I swear I have never done anything but click on the icon and it goes. It does what it's supposed to every time without fail. I've been lucky enough to never have a blue screen or black screen. I think once I was having frame rate issues but that was something I clicked. An once in a while info appears or disappears on the screen. Oddly enough during session chats.

PS The rubber stopper is in the bin.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Sun, 5 Apr 2009 01:42.

Quote from NightShift :

LFS is the same as iRacing as in you have no feedback from the brake pedal. It's the same in LFS, in iRacing, in nKp, in rF... in every simulator ever made.

Actually, that's not true. I have spent valuable time in the View options getting my load forces just right to help with the braking feel. I also find the sound in LFS helpful. And that is eactly the point. As a real time sim designer you have to pull what's not there out of your ass. The braking in iRacing fails in every respect. Not very impressive coming from the Godfather of sims. A weak showing.

Quote from NightShift :

If you can't be bothered to buy a decent-but-affordable set of pedals, why should the sim developers fix that for you?

You know, I can't disagree in any way. This is a wonderful philosophy. However, I think iRacing should be a little more public with it, especially so people will know this before buying in. It should be very obvious in their marketing campaign. If they are offering iRacing to the masses, it should be developed for the masses. If not, it should be marketed as such.

The literature says that you must use a wheel. It does not say anything about a load cell. If it did, I would have waited until June to try it.

Quote from NightShift :

Fine with me, but it is entirely YOUR choice, and YOU have to accept the consequences of it. Not the other players.

You see. That's where I really just don't belong in this conversation. I simply do not see how the other players would be negatively affected by having more clean racers on the grid. Sometimes I can be quite thick.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Sat, 4 Apr 2009 19:55.

Quote from gruggy :

i use firefox for the internet if thats what you mean and i also tryed to download with firefox but that didnt work not only does it not open but for a while no matter if i open with internet explorer or firefox the message doesnt come up at all some thing flashes for a split second then goes away?

Something flashing in Firefox may be your download window. While in your Firefox window, one at a time press the keys "ALT" "T" and "O". Your options window should open. In the "Main" tab of the options window the middle box is "Downloads". If you have ticked "Show the Downloads window when downloading a file" and also ticked "Close it when all downloads are finished". Then the thing that flashes may be the download window.

Do a search for the files on your computer by going to your START button, clicking "Search", then "For Files or Folders".

Then... Dang It. I'm running vista and I've never used this search and it looks wierd.

Anyway, there should be a blank box there. Type in the name of the file and if you see the option of where to search tell it to search your whole computer. Click the Search button or hit your "Enter" key and wait until it's completely done.

If you see the file name, try to figure out from the search window, where the file is. Then go get it.

Sorry I'm not more help on the search window. Vista is weird.

...actually, it's kinda nice.

Quote from NightShift :

To me LFS is exactly the same. The big difference is the max brake force is customizable in LFS which basically makes keyboard and mouse users potentially as good brakers as wheel users (=utter nonsense)

TBH I prefer the iRacing approach: the software is agnostic so it's only up to you and your controller (as IRL it's only you and your car), and they're trying to make sure nobody finds a way around this.

I've had excellent races with keyboarders. Races I wouldn't trade for any philosophy. And LFS is not the same, there are actually several options throughout the game that relate directly to the brakes. And by going through DX, they allow even more options. I've never been beat by a cheat in LFS. I've always been dominated by skill. Keyboard, mouse, joystick - which is allowed in iRacing, or wheel, if the driver pays for the ware and produces skills, why not let them race? I think the point *is* to allow key/mousers to be as good. Trust me, they work hard for it.

Let's explore that second idea.

I real life any car I've owned, new or used, sporty or utilitarian, has always had the brakes pretty well matched to the driver controls, yes... in RL it is me and my car. In iRacing it's me and a car that is wildly inferior to yours. We all use the same iRacing software, but we all do not have access to it in the same way. The nature of my controllers in their unaltered state give me a different Mazda than your Mazda. So by the logic in the agnostic approach they have created a sim for the elite with low integrity? Or they have simply turned me into a keyboard braker. In which case, it is my goal to be potentially as a good braker as pedal users (=NOT utter nonsense)

I've been thinking about why they are not using DX. I'm assuming one reason may be to keep people from exploiting the controllers. I personally can't figure out how changing the shape of a control slope would allow one to cheat, but there is a lot I can't figure out. If the idea is to keep things even then they should allow everyone to adjust their controls how ever they like so they can exploit the simulation. How about charging $350 for the first month then sending the Official iRacing controller to the driver? The software could check for compliance. Or use the same compliance to check for any number of controllers on the iRacing authorized controller list?

Quote from yaper :

Slartibartfast
Can't you calibrate your brake pedal in iRacing in this way:
- press and hold your pedal up to the resistance point and go into pedal calibration menu
- when iRacing will ask to move brake pedal back and forth, press it to the metal and then release only to the resistance point
- finish callibration

Man. Do I like that idea. I think I have tomorrow night off. I will try it. The rubber stopper is too stiff. I've already whittled one down too far trying allow lock but not terminal lock. The one I have now doesn't allow lock, so it's still too high. Adjusting the pedal in that manner should be great if it doesn't drift.

Quote from PMD9409 :

Whatever, I'm not going to say your right or wrong, but I'm not going to blame "CrammondWare" as you call it because my pedals/brakes work completely fine (and I don't lock up the brakes 95% of the time).

I don't lock up the brakes either. I have a rubber stopper. You'll see me in races, as my license grades get higher.

[edit 04-09-09] I think I choose to blame KaemmerWare based on this little tidbit from the KaemmerWare forum:

"For now, you cannot use DXTweak or DIView calibration software in iRacing because the iRacing software does not look into the registry for calibration values. It takes them directly from the controller output like previously mentioned. I have talked to the iRacing guys about this. It is not that they are against using outside calibration software. It is mainly that this is the way it was done in the beginning and until they get caught up with other more important issues, they just don't have the time to changing it."

...aaaaand this:

"Strangely this only happened here but not in other sims. I assumed it was because the Direct X method prevents this somehow. Still, it seems the method iRacing uses is prone to more issues than the Direct X method. Although there maybe benefits and reasons to the way they do it."

Soooo... apparently, things like controller implementation and online code can wait until they get the Lotus 79 and Road Atlanta going. Oh, and work out the new pricing structure. And crack down on a few more paying users who use the D word in the forums. (Darn!) ...or, just wait until everyone gives in and stops complaining. It is the safest simulation racing environment on the internet, even if 25% of their users can't control their cars or know what ghost it was that just wiped them out.

Last edited by Slartibartfast, Thu, 9 Apr 2009 10:38.

I like iRacing because the system rewards the mediocre driver.

I've never seen my name so high in the charts.