Quote from Homeless_Drunk :

Like myself and others have said, these kind of additions that make the game more realistic will really separate the arcade racers from the simulation racers.

This is elitist stereotyping plain and simple, if these supposed "arcade racers" actually existed don't you think they'd be playing arcade games and not a simulation like LFS?

Woz to his credit has brought up the only objectively valid reason for introducing fcv but then even that could be gotten around, just place a virtual windscreen in-front of all views. Smoke obscuring your vision would be a valid reason for disallowing chase view which I wouldn't oppose.

This whole thing really has more to do with elitism than achieving anything substantial for the game.

Quote from Gunn :

"Seeing your wheels" is not chase view. Chase view puts you up high so that you can see quite a way in front of you and even see what is around the bend. This applies to both autox and circuit racing. In a flat autox environment it is particularly noticeable.

I probably could have worded what I said better. Chase view at best provides a minimal advantage in circuit racing only by better being able to see obstacles up the road which might otherwise be obscured. This is no advantage in autox when drivers have memorised a layout already.
It is arguable that chase view provides a minimal advantage in positioning your car in autox but the crux of my point was that this, in and of itself, doesn't automatically mean you can position your car exactly where you want to. You still require the car car control to do so. If someone betters your time using chase view then imo 99 times out of 100 this will be because of their overall skill rather then the view, maybe even 999 times out of 1,000. Of course this is hard to quantify exactly.
My original comment was also referring to wheels view which some view as an advantage also in both circuit and autox racing. Having extensively raced with both wheels view and cockpit view I don't believe there is any real advantage when it comes to positioning your car. Contrary to popular perception you can't drive well in wheels view by focusing on the wheels, at most it can help by having a quick glance when you apex a corner to assess whether you got as close to the apex as you could have done. Still spatial awareness meant I never had much of a problem in this respect once I switched to cockpit view.

Apart from a few obvious things like chase views better view of the road ahead I think it's all just assumption become fact. Granted however that other advantages are probably something that are impossible to objectively prove or disprove.

Last edited by tailing, Wed, 11 Jul 2007 03:18.

Quote from Dajmin :

This means that those of us who treat the game as if we're racing for real can race together, and those who treat it like a game can also stick together.

Why do you and so many others think it is simply a matter of either one or the other? This is the most disappointing aspect of this whole thing, that so many people can be so narrow minded. So using wheels view automatically means you don't race like it was for real? I raced many league races using wheels view and later using cockpit view and the view made no difference.
Don't mean to appear to be picking on only you mate (just using your post to highlight some points) but the world isn't black and white, there isn't two totally separate and disparate groups within LFS that need to be segregated.
As evidenced in this thread many people don't see that cockpit view is any more realistic than other views on offer so how does that make them less 'hardcore'? Fact is it doesn't but a certain portion of the community has convinced themselves that their opinion is what's right, despite much evidence to the contrary, and consequences be damned. Honestly the nerve that some people would tell others they're playing the wrong game or should go play some arcade game, it's really quite offensive. For someone who wants realistic physics but prefers the chase view where else can they go?

As an aside I don't buy the argument that chase view gives an unfair advantage in the autox arena. Seeing your wheels or the exterior of your car does not magically mean you can place it exactly where you want to.

Ah well, I've had my say. My wheel broke today, maybe I should take the hint

Quote from danowat :

Hehehe, personally, I think it's funny, I wonder just how many "alien" drivers will be brought down to earth with a bump on forced view servers hehehe

I doubt it would affect any "alien" drivers at all. They're good for a reason and the view they use isn't one of them.

I knew it would happen some day but it's a sad day for LFS indeed.

btw for the record I use cockpit view.

Very cool indeed! Will definitely give this a go.

Good idea to make it autocross, gives anyone in the world an even chance.

@XCNuse, while the physics change was a big improvement it never changed the underlying characteristics of the cars for me, if the LX8 was simply a crap car then I doubt that has changed.

Quote from danowat :

if I remember correctly, the "only" reason it was left out was because the tyre physics at that time made it next to impossible to drive, now we have better tyre physics, that reason is no longer valid.

I doubt the tyre physics would make that much difference that something "undriveable" suddenly becomes driveable and I suspect the extra weight of the v8 ruined the handling, but this is all speculation on both our parts.

As has been mentioned by numerous people, forget the LX8, forget some GTR version shoehorned into an unsuitable class and that goes against the whole philosophy of the car and please just give us the equivalent of a race prepped clubman. Pretty please

I think charging to upload skins would just end up turning people off uploading their skins defeating the whole purpose of the original skin download feature. There really is nothing wrong with the new system, no need to invent new ones.

Yeah, I think when you've got hi-res skins for your team-mates, friends etc. then the lo-res ones really stand out.

Which is essentially what sinbad mentioned over the page and what I totally agree with

Edit: As long as it stays a four

Quote from Jamexing :

LX6 = front heavy?

Last time I checked, that car had more weight at the back then at the front, so how could that be?

Sorry, I meant relative to the lx4 the extra weight towards the front of the car from the larger engine. The lx4 is my favourite car but the lx6 I rarely drive so putting an even heavier v8 in the front will only further ruin the handling of the car from my pov.

Quote from sinbad :

I don't want the LX8 if it's going to be the only racing "7" we get. I want a proper racing 4-cyl 7 (full cage, no screen just a small deflector, no lights etc) that (shock horror) won't be slotted into any of the existing classes and will have no direct competitor.

Exactly

Putting a big motor in a clubman is going against the whole philosophy of the car and I barely drive the LX6 because it's so front heavy already.

I barely play LFS anymore, in fact only two or three times recently after probably 10 months break but I've shelled out the three pounds.
I'm already used to getting 2048x2048 skin packs from forums etc. so it's nice to be able to do much the same automatically.

Has it ever been proven that that is the case? Through many a discussion when I was still racing no one ever proved that those settings added anything to the ffb that shouldn't already be there and when I gave them a shot on my momo they felt terrible.

I've got some LFS sim socks
They're a bit of a wank but they're better than normal socks, the extra padding helps, especially on the heel in long races.

I don't really race anymore but when I did it was predominantly in leagues and the only way to sort divisions was by using hotlaps. From my point of view it was far from ideal.
I think there could be room for two types of hotlaps without actually creating two types of hotlaps. Stick with me I'll start making sense in a second
Have a selectable option for say "Realistic Hotlaps" and "Pure Hotlaps" that are essetially the same in that they all go on the same chart but they have a slightly different hlvc which in effect appears on the charts much like throttle blip/cut etc. do.
The 'Pure' hotlaps would be much as they are now for people who hotlap for hotlappings sake like Biggie. LFS has kinda invented something new here which some people prefer to normal racing and there's little reason to destroy this for the supposed push for more realism. Maybe even include such things as tyres up to optimum temp and pre-cut/worn tyres.
The 'Realistic' hotlaps would be more like mini qualifying runs, start from the pits with tyre temps as they currently are and no driving backwards. On long circuit/car combos you could have alternate entrances onto the track near the last split. There's probably even a few other things you could do that I haven't thought about to bring things more into line with what league racing is all about.

When a league queries LFS World for hotlap times to sort divisions it can look for the ones with the 'Realistic' flag.

Another idea I've had which is getting a bit off topic now but I'll throw in just for good measure You could have a completely separate type of hotlapping where depending on the car/track combo, your required to complete x minimum number of laps and an average is taken to give the final lap time.

Last edited by tailing, Fri, 23 Mar 2007 10:01.

I haven't played LFS for about six months now but was curious about what had been done to the sounds with the new patch. At first I was like 'wow, I can really see why a lot of people have always hated the sounds' but I think the LFS sounds always grow on me because they are informative in a way that samples can never be.
I think the road cars have had the most improvement and sound the most realistic at this point. The in-car muffling is as it should be and it seems as if the exhaust has had a bit of a tweak. The different road cars sound more unique now and closer to what the different configurations produce in the real world. Contrary to most people it seems I quite like the LX4 and the FOX, they remind me a lot of high revving four bangers with a big exhaust.
There are some times when the sounds are very convincing to me but others when it really does sound bad and like old 80's arcade games as some have mentioned. Every now and then watching the BF1 lap around City Town from the track cameras it would sound remarkably like the real thing due to the right combination of revs, echo etc. where other times it would almost sound laughable. This at least says to me that things are on the right track and with all the factors in the right place the synthesised engine can produce realistic sound.

All up I'd say a definate improvement and I look forward to more improvement in this area. I think atm it's still the most major area in need of improvement to raise the standard of LFS as a whole.

btw, imo anyone expecting a revolution in the sound engine just because the main page says 'sound improvements' obviously knows very little about LFS, it's sound engine and it's development.

I think the performance advantage that the FXO and the FZR have atm is too big. The FXO seems pretty simple, just bring it more to the pack and the general preference of RWD overall will see many more driving the XRT even with the FXO still having a small advantage. This will also have the flow on effect like others have said where the XRT and RB4 will see performance gains just through being driven more often. I think the devs have tried to address the problem with the latest patch by making the FXO harder to drive but it doesn't seem quite enough just yet.
The FZR is a little more difficult I think because before the recent patch the XRR was generally the best choice for long races (1hr + and depending on track). It seems curious that the FZR gained the biggest benefit from the new patch, I can only wonder if the aim was to make it more competitive in the longer races. I don't think it would take much to get back to a similar position to the pre-patch situation.

I don't really buy the physics changing argument, particularly when it comes to the FXO. I can't remember a time when the FXO wasn't the quickest car under virtually all circumstances and it's nearing 3 years since I started playing.
I also wonder if the beta team is really suitable enough for car balance testing. No offence to them and I'm not having a go but I don't think there's anywhere near enough of them to get an accurate idea of the balance of the cars over all the various track configs (the FXO's domination aside ).
I think maybe a month or two of community wide testing is what it will take to get the balancing issues fully sorted out.

I did some practice in the FXO last night, probably haven't driven it since S1 and at the risk of judging too early it just seems worse than ever. One set I tried (wr set by no_one off inferno) seemed like it went to fairly extreme lengths to combat it's oversteering tendency which did help but just seemed to cause other problems.
To be honest I tend to think it's just a shitty car and nothing is really going to change that, at least my mediocre setup skills aren't going to do it

Quote from Rob76 :

I agree, and can't understand how some people can take such a drastic critical stance against rF graphics and hold up LFS as great (I saw it in the rF info thread too). The only part of rF's graphics I find 'cartoony' are the original cars and cockpit graphics. The tracks weren't bad and have a lot of highly detailed parts but some of the stock textures around the track (such as adverts) were quite low res.

I don't have anything against rF but I'm yet to play it for various reasons, anyway I'll just comment on what I find cartoony about those pics but first off the sky textures look great.
First pic looks pretty good overall but the car itself, specifically the rims and tyres look hand drawn which I don't particularly like and looks a touch cartoony to me. Trees look great, track looks basically the same as LFS.
Second pic, again the tyres look hand drawn. The road is shiny which to my eye just doesn't fit and the grass area looks hand drawn. The car in front also looks like a black square shape at the rear but I wouldn't say that it looks bad overall.
Third pic is much the same things, tyres and rims blah blah but the thing that stands out is the flashy effect on the road in the foreground which just doesn't look right.
Last pic there isn't much to fault but the car just gives me that slight hand drawn impression but I think it's probably just something that I personally don't like. It's like the highly detailed cockpits I've seen in other sims like GPL, I tend to prefer the LFS ones despite their deficiencies purely because the others look more like a drawing or painting than the real thing.
Overall I don't think rF looks bad but I honestly prefer the way LFS looks, looks more natural to me.

The obvious thing to try is your brake bias, try adjusting it forwards, a small adjustment can make all the difference.

Is an all inclusive mode really the best way to go about it though? I mean even those who want a hardcore mode don't seem to agree on what it should consist of. It could be better just to include a range of server side options and then the server owner can tailor the server as they see fit. For example with the aforementioned tyre and fuel limits, I don't imagine everyone wanting to use the hardcore mode on their server would always want these particular options enabled.
The devs seem reluctant to add in a lot of server side options though, just going by how many different ones are requested that have never made it into the game. I think it could work though and being that it would require more work on the sever owners part would mean you wouldn't have a whole slew of servers automatically enabling the hardcore mode as soon as it became available. This would possibly alleviate the concerns of those who aren't in favour of a hardcore mode for the reasons stated earlier, feeling they would suddenly be locked out of most servers.

I actually use cockpit view, I switched from wheels mode purely for the formulas in S2 and not having to change my default view all the time. Having used both extensively you'll never convince me there's anything substantially more realistic to cockpit view given the limitations of playing a sim on a pc.
However, from some of the posts in this thread I can see there is some legitimate want/need for some other so-called "hardcore" options and I wouldn't really object to those being server side options.
I think Woz is right that we should seperate the issue of fcv from any sort of hardcore mode, this would probably raise the chances of some of these other options becoming available in the future. This thread is clear that fcv is a very devisive issue and it could be just what is stopping the devs from implementing the other ideas.

btw, as a league admin some options like 'no warping to pits' aren't really that necessary because it's a simple matter to implement rules and enforce them. Just wanted to mention that as leagues are often given as an example for why some of these things are necessary but it isn't always the case.

I've never really worried about it much before but you've got me thinking now BBT and I agree that there should be a bit more disparity between manual and auto clutch. Auto Clutch is too perfect, I've missed the odd shift in league races which has cost me dearly. Of course it's my own choice to use manual clutch but I think auto clutch could afford to be a bit slower or maybe have some randomised element to it so it doesn't work perfectly every time.
Whilst a lot of people complained about the gear changing in nkpro what I could gather from those who actually have driven the cars in real life it's an accurate representation of the real gearboxes that aren't always easy to use. I think it's something LFS could take on board where each car is somewhat unique in the technique used to change gear rather than the identical, sequential in nature gearboxes they all have now.

Yeah I agree Woz, we had an XFR series in the AAL recently and it is a great little car but I often thought if only we had a similar rwd car, nice na engine, weight reduced and slicks. Another XR variant would be a bit boring but I'm sure eric could come up with something.