"a strangely fast rwd front engined sportscar that handles like a modern muscle car except it has the looks of vintage racer. "
Definitely not what I'm arguing for..
The appeal of a muscle car that I find puts it above the rest of the cars is this:
1) It has a big engine. So far the only comparable engine in LFS is in the F08. The FZ engine is just 3.6 liters and is a flat-6. Nothing like what a traditional american block is like. A block like that's fun to race with, the same way the FZ's engine is fun now, compared to the rest of the engines in any of the other LFS road cars.
2) The character of the car, and how much of it it has. Putting that sort of engine and the chassis together makes for a sort of car that's like no other. That doesn't mean it's better than everything else; what I'm saying is it's really unique. And is it fun? It is.. Even if you don't fall head over heels for it, having such a different animal racing along side the rest of the pack would be a lot of fun.
So, I don't think it has to be vintage. Vintage gets mentioned so much only because it was a golden age where those cars really got to be at their best. I doubt today's iterations will differ much in character, though, I admit. But a vintage car would be really unique in LFS.. It'd have more or less the same character as a modern one, and would have all the vintage qualities that no other car in LFS would have.. The feel of the steering and chassis, etc. Wouldn't the Ford GT500 be fast enough?
Another thing.. It's obvious that the less well a muscle car would handle, the more it'd have to be powerful to balance that out, and the more difficult it'd be to balance with the rest of the LRF class. And if even a GT500 can't compete, I can't imagine that one of the recent retro muscle cars (one of the top models like the challenger SRT8) couldn't keep up with an FZ.
I just don't think so. The FZ is modern by its chassis and engine power/size ratio... The chassis is sophisticated; at least relative to leafsprings and solid axles etc. The bodywork is aerodynamic. How is a 993/6 not modern?
Adding more stuff to LFS is fine.. I don't know much, but I doubt it's really a huge task to add leafsprings or solid axles. It wouldn't be necessary for the modern muscle cars. e.g. the present Challenger is independent up front and 5-link in the back. The electronics for a skyline would be more difficult by far, I think. Muscle cars are pretty simple animals.
Adding another typicaly european car to the LRF class because the LRF class is already european.. That's arguing for less diversity, which is the opposite of what LFS needs, imo. A supra or RX7 or 300ZX would just be bigger faster XRTs. The Supra and 928 sorta stand out thanks to their engine (by now the chassis are pretty dated tho), but if that's their appeal, why not just go right out for that far end of the spectrum, with a muscle car? That'd cover a lot more of the full sports car spectrum in the LRF performance range.
A Skyline would definitely be a lot of fun.. It would probably win a lot more players over than a muscle car, although it'd probably have to be less powerful (reducing agility would remove the appeal of the car) than the real one to stay in LRF range. But both are potentialy really popular choices, I think, and they both bring a lot more novelty and variety to the carset than the others mentioned. Adding both would really be awesome.
Definitely not what I'm arguing for..
The appeal of a muscle car that I find puts it above the rest of the cars is this:
1) It has a big engine. So far the only comparable engine in LFS is in the F08. The FZ engine is just 3.6 liters and is a flat-6. Nothing like what a traditional american block is like. A block like that's fun to race with, the same way the FZ's engine is fun now, compared to the rest of the engines in any of the other LFS road cars.
2) The character of the car, and how much of it it has. Putting that sort of engine and the chassis together makes for a sort of car that's like no other. That doesn't mean it's better than everything else; what I'm saying is it's really unique. And is it fun? It is.. Even if you don't fall head over heels for it, having such a different animal racing along side the rest of the pack would be a lot of fun.
So, I don't think it has to be vintage. Vintage gets mentioned so much only because it was a golden age where those cars really got to be at their best. I doubt today's iterations will differ much in character, though, I admit. But a vintage car would be really unique in LFS.. It'd have more or less the same character as a modern one, and would have all the vintage qualities that no other car in LFS would have.. The feel of the steering and chassis, etc. Wouldn't the Ford GT500 be fast enough?
Another thing.. It's obvious that the less well a muscle car would handle, the more it'd have to be powerful to balance that out, and the more difficult it'd be to balance with the rest of the LRF class. And if even a GT500 can't compete, I can't imagine that one of the recent retro muscle cars (one of the top models like the challenger SRT8) couldn't keep up with an FZ.
I just don't think so. The FZ is modern by its chassis and engine power/size ratio... The chassis is sophisticated; at least relative to leafsprings and solid axles etc. The bodywork is aerodynamic. How is a 993/6 not modern?
Adding more stuff to LFS is fine.. I don't know much, but I doubt it's really a huge task to add leafsprings or solid axles. It wouldn't be necessary for the modern muscle cars. e.g. the present Challenger is independent up front and 5-link in the back. The electronics for a skyline would be more difficult by far, I think. Muscle cars are pretty simple animals.
Adding another typicaly european car to the LRF class because the LRF class is already european.. That's arguing for less diversity, which is the opposite of what LFS needs, imo. A supra or RX7 or 300ZX would just be bigger faster XRTs. The Supra and 928 sorta stand out thanks to their engine (by now the chassis are pretty dated tho), but if that's their appeal, why not just go right out for that far end of the spectrum, with a muscle car? That'd cover a lot more of the full sports car spectrum in the LRF performance range.
A Skyline would definitely be a lot of fun.. It would probably win a lot more players over than a muscle car, although it'd probably have to be less powerful (reducing agility would remove the appeal of the car) than the real one to stay in LRF range. But both are potentialy really popular choices, I think, and they both bring a lot more novelty and variety to the carset than the others mentioned. Adding both would really be awesome.
No. As things are in LFS, extra classes just turns the races into obstacle courses. There isn't the real life ambience nor sufficient player slots to make multi class races fun. I won't deny that Scavier could very well make additions in a coming patch that would make it a worthwhile addition.... But as things are now, it's not a good enough reason to add a muscle car in a separate class. It just won't be fun, it'll just be an ephemerous novelty. Not unless the AMC is in a class very nearly competitive with the present LRF (so that an insim handicap scheme can be used to race the amc against LRF without killing the amc's fun factor)... and that would probably be a waste. If a new class is made, it has to be different enough. e.g. Supercars, which would be more suitable for modern "muscle cars" like the corvette or viper. We have to remember that we're not after any specific brands like Vette or Viper or Dodge or BMW or M-Benz.. What we're after is what the cars drive like, their unique character. It's the character of each of these cars that makes their brand a credible badge, not the other way around. Any car that makes for a unique enough driving experience ought to have a spot in the LFS carset. Priority should go to whichever addition is most fun to race with the rest of the carset. I think a muscle car would be more fun in the LRF class than any other new car.
...
Sounds simple enough (at this point) to simply balance cornering handicap versus straight line advantage... This is what the Fz50 was to the RAC and LX6 when it was added. In our present case, the AMC would probably turn out to be a good companion to the FZ.
How much adjustability an amc would get depends on whether it's completely vintage, or vintage+aftermarket mods, or modern (there's also the question of whether the present road cars in LFS "deserve" all the adjustability they have) Myself, I personaly don't have any preference for either of those three muscle car variants. As long as the AMC gets a fire breathing engine, and is fun, and can compete.. It's good enough.
I don't agree that a modern AMC would be an overpowered FR Fz50 in disguise.. Not in the sense that it's nothing new. There's no FR sports car in LFS yet. The XRT for all its fortitude is still just an econobox. The LX is in a different league, it's the opposite of an AMC except for its FR layout. It's a sports car, but not redundant with what an AMC would be like to drive and race. The Fz50 isn't just an RR AMC. If that were true, Porsche 911s would be "just BMW 3series ripoffs"
But the current carset sort of precludes the only real alternatives.. : The LRF class already has an MR sports car, an FR pure sports car could fit into LRF but could just as well fit into a new Supercar class, (and this is the critical point: ) a muscle car is both unique (would be fun enough to warrant inclusion) and unable to compete anywhere else but in the LRF class; TBO is too slow, and Supercar is way too fast. So the AMC should get the LRF spot, unless you see another car that's more worthy? I think the carset as it is is begging for a big block engine, and I think a muscle car would be the most user friendly and fun candidate.
What do you think would be a more sensible addition to the LRF class? I'm not against a modern muscle car, but I think it'd be better to add a vintage one so as to leave more space between what's probably an inevitable FR sports car like the Corvette or M3, etc - better handling FR sports cars.
I also tweaked a corvette that'd fit into the LRF class, and it was a blast to race against them. It was the only car in the class that was completely user friendly by virtue of its FR layout, tractable engine, and forgiving tires.
Ok, but as-is what?
It's not going to be copied straight from a single specific model. And if it isn't, it might as well rid itself of those limitations and be the best quintessential muscle car it can be by taking the best of all muscle cars ever made. At that point (being a completely synthetic design) I don't see any good enough reason not to have it in the LRF class, whether it's a vintage or modern/retro design.
I agree the handicap measures are probably good enough in terms of laptimes, but they're just substitutes, crutches. I think they would detract from the car "as-is" and too easily kill the car's character. Driving a GTR in the FF-GTR class is sort of extreme, but that's really what an amc would feel like. If it's hard to design an amc to fit in LRF, I think it'd be even harder to make it so it would be just as fun unrestricted as not. And TBH I think if it's introduced in a separate class, it won't be as popular as some other alternative models could have been.
It's not going to be copied straight from a single specific model. And if it isn't, it might as well rid itself of those limitations and be the best quintessential muscle car it can be by taking the best of all muscle cars ever made. At that point (being a completely synthetic design) I don't see any good enough reason not to have it in the LRF class, whether it's a vintage or modern/retro design.
I agree the handicap measures are probably good enough in terms of laptimes, but they're just substitutes, crutches. I think they would detract from the car "as-is" and too easily kill the car's character. Driving a GTR in the FF-GTR class is sort of extreme, but that's really what an amc would feel like. If it's hard to design an amc to fit in LRF, I think it'd be even harder to make it so it would be just as fun unrestricted as not. And TBH I think if it's introduced in a separate class, it won't be as popular as some other alternative models could have been.
Strange is sure.. All that matters, though, is for the class to provide good racing.
There's a few reasons I see for putting an amc in LRF:
-It would increase the density of the performance cloud of the class. I said this before a dozen times already, but the point still stands and is pertinent here: the more cars in a class, the better the chances of a close race each time you add a new car, regardless of performance spread from track to track: 1, 2, 3), meaning closer racing even in single races.. e.g. Where the FZ gets left in the dust by the RAC and LX because of its weight, an amc ought to be nearby. In addition, the more cars in a class, the less the faster cars can get away from the pack on their own.
-There's no better fitting class at the moment. The only real problem I see is that the LRF class is still a bit weak compared to the true muscle cars.. So an amc would have to be porked by power or weight. That's a burden, in designing a fun car, but it should be counter-balanced by lesser handling.
-And it's better than a whole new class, unless Scavier can manage 2/3 new cars for this specific class at the same time.. Which is a less interesting proposition than e.g. 1 new car for 2/3 classes we already have.
I'm not a car dynamics specialist at all. But it ought to be doable, as far as I can guess, because the whole car is free to be designed to fit the class. That means gear ratios and engine character, specific chassis and suspension design, etc etc. All the quantitative is up to Scavier, and the only criteria is qualitative: that it conform to amc character. I don't have any hard evidence to back up this gut feeling, but although I see it could end up being pretty hairy, I think it's doable. Can you be more specific or give a precise example of why the setup offset problem would be unsolvable?
Do you really think that Scavier couldn't come up with some combination of parts that'd stop it from getting too far off the mean laptimes?
But that's really not so uncommon.. Would it really detract from an LFS amc's character to be a base vintage amc with a few minor upgrades? Because you see those about as often as bone stock ones, in the streets of the usa, and as far as I can tell, it doesn't really kill the 'amc' spirit of the car. What it does dilute is the specific character of such or such model as it was designed by the factory (e.g. the latest Mini had everyone astounded at how balanced the whole design was, but then it was given more power (more than the -S IIRC) by after-market parts, and that dramaticaly screwed up the balance and character), but we're not restricted by that in LFS.. And having those few upgrades would allow for even more balancing possibilities into the LRF class.
The car merely has to have the characteristics that made the AMC movement as a whole. Another thing this implies is that Scavier can actualy free themselves of all the red tape that the modern AMCs had to deal with, re: computerization and other modern manufacturing obligations.. The car could very well be modern and have the 80s (and earlier) unbuffered ass-seat-road feel, as well as a genuine muscle car feel. Maybe Scavier can look at all the old and new muscle cars and do what the manufacturers couldn't or weren't willing to do. Pull a Weismann of sorts. I don't think that's very far fetched at all!
It might not be specificaly a vintage feel, but it would still be completely different from everything else in LFS. I don't think it'd be a loss if it really were impossible to make a truly vintage amc that fit into the LRF class. Even a modern one (which is really just a few digits changed on performance charts, the character would remain) would satisfy all but the most hardcore muscle car fans.
Last edited by Breizh, .
Nice vid, but that autox course is tiny. Way to small a sample to make a point on.
260HP muscle car? I don't think so... And it wouldn't be similar to the FZ. The FZ is rear engined and actualy has some great chassis characteristics, only made odd by the weight distribution. The engine character could also be very different, e.g. if the amc engine is a relatively low revver.
Hyperactive.. That's pretty much what I've been saying. I think Scavier would know how to best compromise between vintage and modern. If you look upthread you can see I said the same thing - a mixed vintage/modern design would probably be too strange.
I do think the car would best go in the LRF class.
The leaf spring comment was sorta tongue in cheek. The corvettes still use leaf springs. Point being that you can still get the muscle car character almost anywhere in the range of old and new, and better or worse performing mechanical parts of muscle cars.
260HP muscle car? I don't think so... And it wouldn't be similar to the FZ. The FZ is rear engined and actualy has some great chassis characteristics, only made odd by the weight distribution. The engine character could also be very different, e.g. if the amc engine is a relatively low revver.
Hyperactive.. That's pretty much what I've been saying. I think Scavier would know how to best compromise between vintage and modern. If you look upthread you can see I said the same thing - a mixed vintage/modern design would probably be too strange.
I do think the car would best go in the LRF class.
The leaf spring comment was sorta tongue in cheek. The corvettes still use leaf springs. Point being that you can still get the muscle car character almost anywhere in the range of old and new, and better or worse performing mechanical parts of muscle cars.
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I don't think it'd happen.. But that'd be really cool. Maybe a bit further down the curve of Moore's law.
It only works if you bought the game.
Flags on race cars, country plates on road cars..
He might've posted that reply while reading the start of the thread.
You mean like leaf springs?
You mean like leaf springs?
The character of each car is what made all cars what they are. It's not about badging or being american specificaly. E.g. Weismann's German roadsters being arguably more British than some British roadsters.
An AMC for LFS could just as well be a completely made up US/Aussie hybrid, modern muscle car. IMO they could definitely fit into the LRF class something like a retro styled Mustang or Charger with modern independent suspension that's as much less good than the rest of the LRF class' handling, as the AMC's fire breathing engine would be better. And I have managed to get some pretty decent NA V8 sounds out of the LFS sound engine; so if I can do it, Scawen or Eric certainly can.
An AMC for LFS could just as well be a completely made up US/Aussie hybrid, modern muscle car. IMO they could definitely fit into the LRF class something like a retro styled Mustang or Charger with modern independent suspension that's as much less good than the rest of the LRF class' handling, as the AMC's fire breathing engine would be better. And I have managed to get some pretty decent NA V8 sounds out of the LFS sound engine; so if I can do it, Scawen or Eric certainly can.
Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."
Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."
Churchill: "Nancy, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."
No, I haven't. But the evidence is pretty obvious. At the very least, there's a mistaken assumption that american muscle cars are disqualified from fun/competitiveness in a setting such as LFS because of their handling. It doesn't have to be that way... The borderline case would be a pretty vintage model (big engine, boat handling) but with aftermarket parts. That would skirt the standard of 'stock' road cars in LFS so far, but it would be fun enough and (if tweaked correctly) would probably fit very well with the LRF class. It wouldn't be completely un-authentic either, that sort of setup is what most hot-rodded factory cars/homebuilts are like.. You see them in the streets of the USA (tho less commonly nowadays) pretty regularly.
What I meant by what you quoted is that if we are getting only one car of this type (can't see any reason why we'd get more than one), and if it's going to be the only one for a while (same; there's lots of other types of cars just as worth having asap), then it has to be as good as it can be. "Good" in this case means some compromise between character (authentic = immersive), fun, good performance (e.g. not scattered over the laptime chart as e.g. here), and doesn't cater to a smaller (hardcore) rather than bigger (casual, not particularily enthusiast motorsports fans/games) slice of LFS players (current and potential).
For those reasons, I made the case that such a car ought to be a synthesis of old and new as you can read above...
What I meant by what you quoted is that if we are getting only one car of this type (can't see any reason why we'd get more than one), and if it's going to be the only one for a while (same; there's lots of other types of cars just as worth having asap), then it has to be as good as it can be. "Good" in this case means some compromise between character (authentic = immersive), fun, good performance (e.g. not scattered over the laptime chart as e.g. here), and doesn't cater to a smaller (hardcore) rather than bigger (casual, not particularily enthusiast motorsports fans/games) slice of LFS players (current and potential).
For those reasons, I made the case that such a car ought to be a synthesis of old and new as you can read above...
Well yeah, in that formula race car.. I mean for the road cars and a GTR model (it would suck to get such a road car but not a beastly GTR version!).
I agree that not everyone has to use it, but that also means there'd be that much less potential users added to LFS. I can't see a good enough reason to risk that for the benefit of niche players like you and me. I think we can be satisfied enough with a modern retro-styled and more capable suspension muscle car, and every other player can cut their teeth on such a beginner model. It would still shred tires and breathe fire and (Scawen allowing :P) would sound the part too, which is most of what we're after.
My alcohol fueled 2c (been a rough month at work)..
I agree that not everyone has to use it, but that also means there'd be that much less potential users added to LFS. I can't see a good enough reason to risk that for the benefit of niche players like you and me. I think we can be satisfied enough with a modern retro-styled and more capable suspension muscle car, and every other player can cut their teeth on such a beginner model. It would still shred tires and breathe fire and (Scawen allowing :P) would sound the part too, which is most of what we're after.
My alcohol fueled 2c (been a rough month at work)..
I just think it'd be too much of a culture shock. I think if Scavier will have to come up with yet another frankenstein (in the nicest way) synthesis of all cars of the type to make LFS' rendition of its archetype.. Then they ought to pick the best parts. That is, something that's less well handling than the cars common pretty much everywhere else on the planet, on paper, but still is a blast to ride.. As is characteristic of the real muscle cars. Idem for the rest of the characteristics such as engine character etc.. Something that has none of the european or asian cute body curves.. I think the current Mustang (and maybe a few others) retro is a great example of compromise between vintage and modern bodywork. It certainly would be a great (the best imo) opportunity to have a kick-your-ass bodywork design added to LFS' carset.
Vintage cars certainly did that, arguably, the best of all. But I just think it would be too much of a shock for most players to get such a difficult horse to tame (tho all of the LRF already is so), and putting a completely vintage bodywork on a modern chassis would be too strange.
So yeah we need the whole gamut.. But I'm saying this because one has to be first.. Priority should go to the one that'd please LFS players the most. Such a model improvised from the best traits of all muscle cars (rather than sticking to a narrow period/model range) also gives Scavier the best opportunity to flex their car design muscle.
It's really about satisfying a particular staple of motorsports, the same way the mini and Porsche and caterham, etc, all were.
... An off the wall idea.. The Alfa Romeo 8C could probably be a valid alternative to an American/Aussie muscle car.. Though it would 'cannibalize' on the appeal of including a typical italian exotic (or something typicaly italian) and on the appeal of typical US/AU muscle car's handling character.. And LFS would really benefit from that ANyway I don't think Scavier would go for copying just one car unless it had really made its niche, made its path for a long long time in motorsports, like the 911 did. The 8C's probably not going to be around much longer than e.g. the Testarossa. Whereas the 911, muscle cars, or caterham-like designs have and will for some time yet.
Anyway.. One way or another, LFS has yet to get a big meaty engine. Offsetting such an engine would most naturaly be by handicapping handling performance, which is as good as saying "muscle car". There.. now we're back to square one
Vintage cars certainly did that, arguably, the best of all. But I just think it would be too much of a shock for most players to get such a difficult horse to tame (tho all of the LRF already is so), and putting a completely vintage bodywork on a modern chassis would be too strange.
So yeah we need the whole gamut.. But I'm saying this because one has to be first.. Priority should go to the one that'd please LFS players the most. Such a model improvised from the best traits of all muscle cars (rather than sticking to a narrow period/model range) also gives Scavier the best opportunity to flex their car design muscle.
It's really about satisfying a particular staple of motorsports, the same way the mini and Porsche and caterham, etc, all were.... An off the wall idea.. The Alfa Romeo 8C could probably be a valid alternative to an American/Aussie muscle car.. Though it would 'cannibalize' on the appeal of including a typical italian exotic (or something typicaly italian) and on the appeal of typical US/AU muscle car's handling character.. And LFS would really benefit from that
ANyway I don't think Scavier would go for copying just one car unless it had really made its niche, made its path for a long long time in motorsports, like the 911 did. The 8C's probably not going to be around much longer than e.g. the Testarossa. Whereas the 911, muscle cars, or caterham-like designs have and will for some time yet.Anyway.. One way or another, LFS has yet to get a big meaty engine. Offsetting such an engine would most naturaly be by handicapping handling performance, which is as good as saying "muscle car". There.. now we're back to square one
Last edited by Breizh, .
I don't think a completely vintage muscle car would be what's best for LFS. At least not as the first muscle car type of model. The present retro US cars or maybe modern Aussie muscle cars would probably be characteristic enough. One to fit in the LRF class would be the best, I think.
You're biased and it shows. I reckon the early RX7 rotaries match or beat today's Kwak 1400 engine. The only good applications for bike engines in cars are in the ultra light customs or smart-car franken builds.
The rotary hasn't gotten piston engines' development time, period. Only today, after so many man-hours, has the piston configuration gotten to the point where it is, in production and at the leading edge experimental set ups.
The rotary hasn't gotten piston engines' development time, period. Only today, after so many man-hours, has the piston configuration gotten to the point where it is, in production and at the leading edge experimental set ups.
They probably had more important things to take care of in the short time they had before the convention.
Actualy that would be cool, having your country shown by the license plate, and as a flag on race models.
Is that the reality of the mass produced rotary engine? Accounting for the disproportionate development time that the piston configuration has had, compared to the rotary.
I mean the first exact copy of a real car that's common enough. Barely anyone coming to LFS out of the blue will have heard of the RAC or MRT, and BFM to a somewhat lesser degree. The BFM and BF1 are as real as anyone's first hand experience of it..
What's left? The FZ is some iteration of the 911, obviously enough. But it's only functionaly reproduced. Same with the LXs, F08, FOX.. it's all downhill from there as far as exact reproduction of real models is concerned. You don't get the bodywork or inside ergonomics, not the badge and brand signatures.. All that plays at least a small part for the more (physics/mechanics of racing) hardcore of us, and a really big part for the eye candy/authenticity immersion addicts.
Not that this is bad, I think it's great news. It's really cool that LFS gets more publicity and gets to attract some more players with an actual real car that's in production and making news today. I just think it's unfortunate that it's yet another 4-cylinder FWD machine, that's really barely different from the FXO, relatively to the rest of the carset. An RWD or AWD GTR version for the small GTR class would be cool, but would VW allow it? Putting it in the big GTR class would make it redundant with either the FXR or XRR, as far as I can tell.
As far as the car itself is concerned.. The only thing I'm sorta dreading is that the engine sound mismatches the real car's by too much.
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There's a pretty thick line of healthy cohabitation between drift/cruise/race.. There's no good reason for it to be as hard to walk it as so many whiners and flamers seem so bent on pretending.
So where's the 1.3L piston analog to the Renesis or whatever?
Not replying to you specificaly... But ugh.. A new car, that's also the first real car.. Yet another 4 banger econo-ish car. :| A rwd/awd version for the smaller GTR class would be ace, though.
Bob beat me to it..
The F1 analogy doesn't work. F1 cars' designs are hardly comparable to mass produced consumer cars.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG