Many of us have experienced this on my server since patch X too.

Quote from arco :

When I was that age I used to collect empty soda and beer bottles (especially around party places the day after a party), and delivering them to a store for deposit money.

When I was that age I used to steal pornography from the local newsagent and sell them at school for double the cover price lol.

That's not a suggestion. Eventually I got caught by a shop owner but fortunately for me I was a pretty fast runner at that age.

Quote from Nobo :

Nice judicial videos! Every well known league should do that
You really take a lot of effort there!

Cheers mate. Maybe you will join us sometime

Quote from Dru :

LOL

you are a talented man if you can read someones mind GF, thats what my point was about, certain people you can trust, others you can not......yet.

maybe it will take 2-3 races to actually know which cars you can pass safely and others you need to take 'additional' care with..

like i said in the post, the main problem i have is coming up to a fox, slowing down to along side them to pass them 'safely' and they just don't give a cars width to go through.

Like i said i could understnd if if i was on full powerand came up and tried to pass without lifting when the car in front is commited to a corner, but since that i was lifting to the same pace as the FOX and making a geniune 'pass' meaning alongside, i still feel that at least a car's width should be left....

but heck not everyones race craft is up there yet... like i mentioned hopefully after a few rounds the situation will be completely gone

The judicial process will make all things become clear in time. Soon we will have a set of case law to refer to. At the moment it is hard to discuss such things because there are such a variety of situations.

I think it may be helpful to refer to these rules at this point.

2.1 Always avoid contact with another driver and give him room. Never move off the racing line if it will result in contact.
2.2 If you attempt a pass on another driver, give him opportunity to see you coming and ensure you have adequate overlap.
2.3 If a driver attempts a pass on you and has sufficient overlap you must leave space for them at the apex.

The above rules apply to both FOXs and FO8s so if a FOX turns in on you and doesn't leave space at the apex when you have sufficient overlap then the FOX is at fault.

If the FO8 fails to stay tight to the apex and contact is made then it would be the FO8s fault. See http://www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/gfcjudicialvideo.html - the example entitled Lap 82 Celtic100, The End is a perfect example of this.

Specific Rules For FO8s

2.11 Making contact with a FOX while passing or lapping is absolutely unacceptable and will be met with stiff penalties.

Specific Rules For FOXs

2.12 Making any attempt to block the path of a lapping FO8 is absolutely unacceptable and will be met with stiff penalties.

These words have been chosen carefully so please, read these rules carefully too.

The FOXs really don't cause too many problems in my view. FO8s are taking a risk by passing them in any corner. A risk which I view as unnesesary because they have the power to blast past at the next straight instead.

If an FO8 follows a FOX into the final chicane and the FOX is on the right hand side ready to turn in, then the FO8 should only make a pass there if they can get fully past before the 1st apex on the left kerb. The FOXs only have one line throught that corner. They can't be expected to delay their turn in to let an FO8 past because they simply won't make it through the chicane without virtually stopping.

In addition, if you are in an FO8 and you have a FOX in front of you then either you are incredibly slow, you started the race late, or you are recovering from an accident. For this reason the FOX deserves the utmost respect from you. They are ahead of you on the track and they only have half the power you have!

In addition, sometimes FO8s come up on FOXs so fast that they don't see them coming. FO8s should remember this. I nearly turned in on one cos I just didn't know he was there.

FOXs should be reminded that they should make it easy for FO8s to pass too. It's up to you whether you leave the door open for the FO8s at corner entry. FO8s remember that a FOX at a normal turn in point may look to you like they are leaving the door open but they may not be. If you go for the pass you may find them shut the door because they were expecting you to wait for the straight.

At the end of the day we have to almost read it others minds. That is why this form of racing is so challenging and satisfying.

Quote from X-Ter :

Doesn't all this come down to what rules are specified in the league, the series, on the server etc? You can argue this all you like but if a league has it specified in the rules that the inside car (if alongside in the corner) has the right to the corner exit as well, then you play by those rules and like or stay the heck out.

Take a look at DTM. Wonderfull example of high speed, on the edge racing. I have yet to see a penalty given out to anyone on the indside who also claims the right to the corner exit. Even if there's a concrete wall on the outside. In addition to this, there is also a rule that say that if you have opened the door enough for someone to stick their nose on the inside, you can not close that door, cause the inevitable crash that follows will be your fault.

That rule is in effect in F1, DTM, WTCC, well... just about any racing on the planet. And let's face it... If more people followed that rule, almost half the incidents would be eliminated. And if people also follwed the turn exit rule, about 80% of all incidents would be gone. And if people also tried to use the "gentlemens/womens rule of conduct" on track, almost 95% of all crashes would be gone. The last five % would be caused by wreckers who don't belong on a track anyway...

Basically, what I am saying is:
Take a good look at the rules stated before you enter a league, a series or even a pick up race server. Be gentle and use your head. Simple really

Nice post. On my server we run dual class FOX and FO8 and so the rules are very specific to my server. The welcome message states the rules are available on the web but I know people don't read them - even some of the people entered in the league. I can tell by the conversations they have.

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who visited the server last night. The standard of driving was excellent for a public server even when we had 20 cars on the grid. FO8 drivers, even randoms, were very well behaved and FOXs and FO8s could enjoy the racing equally.

I had the best fun I've had on a public server in a very long time. I felt really proud that we've achieved something a bit different from all the other servers.

I stopped going to Le Mans in 2004 when the first diesel appeared. I blame Callum Lochie - drove the first one. He should have refused.

Only joking Callum - love your track days

I actually closed my server down for 20 minutes just after X was released. 30 FO8s on a dual class server meant that it was impossible for FOXs to race.

First time I've had to take such drastic measures.

If I come up behind a slower racer one of the things I find most satisfying is sitting there close behind him knowing the affect it is having on the pressure the guy feels. I'm fully aware that if I can follow him closely, have little 'looks' at passes, and then finally make a clean pass when the time is right, the guy in front will respect me for it.

This is my aim in LFS. I don't care about WRs or league titles. All I care about is my reputation within the LFS community. So long as people know they can race with my wheel to wheel and trust me I have achieved my aim. This results in the most enjoyable, realistic racing experience one can get from this wonderful SIM and public servers would be wonderful, friendly places to visit if everyone shared this objective.

Interestingly enough we've just introduced a 'no passing under yellow' rule in the GFC to help with these kinds of situations.

It's sad but true what Sinbad says - lift and get taken out from behind.

I think nothing will ever change on the public servers accept maybe those that are populated by team members or league racers.

Quote from Jakg :

I thought LFS had too much grip atm - i mean 1.2 G on cheap-o road_normals?

I get 1.2G peak in my road car. That's about right. The peak doesn't mean you have grip at that moment. You can generate these big peaks by throwing it into a roundabout and lifting.

Quote from ethan520 :

Is it faster to create a light car with a small engine or a heavy car with a huge engine?

Colin Chapman once said "add lightness, reduce complexity"

Weight is the enemy in racing.

Quote from 11SuLLy11 :

I'd like to take part if any spaces are left,fee free to check my stats

Sure mate - sign up on the forum and I'll add ya. There are still reserve places left.

www.gentlefoot.com/LFS/forum

Quote from eL_KeCks :

If this size is ok for you, than you can have my good old 993

That's a little beauty!!

Best thing to do is hook up with a group of tight knit racers that you know you can trust. I always tend to race with people I know on the GFC server. And then when other people join, they see that we are all driving properly they tend to do the same. If not they get kicked.

Quote from STROBE :

Agreed, but I thought this was more about those who attempt a pass on the inside, then run the outside car off the road on the exit of the corner, not those trying to pass around the outside.

Unless I've got it horribly wrong.

Assuming I haven't, regarding the junk being spewed forth by the "karters" / those defending running other cars off the road, I beg the question: when you put yourself down the inside under braking and achieve significant overlap, do you expect the other car to turn in on you? After all, they have the line for the corner, right? If you answer "no", then may I point out that it's no different to what you do to others on the exit of the corner. If the defending car can make space for you on the apex of the corner, and the defending car manages to maintain some overlap around the outside of the corner, then you can make space for them on the outside.

It'd be different on a league server where the racing is more competitive and you can guarantee the skill of the other drivers, but on a public server with pick-up short races where the emphasis is on having an enjoyable race and the quality of drivers varies, the kind of driving being proposed by ayrton and alan is just plain rude and dirty, imho.

Good points there. The thing about real life racing is that if someone 'shuts the door' on someone who is attempting to stick it down the inside, whether they have adequate overlap or not (level before the apex), if contact is made it's usually the outside car that bounces off the outside of the track and into the tyres or whatever. In LFS however, this doesn't always seem to be the case and contact often results in both cars spinning wildly.

I think that is part of the reason there are more problems with this in LFS than real life racing.

Sure, if the driver sticking it down the inside doesn't have overlap you are within your rights to 'slam the door' but if contact is made you will probably lose time and maybe positions anyway so to me doesn't make sense.

The way I approach it is this. If they've got down the inside of me I won't slam the door (unless I don't know they are there). Instead I will tuck in behind them and attempt a pass at the next available opportunity.

Quote from MyBoss :

But the thing is that these people seem to push people off the track no matter if the other car is slightly infront on the exit or is just a bit behind.

If someone is slightly in front of you, they do not change their line or speed and you hit them then the collision is clearly your fault.

If they are slightly in front of you and then they suddenly change direction and you have no time to react and contact occurs then it is their fault for driving in a dangerous manner (swerving).

On the other hand, if they brake earlier for a corner than you are expecting and they have not changed their position on track then it is your fault for not giving yourself enough room to allow for such things.

Ofcourse blocking is allowed. Say you come off a corner together and you are behind. You go for the inside line but the driver in front moves slowly across to cover you and this forces you down the outside, this is fine.

If on the other hand they don't notice you going down the inside until the last moment and then suddenly swerve to block you and this results in contact then I would consider this dangerous driving also and not a fair block. To swerve back the other way and block again afterwards is a definate no no.

Blocking should be done in such a way as to not cause contact. If a driver is already up to your rear wheel then you've missed the chance to block and have to accept that they have that track position.

Quote from MyBoss :

My question really is this: Do the general person in here think that this is right, that if you are so unlucky to be on the outside you have to expect to be blown off the track?

Depends how it's done.

If you are trying to pass someone around the outside of a bend at the exit and you have not made it fully alongside them then that person is quite within their rights to use all of the track they need for the exit. This is the normal racing line. This is know as a 'squeeze'. A sensible driver who is being squeezed should back off to avoid an accident.

If on the other hand the car trying to pass on the outside at exit gets fully alongside and the driver moves over and makes contact or forces them onto the grass this is known as 'side swiping' and is considered dangerous driving in real world motorsport so you shouldn't do it in LFS either.

Can someone buy me a Porsche 993 please? I want a flat 6 boxer engine but my parents won't buy it for me even though I told them how good they are. I have a Honda Civic 1.5 V-TEC-E at the moment but it just doesn't have the features of the 993.

Quote from sinkoman :

Well, I know the fox FAIRLY well, as I pop into the RedLine Racing servers fairly often, but I don't know if i'd be confident enough with it to prevent a crash online (i'd be terrified of crashing in a league race, would be so embarrassing if you took somebody else out).

I'll sign up though, get some laps in this week, see how things go

I'm not too sure i'm good enough for the Rookie class even

My fastest lap so far on AS Historic, FOX, on about 13 litres of fuel, is around 2:35.5 ish, and I know that's at least 11 seconds off of the world record

Lets try and get online on the server on Saturday sometime mate. I'll give you a setup and show you the lines, explain the rules. So long as you are careful (sounds like you will be) it doesn't matter how slow you are.

Quote from _rod_ :

Didnt even tried it yet,i was out the whole afternoon, but for some odd reason now i can connect just fine.

Count me in for the GFC

Aah - great news! Lets hope the problem doesn't suddenly start again.

Quote from _rod_ :

odd, exacly samething happened to me.

IP info help at all?

Quote from nigelpm :

FWIW, I really like the points system.

It gives equal chance to beginners willing to put the commitment in, as faster drivers who mightn't turn up for every event.

I think GF should be praised for having the kudos to try something a bit different. It might not work but as he says it can be reviewed at the end of the season.

A league isn't just about pace but commitment and stamina!

Thanks Nigel - a fellow FOX driver who likes the current system

The other interesting affect of this system is that if you are in a FOX and you do manage to win your class and get in front of an FO8 or two you get a bigger points advantage over the second place FOX.

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

It's strange because I was racing on your server the day X came out, and then the following day (and since then) I wasn't able to connect. Did you make any changes?

Really! That's very interesting. I did restart the server on the 2nd day after the X release and changed the name and the welcome message. But I also restarted it the evening X was released to increase the number of slots.

I will look into this.

GF