Regarding the N.400S GT4
The spoke object does exceed limits. It has 6095 triangles but the limit is 1600 so this has been inserted into the veh using a hack.
The main model is only 20 triangles below the limit at 65515 triangles. This limit was only intended for extreme cases, it's not a target or a guide. Really models should be a lot lower than this and still be good quality for a game. Lower polygon count is better for game models.
Given the very high resolution main model, I don't know how much of the generation time is caused by the spoke object. But the spoke object is excessive and also wasteful - there is a lot of detail also in a rim object that mostly can't be seen as it is hidden by the so-called spoke object.
Given the new rim editor allows good detail to be produced by the rim cross-section, I can see no reason why the rim editor could not be used as intended in this case and use the spoke model for... spokes.
I totally agree with you I suffer from the same problem whenever the server is crowded (30 players plus) I start get pit exit lag and sometimes it freezes for few seconds specially when someone is using those drift spec cars (s13, s14, s15), and now since I discovered that high poly rims have something to do with pit exit lag as scawen says I'll have to fix my mods too.
after all I don't think this decision is bad at all since we have rim editor that allows pretty good and detailed rim lip, on rim spoke we just need to get creative.
It seems to me, two pieces actually. On a traditional steel wheel, the "Rim" part and the "Spoke" part come from separate pieces of metal.
I found this video very interesting:
By the way, does everyone know that in the spoke editor, if you are actually using "number of spokes" more than 1, the editor allows you to stitch one spoke perfectly to the next? Triangles can be connected from the "main" spoke to the one to the left of it (magenta points). Then click "wire" view mode to check that edges are shared correctly.
Well, I don't really expect you to understand unless you've tried coding a 3D graphics engine. You'll just have to take my word for it.
So far you're not really trying.
Try to really understand the diagrams in my first post. if you don't listen, you won't learn. What you are calling a steel "rim" is actually a whole wheel, and the rim itself looks nothing like a real steel rim. A steel rim follows the yellow lines in the rim editor, which you are failing to observe.
You really need to try and learn to use the rim editor and then you will find there are plenty of triangles left for your spokes.
Also, go for a walk and have a look at some real steel wheels.
Last edited by Scawen, .
I have been working as an industrial designer for over 10 years, (primarily modeling) I model all my mods myself. I hope this makes you aware that I know what I'm talking about.
Even in the mobile gaming industry, racing games the limits are higher than 11k tris for car. Unless the graphics are stylized to low poly. In modern PC simracing games LFS has the smallest amount of polys right now.
I wouldn't say that, my slogan is beauty in the details. The more details, the more realistic the mod looks. I can working with a 65.5k limit on a car (But sometimes I wish there was more). But 1600 for spokes, that's too low for many cases. Yes, if your spokes are 5-6 relatively straight sticks, there's nothing complicated here. (and even then we won't see modeled nuts and air valve there...and the constant use of hard edges with is not good for realism) but if the spokes are more complicated, that's where it gets tricky and there's a loss of details to get to the limits. And I have no idea what to do if you have to make rims with complex designs like BBS. You'll have to make a lot of sacrifices in the form of giving up some details like pattern in middle and nuts.
In my mod, I had to remove the nuts and add them as hub obj and use a hard edges. Hard Edges are bad because they literally don't exist in reality, which is why it often looks weird. There is no object in real world that converges towards the edge with a 90 degree surface, everything has a chamfer. For example, on the picture with the real rim on which I used as a reference clearly visible chamfer on the spoke, which has a specific shine that makes this rim even more beautiful, this shine is impossible in LFS with hard edges (with different color groups). But it is possible with a chamfer (bevel). Also in blender hard edges should be "looped" that it would be correctly transferred to the LFS editor as it is converted to color groups and that makes it even harder to use. (in blender shading it is not necessary to loop the hard edge to see the result) Instead, I prefer to use the bevel with additional edges wherever possible..But the limitation on spokes makes this almost impossible. And that's not even taking into account other rims with complex designs.
EDIT: I made a version my spokes with nuts and bevels in necessary places and I got 3.7k..
Even in the mobile gaming industry, racing games the limits are higher than 11k tris for car. Unless the graphics are stylized to low poly. In modern PC simracing games LFS has the smallest amount of polys right now.
I wouldn't say that, my slogan is beauty in the details. The more details, the more realistic the mod looks. I can working with a 65.5k limit on a car (But sometimes I wish there was more). But 1600 for spokes, that's too low for many cases. Yes, if your spokes are 5-6 relatively straight sticks, there's nothing complicated here. (and even then we won't see modeled nuts and air valve there...and the constant use of hard edges with is not good for realism) but if the spokes are more complicated, that's where it gets tricky and there's a loss of details to get to the limits. And I have no idea what to do if you have to make rims with complex designs like BBS. You'll have to make a lot of sacrifices in the form of giving up some details like pattern in middle and nuts.
In my mod, I had to remove the nuts and add them as hub obj and use a hard edges. Hard Edges are bad because they literally don't exist in reality, which is why it often looks weird. There is no object in real world that converges towards the edge with a 90 degree surface, everything has a chamfer. For example, on the picture with the real rim on which I used as a reference clearly visible chamfer on the spoke, which has a specific shine that makes this rim even more beautiful, this shine is impossible in LFS with hard edges (with different color groups). But it is possible with a chamfer (bevel). Also in blender hard edges should be "looped" that it would be correctly transferred to the LFS editor as it is converted to color groups and that makes it even harder to use. (in blender shading it is not necessary to loop the hard edge to see the result) Instead, I prefer to use the bevel with additional edges wherever possible..But the limitation on spokes makes this almost impossible. And that's not even taking into account other rims with complex designs.
EDIT: I made a version my spokes with nuts and bevels in necessary places and I got 3.7k..
Last edited by Aleksandr_124rus, .
It's not the time to talk to me about changing the limits. I am working on other things and could do without a battle against mod hackers.
The rim editor updates were introduced during the test patch stages. It would have been good to discuss it at that time, as you may know that is what test patches are for. To introduce updates and test them. The idea of a test patch is not just to keep quiet and hope I don't notice the use of hacking tools, which I admit I have been slow to notice.
There is a rim editor, a spoke editor and there are also hub objects, that you are free to use within the limits.
The rim editor updates were introduced during the test patch stages. It would have been good to discuss it at that time, as you may know that is what test patches are for. To introduce updates and test them. The idea of a test patch is not just to keep quiet and hope I don't notice the use of hacking tools, which I admit I have been slow to notice.
There is a rim editor, a spoke editor and there are also hub objects, that you are free to use within the limits.
Hey Scawen,
Expanding on the above...
I've spent this morning doing some research into different rims within LFS now that the limits are being enforced.
I've attached a sheet that I've looked at some of the staff picks, approved, and unapproved mods with triangle count for the rims, whether they are using the rim editor to it's potential, or if they opt to use the hub obj.
I believe that the 1600 tri limit is way too low for any reasonable amount of detail. Especially if you want to include some details like better lug nuts, or bolts around a 3 piece wheel. Texturing doesn't cut it, tried that method. Using a hub obj doesn't always cut it either, unless you designed the mod with that in mind from the beginning, many mods are already 60k+ tri. I'm sure this was plenty when designing the XRT at 8k tris total for the mod.
Compared to the main mod that has the limit of 65k, the rim detail doesn't match the quality we can do in the main mod.
As for the right amount of tris, I think 4096 would be enough to provide the detail that we are trying for (maybe others can chime in here), especially after working so hard within the 65k limit for the main mod to provide as much detail as efficiently as possible. For example, I aim to have base models at around 50k tris, to allow for modifications like body kits, and other detailed accessories that are part of drifting and racing.
If there is a concern for upping the limit, it seems that people have been skirting around the system since the limit is too low. Since avoiding the whole check, there could be rims at even 22k tri, resulting in 88k tri total, agreed that is far beyond what lfs was designed for and can cause issues with pit lag, which is compounded when mods have configs that go above 65k tri max...
When you mentioned that there was a high poly count in one spoke, often modders will import from blender which contains the whole rim, and just use "1 spoke", this is especially true when the rim has say 6 spokes, but only 5 lug nuts, which using the spoke system doesn't really work for.
Again, I'd love to embrace native tools, and work with the system, but I think the limit needs to be increased before any take up from the modders. Maybe a staged approach could be considered, from 1600 to 3200, to 4096, or above.
Expanding on the above...
I've spent this morning doing some research into different rims within LFS now that the limits are being enforced.
I've attached a sheet that I've looked at some of the staff picks, approved, and unapproved mods with triangle count for the rims, whether they are using the rim editor to it's potential, or if they opt to use the hub obj.
I believe that the 1600 tri limit is way too low for any reasonable amount of detail. Especially if you want to include some details like better lug nuts, or bolts around a 3 piece wheel. Texturing doesn't cut it, tried that method. Using a hub obj doesn't always cut it either, unless you designed the mod with that in mind from the beginning, many mods are already 60k+ tri. I'm sure this was plenty when designing the XRT at 8k tris total for the mod.
Compared to the main mod that has the limit of 65k, the rim detail doesn't match the quality we can do in the main mod.
As for the right amount of tris, I think 4096 would be enough to provide the detail that we are trying for (maybe others can chime in here), especially after working so hard within the 65k limit for the main mod to provide as much detail as efficiently as possible. For example, I aim to have base models at around 50k tris, to allow for modifications like body kits, and other detailed accessories that are part of drifting and racing.
If there is a concern for upping the limit, it seems that people have been skirting around the system since the limit is too low. Since avoiding the whole check, there could be rims at even 22k tri, resulting in 88k tri total, agreed that is far beyond what lfs was designed for and can cause issues with pit lag, which is compounded when mods have configs that go above 65k tri max...
When you mentioned that there was a high poly count in one spoke, often modders will import from blender which contains the whole rim, and just use "1 spoke", this is especially true when the rim has say 6 spokes, but only 5 lug nuts, which using the spoke system doesn't really work for.
Again, I'd love to embrace native tools, and work with the system, but I think the limit needs to be increased before any take up from the modders. Maybe a staged approach could be considered, from 1600 to 3200, to 4096, or above.
Are you sure you are using the correct version?
Does it show 0.7E on the entry screen when you start the editor?
Does it show 0.7E on the entry screen when you start the editor?
hyundai tuscani
I don't know how to use Blender, so I'm making it with an editor.
Hey Scawen,
We understand the benefits of the rim editor, but for me ive never been a huge fan of how it functions in its current state although in concept is great. In spoke editor, you can continue to extrude circle points again and again and finish a fully stepped lipped rim nice and clean with a good rim edge and bead while moving the camera around and then texturing how you want + sometimes ive deleted triangles in the lips for air valves or other rare cases (creating odd vintage rare wheels)
When using the rim editor, you have to
- no extrusion function to continue building surface, same as an exhaust system (rim editor is pretty minor so this is more just something that ive been used to for modelling/ time saver if small)
- Cant select multiple points with square selection like spoke editor (if i recall)
- no camera movement so if you want to zoom in or out, you cant.
- texturing was always odd, i seen the rim can now have more texture freedom recently so that was beneficial
- No point connection to actual wheel, so rim to wheel triangle connections just clip through each other sometimes gives weird connection lines depending on poly quality in the spoke editor. You notice the triangle lines were the wheel face meets rim.
- Sharing wheels online means now sharing the Rim+Spoke+png files.
I should say though the rim editor has had some new updates and the quality you can get now from rim editor is much greater, and it is pretty quick and easy to create a good rim exactly the same as i mention in Spoke Editor without having to use a lot of poly to create and smooth circle + every extrusion ups the triangle count.
It seems ive writen a huge paragraph, so ill try and sum it up as the current system (spoke + rim) functions really well & optimized… And i know some people in our community are not as fortunate for greater pc hardware… but its now 2024* and the poly count for wheels being 1600 was pretty low, hence the work around. 11500+ is steep as its 40k together… but i know mods with higher poly cars or wheels and never heard complaints in 40+ host is full hanging out in “Just a Ride”. I’ve actually mainly heard frame complaints from max prop limit touge layouts we’ve raced on xD.
Thanks for listening to my ted talk, hopefully you’ve all enjoyed ❤️
*building or buying a secondhand pc that can run lfs is fairly obtainable. If someone disagrees or their conditions are different that’s completely okay, but then they probably dont have the cash then to drop on a old racing game anyways and will stick to demo maybe S1 or ask for S3 in the LFS discord lol
We understand the benefits of the rim editor, but for me ive never been a huge fan of how it functions in its current state although in concept is great. In spoke editor, you can continue to extrude circle points again and again and finish a fully stepped lipped rim nice and clean with a good rim edge and bead while moving the camera around and then texturing how you want + sometimes ive deleted triangles in the lips for air valves or other rare cases (creating odd vintage rare wheels)
When using the rim editor, you have to
- no extrusion function to continue building surface, same as an exhaust system (rim editor is pretty minor so this is more just something that ive been used to for modelling/ time saver if small)
- Cant select multiple points with square selection like spoke editor (if i recall)
- no camera movement so if you want to zoom in or out, you cant.
- texturing was always odd, i seen the rim can now have more texture freedom recently so that was beneficial
- No point connection to actual wheel, so rim to wheel triangle connections just clip through each other sometimes gives weird connection lines depending on poly quality in the spoke editor. You notice the triangle lines were the wheel face meets rim.
- Sharing wheels online means now sharing the Rim+Spoke+png files.
I should say though the rim editor has had some new updates and the quality you can get now from rim editor is much greater, and it is pretty quick and easy to create a good rim exactly the same as i mention in Spoke Editor without having to use a lot of poly to create and smooth circle + every extrusion ups the triangle count.
It seems ive writen a huge paragraph, so ill try and sum it up as the current system (spoke + rim) functions really well & optimized… And i know some people in our community are not as fortunate for greater pc hardware… but its now 2024* and the poly count for wheels being 1600 was pretty low, hence the work around. 11500+ is steep as its 40k together… but i know mods with higher poly cars or wheels and never heard complaints in 40+ host is full hanging out in “Just a Ride”. I’ve actually mainly heard frame complaints from max prop limit touge layouts we’ve raced on xD.
Thanks for listening to my ted talk, hopefully you’ve all enjoyed ❤️
*building or buying a secondhand pc that can run lfs is fairly obtainable. If someone disagrees or their conditions are different that’s completely okay, but then they probably dont have the cash then to drop on a old racing game anyways and will stick to demo maybe S1 or ask for S3 in the LFS discord lol
lfs.net/LFSE bug when trying to upload mod file. [wrong version of editor]
Hello, i have found this bug and it doesnt sllow me upload my mod:
Vehicle mod archive * : The .veh file in the archive did not pass validation: Invalid file sub-revision version (1). Please use the latest official LFS Vehicle Editor's export function to create the mod archive.
I tried everything possible but no solution found, i didnt touch the ZIP files, i use LFSE 7E, tried restarting pc and re exporting files and tried aswell a different browser.
Vehicle mod archive * : The .veh file in the archive did not pass validation: Invalid file sub-revision version (1). Please use the latest official LFS Vehicle Editor's export function to create the mod archive.
I tried everything possible but no solution found, i didnt touch the ZIP files, i use LFSE 7E, tried restarting pc and re exporting files and tried aswell a different browser.
A little bit? Yesterday the system detected an individual spoke object with over 11,500 triangles, which is more than enough for a whole vehicle.
Have you learned to use the rim editor properly? This is not clear from your reply.
1600 triangles for some spokes is way more than enough.
The hacked mods that are already uploaded have not been detected, so everyone else can continue to experience the associated frame rate hit (admittedly this is probably not noticeable for most people in the current graphics system) and the pit-out glitch (slower generation of the mod when exiting the pits).
Rim Editor
EDIT: This thread is now obsolete.
A new triangle budget of 4240 is shared between spoke and rim objects
You can get the new editor in the Editor Test Patch Thread
I recently learned that some people discovered a hack that allowed them to exceed the triangle limits for spoke objects.
The mod checker now makes sure you do not exceed triangle limits when uploading a mod.
There shouldn't be any need to exceed the limit of 1600 triangles per spoke object.
The trick is... do not include the rim in the spoke object!
Use the RIM EDITOR to make the rim.
Use the SPOKE EDITOR to make the spokes.
The rim editor has been updated in the recent update. I did a lot of work on it and it is a lot better than in the original LFS Editor. You create the cross-section of a rim by adding points and connecting the points with surfaces. The rim uses the first mapping from the spoke object, so you can use any material settings you wish (including a texture if you like).
There is a new guide in the rim editor that shows the cross-section of a steel rim when you are in the rim editor. The idea is that the steel rim represents the minimum amount of material. Alloys have thicker metal and exceed the steel rim outline.
These two images show the sequence for setting up a realistic rim.
EDIT: Added 3 more images showing examples of steel rim and two (of many) possibilities for alloy rims.
First set the correct rim width.
Then edit the rim, making sure you cover the steel rim profile.
An example of a steel rim style:
Alloy example 1:
Alloy example 2:
A new triangle budget of 4240 is shared between spoke and rim objects
You can get the new editor in the Editor Test Patch Thread
I recently learned that some people discovered a hack that allowed them to exceed the triangle limits for spoke objects.
The mod checker now makes sure you do not exceed triangle limits when uploading a mod.
There shouldn't be any need to exceed the limit of 1600 triangles per spoke object.
The trick is... do not include the rim in the spoke object!
Use the RIM EDITOR to make the rim.
Use the SPOKE EDITOR to make the spokes.
The rim editor has been updated in the recent update. I did a lot of work on it and it is a lot better than in the original LFS Editor. You create the cross-section of a rim by adding points and connecting the points with surfaces. The rim uses the first mapping from the spoke object, so you can use any material settings you wish (including a texture if you like).
There is a new guide in the rim editor that shows the cross-section of a steel rim when you are in the rim editor. The idea is that the steel rim represents the minimum amount of material. Alloys have thicker metal and exceed the steel rim outline.
These two images show the sequence for setting up a realistic rim.
EDIT: Added 3 more images showing examples of steel rim and two (of many) possibilities for alloy rims.
First set the correct rim width.
Then edit the rim, making sure you cover the steel rim profile.
An example of a steel rim style:
Alloy example 1:
Alloy example 2:
Last edited by Scawen, .
Ok but i downloaded the file and i eneter it in my Lfs editor map,but Microsoft Defender says that this app is unknown and it may be dangerous to my computer
Krita might be nice image editor aswell.
Make sure to check <game path>/data/skins/Skins_README.txt if you haven't already.
And if you got the urge to load-in image saved in .dds format, you can try out ImageMagick of FFmpeg to do so, quick google will show you what you need to get them running. Than both programs require just this one command line for basic usage:
Just remember that the 2D plane of the skin file LFS needs, due to technical reasons with 3D graphics, does not have proper aspect ratio when imported to the game. Thus, for example even size circle in the editor will become bit squeezed / elipse. Maybe one day someone will make plugin for blender to edit the skin when it's already mapped on car for best preview.
Make sure to check <game path>/data/skins/Skins_README.txt if you haven't already.
And if you got the urge to load-in image saved in .dds format, you can try out ImageMagick of FFmpeg to do so, quick google will show you what you need to get them running. Than both programs require just this one command line for basic usage:
ffmpeg -i from_dds.dds to_png.png
magick.exe from_dds.dds to_png.png
Just remember that the 2D plane of the skin file LFS needs, due to technical reasons with 3D graphics, does not have proper aspect ratio when imported to the game. Thus, for example even size circle in the editor will become bit squeezed / elipse. Maybe one day someone will make plugin for blender to edit the skin when it's already mapped on car for best preview.
You can use any image editor that is able to export to .jpg. I use Affinity Designer. Here's a short list of applications you can use:
- GIMP
- Photoshop
- Canva
- Pixlr
- GIMP
- Photoshop
- Canva
- Pixlr
gonna upload interior progress video, car is almost done in editor.
Lfs Editor Updating
hi, I would like to update the lfs editor to see what's new in the editor, but there is one problem. When I unlocked the lfs editor (with my username and password), the version was still 0.7C. Please give me suggestions. Thank you!
Drifting faster and logner with punctured slick tires.
Hello guys,
I would like to share my findings regarding slick tires and drift.
I'm playing around with mod editor. My goal is to achieve longer drift time or/and faster drift car (by faster I mean the car that slides with higher speed).
I found out, which is for all of You probably obvious, that sweet spot for a sport/normal tires is around 300HP on <1000kg car. Adding more power doesn't make a car faster (I tried clocked myself on the same track achievieng 39.xx lap each time - 300, 600, 900, 1200HP cars with 16-18inch wheels in high/low profile tires).
Then I tried to explore the possibilites of slick tires. They're burned after two corners in any given scenarios, but with the setup of rear wheels at 315/35 - 19" and 375 kPa and tires blown the car behaves like normal and it allows me to slide for almost 7 laps (4 laps without time loss). Also - a car with 10000HP, 890KG weight and this tires runs a full four drift laps at the same time - 34.xx. Using mods like saliva i achieved 39.xx on 1st lap, 41.xx 2nd, 45.xx 3rd and then tires blown). Burned slick gives 5seconds faster lap time than first lap on normal tires, 7 seconds faster than second, 11 seconds faster than third lap.
The only main difference is You have to use left foot brake instead of handbrake.
Here's the footage as a proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYiuE5QxhN8&ab_channel=luq_fpv
And also I did not do anything with the front tires - so there is a space for a better setup which might give more handling/drifting time
I'm using mouse as a steering wheel, so it's quite messy ride
I would like to share my findings regarding slick tires and drift.
I'm playing around with mod editor. My goal is to achieve longer drift time or/and faster drift car (by faster I mean the car that slides with higher speed).
I found out, which is for all of You probably obvious, that sweet spot for a sport/normal tires is around 300HP on <1000kg car. Adding more power doesn't make a car faster (I tried clocked myself on the same track achievieng 39.xx lap each time - 300, 600, 900, 1200HP cars with 16-18inch wheels in high/low profile tires).
Then I tried to explore the possibilites of slick tires. They're burned after two corners in any given scenarios, but with the setup of rear wheels at 315/35 - 19" and 375 kPa and tires blown the car behaves like normal and it allows me to slide for almost 7 laps (4 laps without time loss). Also - a car with 10000HP, 890KG weight and this tires runs a full four drift laps at the same time - 34.xx. Using mods like saliva i achieved 39.xx on 1st lap, 41.xx 2nd, 45.xx 3rd and then tires blown). Burned slick gives 5seconds faster lap time than first lap on normal tires, 7 seconds faster than second, 11 seconds faster than third lap.
The only main difference is You have to use left foot brake instead of handbrake.
Here's the footage as a proof:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYiuE5QxhN8&ab_channel=luq_fpv
And also I did not do anything with the front tires - so there is a space for a better setup which might give more handling/drifting time
I'm using mouse as a steering wheel, so it's quite messy ride
Last edited by LukasM, .
Interesting but I would like it in game editor.
the editor is really excellent. However, I hoped/believed that you could simply activate/deactivate the digital speedometer to be able to use it in hot laps.
do you know a way that allows this?
The LFS manual is a good starting point when you want to learn how to use the LFS Editor: https://en.lfsmanual.net/wiki/LFS_Editor
I believe you need an S3 licence to use the editor.
Hi, I saw that using the editor it is possible to set the digital speedo; How do I enter in the editor? Is there a guide?
Why would you need to use editor for skin creation? In LFS garage you have the viewer where you can see the skin on car without hassle of converting dds for editor.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG