Well you still can gain position safely. And even some safe overtaking attempt can turn as carnage if the defending driver act as a tw*t.
In general I agree that some driver are pretty aggressive on start and cause some of the usual troubles. But that's not every driver that gained position that does it dangerously. Otherwise, need to bear in mind that last two races took place in two of the hardest venues of LFS (FE3 and BL1) and I haven't seen a race league start there without some troubles. That will probably be better at WE1 (hopefully).
@Cornys : Guess different ppl get different vision
I personally prefer stream 
In general I agree that some driver are pretty aggressive on start and cause some of the usual troubles. But that's not every driver that gained position that does it dangerously. Otherwise, need to bear in mind that last two races took place in two of the hardest venues of LFS (FE3 and BL1) and I haven't seen a race league start there without some troubles. That will probably be better at WE1 (hopefully).
@Cornys : Guess different ppl get different vision
I personally prefer stream
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
Well quite true Cornys but I disagree for the stream. As a racer and team member I'm more interesting about the racing than the stream. I rarely watch a stream from a race I'm not involved (racing or helping for set,...). In endurance racing stream is a good way to follow the race overall and keep updated to what's going on. On sprint racing I think it is just useful for people wanted to watch themselves driving and I have to admit that I usually watch a stream of a race I have attempted just for memories.
That's exactly the same thing as having a go pro in a racing car. Race driver like to see them driving even if they will be the only one to watch that video.
For another note, I miss GTAL & MoE
I have been nostalgic lately and read some old threads. Amazing to see that the two only surviving teams from MoE 09/10 are CoRe and Conquest (3id not being really involved in LFS) ! But on the other hand I think nowadays racing in LFS is clsoer. What is true is that there were a lot of promo video about the racing but have to see that LFS is closer to racing now. Teams are more focusing in to the racing and only few teams published a race edits. May have something to do with current LFS standing but still, there are plenty racer involve and talent to do some really interesting things. Stream constant improvement is one nice example.
That's exactly the same thing as having a go pro in a racing car. Race driver like to see them driving even if they will be the only one to watch that video.
For another note, I miss GTAL & MoE
I have been nostalgic lately and read some old threads. Amazing to see that the two only surviving teams from MoE 09/10 are CoRe and Conquest (3id not being really involved in LFS) ! But on the other hand I think nowadays racing in LFS is clsoer. What is true is that there were a lot of promo video about the racing but have to see that LFS is closer to racing now. Teams are more focusing in to the racing and only few teams published a race edits. May have something to do with current LFS standing but still, there are plenty racer involve and talent to do some really interesting things. Stream constant improvement is one nice example.
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
I think it's not about balance within GTR or NGT but between both. probably need to find a way to slow down NGT on straight and slow down GTR in corner.
Maybe try to add even more weight to GTR, give them more power ?
Maybe try to add even more weight to GTR, give them more power ?
didn't try UF4 actually did compare my XR laptime with UFR WR.
What I'm afraid is that actually GTR driver in order to pass NGT will have to outbrake them. In FE1 braking zone was really short so on really short track that could cause GTR driver to dive like retard NGT in order to pass them. Of course I agree that it should be confirmed or not by test racing but that's my worry for such a class with so different cars.
What I'm afraid is that actually GTR driver in order to pass NGT will have to outbrake them. In FE1 braking zone was really short so on really short track that could cause GTR driver to dive like retard NGT in order to pass them. Of course I agree that it should be confirmed or not by test racing but that's my worry for such a class with so different cars.
Interesting post 
Always good to know how car behaves in order to drive it more efficiently and to know what to modify when something is wrong !
If I can give my 2 cents.
Actually everything start from tyres. When you are setting the car, what you want is to use as best as possible the grip your tyres can provide. I'll stay on the basics as tyres is the most complex thing on a car.
Maximum Acceleration
Tyres provide maximum acceleration both longitudinal and lateral. However you can't achieve maximum longitudinal and lateral acceleration at the same time. When you are accelerating in both direction (i.e. braking while turning or accelerating into a corner) you are actually reducing the maximum amount of acceleration you can have both in longitudinal axis of your car and lateral axis.
Actually acceleration (and also Forces) that a tyre can provide looks like this diagramm. x axis is lateral acceleration (negative = left hand turn, positive = right hand turn) and y axis is longitudinal acceleration (positive = acceleration, negative = braking).
http://www.temporal.com.au/fig2.gif
You can note that you can't have the same maximum longitudinal acceleration than deceleration. Indeed you are power limited by your engine.
How to maximize your car acceleration (and laptime)
In early days, drivers were trying to use only maximum longitudinal and lateral acceleration and not trying to combine both. That's mean braking in straight line, release brakes, turn in, apex, turn out, throttling.
https://wiki.eee.uci.edu/images/7/73/Ggdiagram3.JPG
In term of G-G diagramm (the one I have shown before), it looks like that :
https://wiki.eee.uci.edu/images/8/89/Ggdiagram4.JPG
Actually this graph isn't good. The fastest way to take a corner is to use the maximum combined acceleration. That mean that for any longitudinal acceleration, you should be as close as possible to the maximum lateral acceleration and exploit the previous graph.
How to do that?
Let's analyse a typical corner in term of that diagramm.
When you are at the end of a straight, your acceleration longitudinal is near 0 (maximum speed) and your lateral's one also. When you hit the brake, you reach maximal negative acceleration exactly as the example before. However, this time you will not release brake pedal before turn in point but stay on the brake while turn in. Of course you release it a bit not to lock up as your tyres can't manage the same deceleration. you wil then follow the lower circle of the graph until you hit the apex. On the apex, you hit the maximum lateral acceleration. From there, you can start being back on throttle and accelerate the car again. But once again, you will achieve that while turn out so as you decrease your steering angle (next step is about that) you will be able to increase longitudinal acceleration and finally full/maximal longitudinal acceleration.
One last point, don't worry you almost do that everytime when you are driving quite quickly. I suggest you do some laps in hotlap mod and save raf file. Then you download LFS replay analyzer and plot the GG diagramm of your lap.
Case study : XRR at BL1
Here is an example of a lap of Sean Lyddon with XRR in BL1. Well Blackwood isn't really a symetrical track but still it can illustrate what I said above with a slight difference which is aerodynamics that increase the maximum acceleration and combined acceleration.
You got on it 1 straight braking (actually not completely straight as racing line is slightly turning), 2 combined braking through the corner, 3 maximum lateral acceleration on apex, 4 combined acceleration on corner exit. Note that it was early stage of setup development and that we got some issues with power control which cause some snappy oversteer (5 ) but that illustrate the fact that if you try to introduce too much longitudinal acceleration (i.e. accelerating full throttle too quickly) you will overload your tyre. On the other hand you can see on 6 the effect of engine on longitudinal acceleration. Indeed you lose you acceleration when speed is increasing (drag making it even worse).
http://imageshack.us/f/43/seangg.png/
It is important to highlight that all those different step can be long (i.e braking from 300km/h to 90km/h) or really short (step 2, 3 or 4). So even that powerslide isn't that big and Sean managed to do quite a decent laptime. It illustrate as well how power control can be an issue and that counter steer makes you lose some longitudinal acceleration. (See Pablo's post about what happen when cornering with throttle).
That's quite a complex thing to get but that's really the basic of everything. Setting the car is about trying to increase that circle radius and driving is about being at the limit of this traction circle.
Always good to know how car behaves in order to drive it more efficiently and to know what to modify when something is wrong !
If I can give my 2 cents.
Actually everything start from tyres. When you are setting the car, what you want is to use as best as possible the grip your tyres can provide. I'll stay on the basics as tyres is the most complex thing on a car.
Maximum Acceleration
Tyres provide maximum acceleration both longitudinal and lateral. However you can't achieve maximum longitudinal and lateral acceleration at the same time. When you are accelerating in both direction (i.e. braking while turning or accelerating into a corner) you are actually reducing the maximum amount of acceleration you can have both in longitudinal axis of your car and lateral axis.
Actually acceleration (and also Forces) that a tyre can provide looks like this diagramm. x axis is lateral acceleration (negative = left hand turn, positive = right hand turn) and y axis is longitudinal acceleration (positive = acceleration, negative = braking).
http://www.temporal.com.au/fig2.gif
You can note that you can't have the same maximum longitudinal acceleration than deceleration. Indeed you are power limited by your engine.
How to maximize your car acceleration (and laptime)
In early days, drivers were trying to use only maximum longitudinal and lateral acceleration and not trying to combine both. That's mean braking in straight line, release brakes, turn in, apex, turn out, throttling.
https://wiki.eee.uci.edu/images/7/73/Ggdiagram3.JPG
In term of G-G diagramm (the one I have shown before), it looks like that :
https://wiki.eee.uci.edu/images/8/89/Ggdiagram4.JPG
Actually this graph isn't good. The fastest way to take a corner is to use the maximum combined acceleration. That mean that for any longitudinal acceleration, you should be as close as possible to the maximum lateral acceleration and exploit the previous graph.
How to do that?
Let's analyse a typical corner in term of that diagramm.
When you are at the end of a straight, your acceleration longitudinal is near 0 (maximum speed) and your lateral's one also. When you hit the brake, you reach maximal negative acceleration exactly as the example before. However, this time you will not release brake pedal before turn in point but stay on the brake while turn in. Of course you release it a bit not to lock up as your tyres can't manage the same deceleration. you wil then follow the lower circle of the graph until you hit the apex. On the apex, you hit the maximum lateral acceleration. From there, you can start being back on throttle and accelerate the car again. But once again, you will achieve that while turn out so as you decrease your steering angle (next step is about that
) you will be able to increase longitudinal acceleration and finally full/maximal longitudinal acceleration. One last point, don't worry you almost do that everytime when you are driving quite quickly. I suggest you do some laps in hotlap mod and save raf file. Then you download LFS replay analyzer and plot the GG diagramm of your lap.
Case study : XRR at BL1
Here is an example of a lap of Sean Lyddon with XRR in BL1. Well Blackwood isn't really a symetrical track but still it can illustrate what I said above with a slight difference which is aerodynamics that increase the maximum acceleration and combined acceleration.
You got on it 1 straight braking (actually not completely straight as racing line is slightly turning), 2 combined braking through the corner, 3 maximum lateral acceleration on apex, 4 combined acceleration on corner exit. Note that it was early stage of setup development and that we got some issues with power control which cause some snappy oversteer (5 ) but that illustrate the fact that if you try to introduce too much longitudinal acceleration (i.e. accelerating full throttle too quickly) you will overload your tyre. On the other hand you can see on 6 the effect of engine on longitudinal acceleration. Indeed you lose you acceleration when speed is increasing (drag making it even worse).
http://imageshack.us/f/43/seangg.png/
It is important to highlight that all those different step can be long (i.e braking from 300km/h to 90km/h) or really short (step 2, 3 or 4). So even that powerslide isn't that big and Sean managed to do quite a decent laptime. It illustrate as well how power control can be an issue and that counter steer makes you lose some longitudinal acceleration. (See Pablo's post about what happen when cornering with throttle).
That's quite a complex thing to get but that's really the basic of everything. Setting the car is about trying to increase that circle radius and driving is about being at the limit of this traction circle.
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
You know I'm not trying to get the piss on you. Only trying to demonstrate that endurance races with GTR with such restriction isn't really interesting and will give nightmare to drivers wanted to keep heat on their tyres.
Basically you will have to do exactly the opposite of what every other car of this game is in term of tyres management. You'll need a set aggressive on tyres and an aggressive driving. That will not help people to improve. I didn't even managed to powerslide XRR with GT3 set with really stiff back. I like to believe that this kind of league (like GT3tcc for example) helps driver to improve and get on the top racers in the top series, but I don't think this class would help.
Furthermore laptimes could be similar, but you will have a lot of difference in term of straight line speed (220km/h for XR4 at AS5) and cornering speed (UFR is about 135ish through T1 at AS5, XR4 is 170 !). That would make the racing really entertaining because there will be no close fight. Will be a lot of move but only UFR overtaking GTR on straight and GTR diving UFR underbraking or doing a perfect outside line.
I have a lot of experience with XRR and even with no downforce i'm feeling as if the car gets too much grip in fast corner which is quite astonishing to be honest (actually can't accelerate to critical speed in some corner like AS4/5 split 2 complex).
For my point of view sprint races or multiclass GT2(3)/NGT would be much more interesting.
@Ray : U 'Murican !
Basically you will have to do exactly the opposite of what every other car of this game is in term of tyres management. You'll need a set aggressive on tyres and an aggressive driving. That will not help people to improve. I didn't even managed to powerslide XRR with GT3 set with really stiff back. I like to believe that this kind of league (like GT3tcc for example) helps driver to improve and get on the top racers in the top series, but I don't think this class would help.
Furthermore laptimes could be similar, but you will have a lot of difference in term of straight line speed (220km/h for XR4 at AS5) and cornering speed (UFR is about 135ish through T1 at AS5, XR4 is 170 !). That would make the racing really entertaining because there will be no close fight. Will be a lot of move but only UFR overtaking GTR on straight and GTR diving UFR underbraking or doing a perfect outside line.
I have a lot of experience with XRR and even with no downforce i'm feeling as if the car gets too much grip in fast corner which is quite astonishing to be honest (actually can't accelerate to critical speed in some corner like AS4/5 split 2 complex).
For my point of view sprint races or multiclass GT2(3)/NGT would be much more interesting.
@Ray : U 'Murican !
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
Reason : message for Ray :p
actually tried, got bored in 1 straight even 0/0 downforce looks to be too much 
for your information did a 3:03.240 which is 3s slower than UFR WR with XR4
FE1 = 40.70 (1s off XFR WR)
SO5 = 1:22.1 (2s off WR)
learning drivers to rape tyres isn't my philosophy. Bye
even 0/0 downforce looks to be too much for your information did a 3:03.240 which is 3s slower than UFR WR with XR4
FE1 = 40.70 (1s off XFR WR)
SO5 = 1:22.1 (2s off WR)
learning drivers to rape tyres isn't my philosophy. Bye
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
k I'll show you then Will do a stint on Thursday with XRR at AS5 using GT2 set as a basis. That set did finish 2nd in MoE 24hours and did do 23-24 laps / stints consistently.
Tyres temp were no more that 105degres in heatpeak and didn't fall lower than 80° until lap 20-21.
This set was high pressure (about 200kPa front and 240 rear). Will show you what pressure I'll have to run to get some heat inside the tyre for such a long time (if even I manage to have some in lap 10).
Will do a stint on Thursday with XRR at AS5 using GT2 set as a basis. That set did finish 2nd in MoE 24hours and did do 23-24 laps / stints consistently.Tyres temp were no more that 105degres in heatpeak and didn't fall lower than 80° until lap 20-21.
This set was high pressure (about 200kPa front and 240 rear). Will show you what pressure I'll have to run to get some heat inside the tyre for such a long time (if even I manage to have some in lap 10).
Well actually Miro I'm not that closed minded
Nah there as a spectator. BTCC is quite entertaining to watch.
and I prefer LMPs
Nah there as a spectator. BTCC is quite entertaining to watch.
and I prefer LMPs
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
Driving with cold tyres is like having a date with a 300kg girl when you looks like Brad Pitt. No sense.
A racing tyre have to be used at its optimum temperature range and even if LFS tyre model isn't perfect, that statement is always true in LFS. R2 tyres will be black at the end of the race at track like AS4.
probably going to see some BTCC rounds this year again.
r2 will get heat at the begining of a stint/race but on 1 hour race they gonna cool down and be frozen at the end of the race 
No offence, but GT3 have already so much grip that I don't think GTR with so big restriction will be fun to drive. Will be so stable and so underpowered tbh and even r2 might be so iced cube ^^
Well what is true is that this engine doesn't show domination and today there is no ban for rotary engine. But as I said it was Mazda that develop it. No offence to Mazda but it wasn't (and still not is) one of the biggest factory. That's like saying petrol engine are 6s slower than diesel engine in le Mans. Even if petrol engine were more restricted than diesel engine, you can't compare Rebellion Racing which is a privateer with Audi which is a factory.
True ^^ But actually Le Mans is the only race that counts, isn't it? In 2011 Audi won "only" Le Mans as well (but what a win !).
It wasn't the car of the year for sure but need to bear in mind that Mazdaspeed wasn't Mercedes , nor Jaguar or Peugeot. The car was prepared by Oreca which was at that stage of its history not what they are now. Anyway no factory team have any interest into that technology as it is considered as to much petrol consumer. Only Citroën tried to develop it seriously and that has almost cost them to bankrupt. But still Wankel engine aren't completely wrong. Only a lack of interest from industry that leads to know development for motorsport.
It wasn't the car of the year for sure but need to bear in mind that Mazdaspeed wasn't Mercedes , nor Jaguar or Peugeot. The car was prepared by Oreca which was at that stage of its history not what they are now. Anyway no factory team have any interest into that technology as it is considered as to much petrol consumer. Only Citroën tried to develop it seriously and that has almost cost them to bankrupt. But still Wankel engine aren't completely wrong. Only a lack of interest from industry that leads to know development for motorsport.
Yes but instead of having only 1 combustion in 2 rotation you got 6 which makes your engine quite smaller. The Mazda 787B is probably the car that won Le Mans with the smallest engine. (that mean lighter as well).
Well actually it is kind of quite clever but still a long way to go to get it mature ^^ tho some modern engineering should probably manage a big car maker to solve those problems but they are ppl are more focusing on electrical cars.
fixed...Diesel in motorsport =
not in last few year btw. There are way more Ferrari by now. The thing is that even a GTE looks more high tech than a DP.
To be honest I hope it will not. DP are pretty shit ^^ LMP2 in europe have shown they were reliable and few years ago racing was insane in P2 class even in ALMS and according to Peter Baron, LMP2 isn't more expensive than DP to run.
I hope it will not. DP looks really old school cars. Even 2liter CN looks more "modern"
http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/ ... 7199321739_69621093_n.jpg
http://www.endurance-info.com/ ... s/news/11_TattusPY012.jpg
Let's use LMP2 and say hello to 21st century ^^
GT1 were 100ish bhp more powerful than GTE, two years later GTE were faster in Le Mans
Conquest Racing have announced that they will accept their invitation to Le Mans (which is provisionnal until the team didn't enter a Le Mans serie) so they should probably continue in LMP2. Then will they do that in ALMS?
Even in Europe a lot of P2 teams are currently hesitating between ELMS and WEC. Back in 2011 doing both was possible which was quite a good thing to be honest.
I'am also worrying about AsLMS. Several teams have already announced racing there with GT3, one with P2 and none with GTE.
Even in Europe a lot of P2 teams are currently hesitating between ELMS and WEC. Back in 2011 doing both was possible which was quite a good thing to be honest.
I'am also worrying about AsLMS. Several teams have already announced racing there with GT3, one with P2 and none with GTE.
Last edited by MoMo92i, .
Because some teams gonna withdrawn. Completely agree with what Deko said in first paragraph. Can extend that in restart and even under safety car, last two races werered flagged because someone did hit a rolled car.
I don't agree about the stream though. With the overlays last round has clearly put stream in lfs a step further. However I miss team's advert. That was creating some fun (thinking about spdodog). I think it can be possible to broadcast some or some usefull movies for the audience during the SC as wave around takes a lot of time.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG