Quote from Crommi :

I say it again, too much opposite lock.
Here's a hotlap I recorded today where I induced bit too much oversteer coming into last corner at 200km/h, it recovered just fine with some countersteering.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOL7qh5rop4&

Nice lap. But you didn't countersteer at all during that lap in my book. You had some corner entry oversteer into the final turn, but you left the steering alone and the front just washed itself out. Is that how I'm supposed to drive?! It doesn't bloody work like that IRL, you have to actually correct slides by actually turning the wheel.

Anyway, you're missing the point. My point is the guy in the real car overcorrected just as I did, but his car didn't snap from side to side within 0.00001 seconds!!, like it did to me in iRacing! IT'S NOT RIGHT.

Edit: Gah, new page again, here's the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7T3WzOSck

Edit2:

Quote from spanks :

The steering sensitivity at center in the mazda I think is too high in iracing.

Understatement of the centuary. Well actually it's not the steering, it's the whole car. It's the most sensitive thing I've ever driven in any sim ever.

Last edited by DaveWS, Thu, 16 Jul 2009 21:43.

Quote from Scrabby :

but didn't they had TC back then with the F1's? Dunno if that makes any difference but hey....

That should only affect situations where rear traction for power is an issue.

I've made my 354th video comparison now, enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7T3WzOSck

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

... Mild hyperbole perhaps, but real life(tm) is really not as forgiving as LFS, fact is it's closer to what iRacing does to you. I'm not saying it's 100% correct, but I suspect it's closer to being empirically correct, especially the solstice. I don't have experience in a downforce car so I can't really speak as much to that. - F1 thrashing not withstanding. I'd like to hear Tristan's comment on the replay Dave posted.

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGrqebP-xGU

Looks like much harder work than in LFS.

I also think, by the way, that comparing the two sims in terms of drivability is tough with LFS's setup issues and ridiculous variability of parameters. I wish we could use LFS's model using the same car on an iRacing track, at least that would reveal some things.

I agree with you that LFS is probably more forgiving than real life, and I have driven a TKM in anger around Whilton Mill before, so I have a small idea of what RL is actually like, but the FO8 which I used in my comparison test is probably one of the least forgiving cars in LFS.

As I said before, I adjusted everything on the FO8 to make it very very similar to iRacing's Mazda, so IMO it's a reasonably good comparison. In the video, the way the FO8 is sliding about looks very comparable to Alonso in his renault, but certainly not like iRacing.

I reckon RL is somewhere between the 2 sims if I'm honest.

Quote from titanLS :

Dave, and everyone, I'm curious as to your thoughts about induced understeer in iracing to correct oversteer

I have done it in iRacing in extreme situations, but normally I prefer to balance the car through countersteering, but it certainly seems less effective (edit: countersteering that is) a style in iRacing..

Last edited by DaveWS, Thu, 16 Jul 2009 20:36.

BBT: In the test I did with LFS, I was using a setup to make the FO8 as similar to the Mazda as possible, i.e. OPEN DIFF , stiffer rear springs than default, lower wings, and finally, enough intake restriction to bring it down to 260hp (the Mazda has 240). I was able to throw it around as much as Alonso.

All cars in iRacing are OK to drift about as long as you don't get the weight transferring from one side of the car to the other. It's only that part I find rediculous.

Edit: I'd say an F1 car would be harder to do what Alonso was doing than in a Mazda, F1 cars are very aero dependant, stiffly sprung, very sticky tyres, etc etc.

Last edited by DaveWS, Thu, 16 Jul 2009 16:42.

Thanks for those videos, I wish iRacing felt like that looks.

I'm getting a typical response in the iRacing forum: "You're doing it wrong, you can't do it like that, Alonso was doing it differently" etc etc etc.

More tests, another post, sorry. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETzi0XO6pu4

Quoted from youtube description: I've decided to compare 2 sims, LFS and iRacing, directly with a real life equivelent. While both sims each have their own different physics flaws, this test is focused on how to me, iRacing feels unrealistically out of control the minute the cars start to fishtail, especially in the formula Mazda.

The RL video is the best I could find, showing Alonso in 2006 throwing his car around at high speed (120+ mph I'd guess) in celebration upon winning in Japan.

The LFS footage is of me driving with a formula V8, running a setup with intake restriction to bring the power down to 260hp, similar to iRacing's formula Mazda's 240, with similar wing and suspension settings, and an open differential.

The iRacing video shows 2 replays, the first running with the advanced Laguna set, and the second with the basic Laguna set.

I tried to carry out the tests on areas where the track had no bumps or sudden elevations to influence the outcome.

You'll notice in the RL clip that Alonso is not worried about losing control of the car, and seems very comfortable throwing the car around violently. The car does not spear off the road into the gravel trap.
In the LFS replay, things look very similar. I'm able to throw the car around quite violently, and, so long as I'm paying attention, I can keep it out of the wall, although I came very close to losing it during one of the final slides, but it's not supposed to be easy.
Finally the iRacing footage shows that as soon the weight starts to transfer across, it happens with such violence and speed, that I am completely unable to save the car, on both occasions with each setup.

Surely if iRacing were completely accurate, Alonso wouldn't have dared to try throwing the car about at high speed for fear of killing 100 people?

I'm not sure what causes this problem in iRacing, whether its a tyre issue, or something else, who knows, but it's not right IMO.

Quote from spanks :

In both videos its pretty clear that you overcorrected violently and the car followed.
...
Like it was said in your thread, the car is well known to be aweful over 80% of curbs..just steer clear of them.

I will do in the future, that is until the physics are looking at, as I'm still adament that if it were RL, it would have been a brown pants moment, but I reckon I'd still be travelling forwards on the track.

Quote from jasonmatthews :

TBH Dave I agree with you. The physics in iracing don't feel right at all to me, and also to alot of my teammates. I know that you are a great racer, so if you are saying it feels wrong, then compared to alot of the commentators, I would trust your own judgement.

I have said it many times, but I can learn how to drive iracing, but it means I have to learn to play a game, rather than doing what comes naturally, which is what a sim should be about...

I think iracing is a HUGE leap forward in many ways, the tracks are just awesome, the FFB is incredible, god I wish LFS had the same bumps and detail, but sadly the physics in iracing just feel wrong to me... Shite, if real cars acted the way they do in iracing, 50% of the worlds population would be dead now

I couldn't have put it better myself. As you say, driving in iRacing should come naturally, but it doesn't. I feel like I have to learn bad habits that just wouldn't work IRL in order to stay on track in the sim. I get the feeling that's why I'm struggling to find the last couple of tenths per lap on the likes of Volker / Greger / Richard, because my driving style can only find me so much time before I have to start employ unrealistic techniques.

I also totally agree with you about the positives. The tracks in iRacing are without doubt, awesome, and it's one of the reason I bought a years subscription.

Quote from Crommi :

Initial oversteer caused from clipping the curb was only a small drift, possible to recover with very small flick of opposite lock, something like 10 degrees or even center and back. If you take a look at your replay in slow motion, your steering input peaks at almost 130 degrees of opposite lock which is way too much for so small slide.

I'm not trying to bash you, I struggled with same problem when I did the transistion from Skippy to Mazda. Not only this car has very grippy tires, it also has way faster steering and you can cut the steering work into half, especially for corrections. Curbs are still quite deadly unless you're comfortable with riding a higher suspension setup and soft ARB at rear, but it does make car feel little numb.

I don't really think any human being on the planet could have recovered from that situation after it started to go wrong, you can analyse and say I overcorrected or reacted 0.05 seconds late etc, but unless I was able to slow down time, I don't think I could have reacted better TBH.

As I've send to spanks, thanks for the advice, I'll just have to learn to adjust my style a little and avoid the curbs at all costs in the future. I did try a more forgiving setup, but the gains on a fraction more stability weren't worth the impact in handling IMO. I do appreciate you guys trying to help though.

Quote from jasonmatthews :

OK, besides the curbs, can someone explain to me why in every car in iracing, if you release the throttle, on a corner, or whenever, under braking, your car spins out?

Now I am sure, in real life, if you lift the throttle to change gear or brake, without giving it 30-40% throttle, your car doesn't suddenly go into physics meltdown and spin out?

Is this an iracing thing, because I have never seen or felt this in any other sim except gpl, or in real life... I am more than happy to accept that I am completley wrong here, but I don't want to learn a skill in iracing that is nothing like real life, it could kill me one day

Can someone who has driven any of these cars for real, please confirm that if you lift the throttle to < 30%, your car will go into uncontrollerable meltdown.... Even when you are braking for a bloody corner

You HAVE to always have a certain amount of throttle in iracing, ala trailbraking, to even keep the cars under control. I am willing to accept that some cars, maybe the skippy, need this wierd kind of control, but I cannot see why every car in iracing exhibits this same behaviour?

Surely, each car should need different styles/methods, but it feels to me like that if I learn the iracing way for the skippy, then i'm good to go in any car in the game...

Maybe I am being pedantic, but I simply don't feel that what is going on, and what I am learning to play the game, would translate to real life....

Someone else has touched on this, but I'll reply anyway. Most of the road cars in iRacing use an open diff, which explains the behaviour to a certain extent, and it is especially bad in the SRF, but I agree, the total loss of rear grip upon lifting the throttle feels very exaggurated, I know that if you use an open diff in LFS you experience a lot of lift off oversteer, but it's recoverable, and doesn't need 3/4 throttle under braking... Fortunately it's nowhere near as bad in the Mazda, but as I've said, that has it's own issues.

Quote :

you don't have time for recovery once it grips.

But my main point is that you SHOULD be able to recover from a situation like that. It's not meant to be easy, but anyone with decent car control would be able to cope with that in the equivelent car IRL, IMO.

Quote from Crommi :

Your car also looked quite nervous through those corners, Mazda should be rock solid through T4 even with cold tires but you had a nasty oversteer moment there under full throttle. Same kind of drama in T3 too, although it looked like car didn't want to turn in at first. I'd take a look at tweaking setup, oversteery behavior could get worse over race distance once car gets lighter.

I guess I could alter the set a little, but that's how I like my cars to feel, in any sim. I like it to be balanced, maybe even slightly oversteer biased, rather than understeery. I can cope with correcting oversteer in the Mazda except in situations where the oversteer undergoes a sudden transition in direction. I will have to alter my set though a little, but the fact remains, somethings not right with the physics.

Edit: I'm quite suprised at the general reaction to my replay so far. I was expecting a lot of people to agree that there actually is something that's not right about the physics somehow. I mean, I'll freely admit LFS has it's problems in the physics department. I'm not singleing you out Crommi, but some of the iRacing fanboyism is stupid.

Last edited by DaveWS, Wed, 15 Jul 2009 23:44.

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

Can't really tell from the vid, did you bottom it on that kerb? Crash physics are amazingly realistic

No I didn't bottom it on the curb. Nor did I lose much or any traction. I barely even touched the curb, it just intiated the oversteer to the left, which I corrected, and upon doing so, the oversteer transitioned to the right with rediculous violence. It's the complete opposite of what you'd get in LFS, where transitions are pretty gradual.

Another Mazda race thoroughly ruined by the bizarre snap oversteer behaviour the car has. It's definately not right, and my iRating and SR are taking big hits because of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akwmOjTzc_k

I've posted a thread with a replay over at the iRacing forums.

http://members.iracing.com/iforum/thread.jspa?threadID=42563

Quote from StableX :

Where does the no budget come from? They've made good money from LFS. How do you think they managed to include a car stereo in the FXR?

LOL. Well, no real money has been spent on developing the sounds.

Quote from Gills4life :

If they do use the sample based technique then they must have loads and loads of recordings for each car. I never notice any looping in the sounds no matter how long I stay at a certain rpm. Maybe they record the sound at every 50-100rpm or so. With the amount of people they have working on it I am sure that it wouldn't take too long. In rfactor they usually record large chunks of the engine sound which fade in and out, so when you stay at a certain rpm, you can hear it looping very noticeably. Hopefully the Lotus sounds are still being worked on and what has been shown in previews is not the final product. From that preview it doesn't even sound like that car at any rpm. It sounds like a radical or some kind of bike.

You struggle to hear the loops of the samples in iRacing simply because they are able to record the engine at a consistant rpm level, but trust me, they use samples. The loops are noticable in rFactor because normally the original sample has to be edited to flatten the pitch and then added to a reversed copy and looped, which the ear can detect if not done very well.

I reckon you're right about them having many many samples though for each car, although it doesn't seem to be the case with the Lotus. :/

I think most of the cars in iRacing sound pretty good, but as many are saying, they haven't captured some of the meaty rawness you'd expect from some of them.

@titanLS: Thanks for the tip with the Mazda, I'll try it out, but I'd expect to sacrifise a LOT of turn in with no rear ARB.

iRacing does loop samples from real recordings BTW, just like rFactor. The difference is they are much more able to get their own top quality recordings with the extra manpower and budget they have. I'm pretty sure they use many more samples than rFactor as well, i.e. a sample for each 25% of throttle or so I guess. They've nailed it pretty well with the SRF, which sounds like a proper engine along with all the different tones and extra sounds you get with different loading and throttle level. However with the Lotus, it sounds like they've only been able to take a few recordings of the engine, away from the track and probably out of the car, and then botched the samples with an audio editor to simulate the note for off throttle / load sounds etc. It definately needs work, and sounds (pun? :razz rushed.

Edit: Listening to it again, I honestly think they've only recorded one sample only for the top 2-3000 rpm of the engine, at full throttle only. It doesn't sound like they've recorded an applied load driving the engine at high rpm while completely off throttle... At all...

Edit2: It's bloody frustrating sometimes, a whole team of professional guys supposedly work on the sound for iRacing, and they have everything available to them. Meanwhile LFS has no budget, nothing available, and is able to produce a synthesized sound to an OK level without any real life samples...

Last edited by DaveWS, Wed, 15 Jul 2009 12:21.

Guess you didn't read my post previous to yours then.

Quote from Storm_Cloud :

Don't see the problem to be honest. Of course it's unlucky to get hit like that but the distance and damage don't look particularly different to that one might expect in real life.

Yeah I guess it looks OK. But I was very pissed off at the time I made the post etc. I reckon the grass would have a little more grip than that though IRL. I also reckon the driver behind would have suffered a front wing loss, and my suspension wouldn't have botched the camber so aggressively. But there are many other situations that arise in iRacing where collision physics etc are definately to blame.

Still, I'd have been fine if there was no contact, I hadn't lost the car completely. Something definately doesn't feel right regarding how the car snaps from sliding way to the other so violently. I've never seen or driven any car like that IRL. TBH I reckon the real thing feels somewhere between LFS and iRacing...

It sucks that we haven't had any major core changes / improvements for a while being offered so much (expensive) extra content.

Quote :

Love the chat box

Hehe, thought someone would notice.

Quote :

It also looked entirely your fault

I don't agree there. It's an unfortunate racing incident, but the guy behind is reponsible for crashes 99% of the time.

Edit: I get the feeling from the video that the lotus is going to suffer even more from the snappy weight transfer syndrome the Mazda suffers from...

Last edited by DaveWS, Wed, 15 Jul 2009 00:29.

Quote from bose321 :

mosquito's.
Finally sleeping, and then at 4 o'clock i hear that f**king annoying buzzing noise. It just makes me so mad! Then i turn on the lights, and i see no mosquito. Turn lights off, and 2 minutes later i hear it again, just grinds my ears.
If i see the mosquito i'd torture it.

+1

At times I think why the hell did I bother spending a fortune on iRacing, after the last 2 shocking races I've had. The one I've had just now in the F Mazda just takes the ****ing biscuit.

Basically I'm driving in my first ever Mazda race, and it's lap 22 (iirc), and I've been leading for the whole race. In the slower middle section of the lap, I get a bit of a tailslapper developing (the way this car snaps about is just wrong btw), which I recover from but obviously lose time in. However, moments later I'm struggling again to put the power down, and the guy behind can't react fast enough and wacks me from behind. The collision system (which is ****ing worse than LFS!) then sends me 3 light years off the track, with collossal damage. I wasn't sure if iRacing repairs your car in the pits, but I knew a 5th place or so would be better than a DSC regarding iRating etc. So anyway I try and get back to the pits, but the car is ****ed, and sends me into multple more spins, and to top it off, my car did not get repaired so I had to spectate after all that. God I'm pissed right now.

I stuck it on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLMOswWxbuI

Quote from tristancliffe :

The best drivers in the world, for the last 100 years, have been using opposite lock. I don't see any reason to do differently.

Watch Jarno Trulli onboard some of his laps, he uses subtle induced understeer quite a lot, and Anthony Davidson was discussing it during free practice at a race this season. No, sorry I don't have any links etc.

Edit: By no means does any quick driver not use opposite lock though, but it depends on the circumstance.

I've just had my best race so far in iRacing without a doubt. Basically in the Skippy at Summit, I was placed into a very strong grid, with Aranha and Hohenauer both qualifying a few tenths in front of me. I had a poor start, and spent the first few corners trying to maintain my 3rd position, which I did so. Then I worked about getting back onto the leaders tails while they were fighting with each other. During the next lap or 2, I managed to pass up into 1st place, and well, basically for the entire race I found myself defending continuously for the entire remainder of the race. Anyway, if anyone fancies a watch, I've stuck it on mediafire. I could make a quick vid, but the whole race was intense enough so the replay makes more sense.

http://www.mediafire.com/?2yomm0mjljr

I use it to warm the fronts if the rears are becoming much hotter.

The SRF and Skip Barber both use an open differential, so with that comes the horrible entry oversteer and on power push you would normally get. It seems less of a problem on the Skippy though, but both cars would handle so much better with an LSD.

Righto:
LFSW name - DaveWS
In-Game name - 3id D.Williams
Team name - My3id Gaming

I heard about this - http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=58995 - No TC BF1 league the other day, could be interesting.

Edit:

Last edited by DaveWS, Sun, 12 Jul 2009 17:19.

Heikki didn't do half as well as it looks. He got lucky in Q2, and he qualified 1.2 seconds behind Hamilton in Q3.

Just noticed this, sounds like fun, any news?