Quote from zeugnimod :

An interview after that we wouldn't know anything more than we do now.

If the devs don't want to say anything about progress, they won't. They will if they consider it the right time and they won't let others force them to do so. It has always been like that and that is the right way.

I don't get about what bigger communication you are speaking. The bigger communication alwys started with the release of the first test patch where the users could find bugs etc. Before the release of a test patch Scawen was always very quiet.

I mean by that at least tell us a list of precise things they are working on. Scawen once posted a "to-do list" with a lot of features. We do not know what will be in the next patch. And zeug, for me, a test patch is the patch itself. There are some bugs that will be removed, but not the future content itself. So basically, once he tells us what is in the testpatch, he tells what will be in the patch (with a test period of around 2 weeks, but since we have the same content, then it is the same in my mind).

A post/announcement every now and then saying : "Hey what's up guys ? We have finished the Scirocco model, and halfway through a better collision system, thanks for being patient ! " would be greatly appreciated.
We have no communication, so even this little post (which takes 4 mins maximum to write/read/edit/reread/press post), would make a big difference, instead of saying "Hey, there will be a new car soon! in LFS", and then keep being silent for more than three monthes. At least, for the FBM, they announced it a couple of weeks before its release, as long as with the CMX viewer tool. We could expect the same for the Scirocco, but I suspect the dev team being held hostages by a group of crazy penguin terrorist somewhere in Antartica to give no news at all.

Quote from Bandit77 :

*Just look at the part about updates*

Well actually, I think that the main reason people buy Live For Speed is for its awesome physics engine. And I actually like the fact that as Scawen said "LFS is meant to be a racing simulator, not a screenshot generator".
I am running on a computer (only 1 year old though), that is completely outdated to nowadays graphics in game, and I like the fact that LFS provides an reasonably fast graphic experience.

However, I tend to agree about the update ratio/price, which is favorable to the "oldtimers".
As some one posted above, some releases every now and then would be greatly appreciated.

I wish to say even once more that more communication is what we need between the LFS developpers and us. This will prevent this kind of threads to appear, and demotivation to grow up.
Someone should think about an interview, shouldn't they ?

I totally agree with the picture of LFS with the smileys. This is the normal cycle-rule of every firm/product :
- Launched --> surprise!
- First years --> surprise turns into more interest --> the firm is growing up
- Middle years --> We have have reached the top of the growth curve --> stagnation
- Some years after --> The products interest fewer and fewer people --> no more growth, and even recession
- Suddenly --> Bankruptcy!

This is the standard scenario if the firm/product does not adapt to the market and the context. This is not what I wish to LFS, as it is a software that I enjoy very much.
Smaller and smaller upgrades let the firm/product waive around the deadlind of the firm's recession. While completely new upgrades make the firm/product goes into another "Surprise!" stage, throwing the deadline a couple of years away again.

To have a taste of small upgrades : look at the cars. Eventually, some model will just die (look at the Viper, sadly ), while the Corolla model have been on the market since the end of the 70's (almost 30 years) and I honestly don't know why :shrug.
However, and hopefully, while you can't improve drastically a car model because you have some requirements, LFS possesses unlimited possibilities.

Compared to other games or software, what we don't have in LFS' universe is greater than what we have already. So we can figure out easily that the improvements are non restricted.

If the devs read my post, I must precise that what I am about to say must not be taken personally. I love the work you do, and the only thing I would say is "Keep up the good work". The only thing that limits Live For Speed at the moment is its development process. The first "mistake" I would say is that there is a lack of communication between the developpers and the community.
While many racers might think the model of communication should be "devs <-/-> subscribers" (meaning that they don't belong in the same world), I prefer to think that "devs <==> subscribers". Whether we like it or not, we share a common thing, which is LFS itself. And since Live For Speed require its community to spread the word and do some publicity, the devs need us as much as we do need them. If LFS gets advertisely-autonomous, then we won't have any right to complain/state something because the devs will not need us anymore.
However, the implied threat of spreading a bad word is far more powerful than spreading a good word (people tend to like and remember negative things only ). That is why more communication between the devs and the community, in both ways (announcements and surveys), would help to get the mood better. (By the way, the lack of news seems to be the reason why people are bitter here : they search the forum looking for hope, and because there is not really, they start bitching about everyone to get their daily dose of adrenaline )

The second thing that restricts LFS is the team. Don't get me wrong, Mr Scavier, I am not saying that you do a bad job (as if I can repeat, I am satisfied everytime LFS comes up with a new patch), but your team and your way of working could acheive bigger things. For instance, increasing the team will either lead to closer releases, or more content in each release. Don't take me bad, especially Scawen, as I well know that it is very hard to manage the beginning of the fatherhood and our own company, and you can't be blamed about anything. I can feel that Live For Speed is calling us to breathe fresh air by having new people working on it, so as to expand its possibilities. But I am not worried, as I am sure that Scavier, event if it is not in their mind now, will figure out sooner or later that they need to increase the number of programmers/modellers/web-developpers and will do the right choice.

You care about your baby (LFS - as I'm sure you care a lot about your RL baby ) more than us, subscribers, will ever do, that is why I know you won't let it die or you won't let people call it dead, and make the right choices according to your sense of logic and the *free (may I need to precise that we are willing to help you avoid paying a consultant )* advices the community who appreciate your work can give you

Please keep up the good work Scavier, come up with the best patch ever for december/january, and blow our mind .

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

Shame CTRA decided to take it off their rotation of maps on the Race 1 server, with the excuse being some crap about yellow flags not working propperly.

No-one cares, just get the damn track

I think it is because it has accessible from demo (Unless they put a cone somewhere in the pitway :shrug

WOW @ the video !

This car is so awesome, and the guy has got skills Is he a rallyist or a stunter ?

Does anyone knows what his tires are ? Because they seem to be extremely grippy, and I might be interested in buying some set

Quote from jbirdaspec :

If you don't do this already...Try blipping the throttle with down shifts when braking for the corner. Try and match the revs of the engine when the clutch engages. Don't be in a hurry to down shift the car. In a timely manner, but smooth. This will keep you front wheel from locking when braking or/and trail braking. If the front wheels don't lock or skip as much you will have less understeer. As for the oversteer try rocking the wheel to maintain grip and be on the throttle as much as possible without running the front end out to the sand. Keep the chassis loaded with torque from the engine as often as possible, but with out grinding them. If this is something you do already you might try tuning the dampers a bit with VHPA. Don't go to far with tuning sets though.

GOOD LUCK!\\
Jay

I'm sorry, I was speaking of the XRG instead of the XFG Yeah, I do blip on downshifts (it's fun and efficient, so ) and my downshifting is acceptable. What surprises me is that I made a set of sets keeping the same pattern for different tracks, and I can do quite well in game, but this corner is like the only corner I can't get good (However, I can get it in rev, without much problem).
Because I think going in BL1 this corners should be a late apex one, to carry enough momentum. The only thing is that I find that the radius is lower at the end of this corner. In that case, I have some problems to get it right, because I aim for a late apex (otherwise, I just go in too early :shrug.
I think my line is the main problem. I can not really find the entry point, the appropriate speed, and the apex for this corner, now matter how hard I watched WR replays

Nice fake !

Just a little advertisement.

I would love this kind of track as well. I am recreating narrow layouts for the LFS tracks and possibly creating a league to simulate driving on there.
http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=50059

Take a look and please comment

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

I'm somewhat of a self proclaimed XFG master. (By that I mean 95% of my PB's are within 0.5 of a second of the WR on any of the road combos used on the CTRA Race1 server, and my normal racing pace within 0.3 of a second of any of those), and the only track I struggle at is Blackwood.

It's a nice track to drive round, but the rhythm seems impossible to get (for me, at least), often losing time at the chicane after the long straight. (when going forward, the one after the 90 degree right hander).

I guess it's easier for people who race(d) alot on demo servers in their past.

Blackwood reversed is much nicer, it's more flowing and seems faster

That is exactly what I feel. I just can't get BL1 right, while I have much less problems with BL1R. My main problem in this track is the right hander after the long-straight. Usually my car get a snap oversteer, and understeer badly there. However, I am quite happy with my times on BL1R ^^

Quote from BigPeBe :

TBH I tried this cruising thing.
I'm a racer what does plenty of drifting too, but still. It isn't really the thing why I got LFS, but I have to confess that it was fun.
Dunno about the cruise part tho, I drive like a nutter there.

Cruising is a bit pointless, but it is one way to pass time and I don't see why it should be so hated that it seems to be.

Well Idk if you are speaking about me, but I don't hate cruising, my goal is not to start a flame war or to put the shame on cruisers. I was just expressing my opinion, samforey12345 replied to it, and I feel that not answering to his post would be impolite .

I mean, the goal of life for me, is to do enjoyable and thrilling things, and to get better at them. Regarding this description, I don't seem to be able to see any field in where you can get better at cruising or improve "cruising skills".
If someone can explain how, I would be ready and willing to hear his point.

Quote from samforey12345 :

You don't know about cruise servers either (or, the good ones.) As i'm sure you know that there are more than one???


And about the rest of your post. I thought the chases were the fun parts????(as we all know there's the great police who put you in jail in real life, and that's aload of fun ain't it??) If real life is so good then why not go and race on a track?

I have tried Cruise servers. The overall impression is the same for me. I find it pointless and goal less. At least, when racing your goal is to become faster and faster. Can you improve your cruising skills ? Of course you can follow more and more obediently the rules, but is this really attractive ? drifting has a goal to : gain better control of your slides, over and over.

Secondly, try to do cops chases all the time, and you'll end up with no money or kick/ban. When racing or drifting you can do it all the time, without having to sacrifice what you earned with time (money when busted in the cruise servers - but you can't sacrifice your racing/drifting skills).

About real life, maybe people don't go on a track, because it is more expensive than buying LFS + a good controller ? (G25 in my case). Meanwhile, everybody with a drivers' license can cruise IRL.

Quote from samforey12345 :

You obviously know very VERY little about cruise servers then, so i suggest, Shh.

Actually I find his description quite close to what cruise is. The COPs on cruise servers seem to really wanna get in the role, which ends up in choking fines, and no fun at all during the chases.

Seriously if the cops were there other than for getting fines and just here for the fun of chases, why would they then ban people that get too many fines

IMHO, CnR were a lot of fun, challenging, and you could have some intense chases there. Cruising : what's the point of rolling at 50 mph with the UF1 getting money to buy cars that require a lot of time investment, while you can rip them for free (cash+time = 0) on other servers?

For cruising, there's a better simulator for experiencing it. It is called "Real Life". There are a lot of cities, a good enforcement team called the government. The scenery, physics and graphic engine is simply unbeleivable, and the features totally outclass the InSim apps for LFS. It has a natural head tracking, you can dress your driver how you like, and you can also benefit of the command /paysex 0 if you are good enough. Plus, it has a lot of real cars in it ! It also simulates the fear of crashing, and the barriers don't make you fly over the track ! The best stuff is that you start with 0 cars, and you have to drive around the city with your bike or skateboard to begin with...
Then you can pretend to get mopeds, then cars or motorcycles. Even TRUCKS, VANS, TRAILERS !!
There are also realistic tow ropes that can get you out of trouble. And no need to add DDS with subwoofers in it, since your car already possesses a complexe 3D sound model and the most realistic doppler effect. Finally, you CAN add neonz, and drive at night or under the rain.

Isn't it the best cruising simulator ever ?

EDIT : I am not flaming cruisers, they do what they want. It is just that it doesn't interest me

Quote from Shadowww :

you can't try a reverse track

Can't the demo users try it, can they ?

I want this

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/flying-car-m400.jpg

With some new tracks to go along, such as : BL : Flying circles or KY : Air Oval Rev. Could be interesting with dynamic weather

Quote from Gunn :

It has always been one of my favourite cars to drive and race. I do wish it had about ten extra horses and some decent tyres though, but all the same it's an honest little car that makes for some close racing.

I feel the same for the XRG... 100 less kilos and supers... and it would be a heck of a fight between this and the bodybuilded XFG version you speak in your earlier post.

A XFS(Gunn's idea)/XRS(my idea) Class anyone ?

Quote from FiveMagics :

Thank you both for the advice. I was particularly interested by your suggestion S14 Drift, is there anyway you could elaborate on your technique. I understand if it's just a 'feel' thing which can't really be explained:-

My own rather half-cocked attempts have mostly revolved around rwd with heavy rear braking to create oversteer>drift but obviously haven't proved too successful, and since your name includes the word 'drift' I suspect that you'd know a considerable ammount more than I do.
Oh, and this is to anyone, how important would you suggest left foot braking is. I'm thinking keep up the throttle while stabbing at the brake, or is this just silly?

Well, for being used to sliding the RWD around the tracks (not drifting : sliding). I would suggest something rather different :
- Stiffness and damping set for entry oversteer + exit understeer. (higher stiffness at the rear-slightly- / low damping at front and high at rear for FR, the opposite for RR and MR layouts).
- ARB set to slight oversteer.
- Brake set to understeer (more to the front)
- Wheels (camber) : set to understeer. (+ 0 toe + equal pressure on rear and front).
- For the tires : Knobbleys in low powered cars, Hybrids in higher powered cars. Because grip on the tarmac isn't that important for the low powered cars since you can gain many seconds in the dirt. However, for higher powered cars, the straights are essential, so hybrids create a much smoother transition.
- For the differential : on asphalt, either 1.5 way (coast = 0.5 power setting) with a mid to high coast or either a 2 way (coast = power) with a low preload so that to simulate a 1.5 way. (in both cases, power at 80%). On dirt, same settings for low powered cars, a bit less locked and preferably using the 2way for higher powered cars, especially TBO's.

You don't want the brakes to create oversteer, since it is better than they stabilize the cars with understeer. Anyway, you don't get that much oversteer by braking (don't need to explain if you are familiar to the traction circle). However, you get oversteer when you release the brakes. So what I do (i suggest you do the same) is to follow those transcients :
- Threshold Braking (maximum braking you'll ever get).
- Steer lightly (untill the tires at the front start screaming)
- Release the brakes just a little bit (usually half of the braking you apply) + Steer more and firmly (your car should start to go into a very light oversteer)
- Play with the brakes untill you find the appropriate angle. (<- not mandatory when you will be used to releasing the brakes a bit) Keep braking untill reaching the sufficient speed (you have to control your angle and your speed : more braking = more deceleration and less angle). Do not countersteer yet, or you will cancel the effects of the 2 previous transcients.
- Step on the gas. Control the oversteer with the gas. You don't need to countersteer (as much as you thought), since having an appropriate footwork on the acceleration and a steady steering angle will result in you sustaining your relative angle through the corner (this is a very important concept, which means you will get a constant angle relative to the racing line/tangent of the part of the corner you are in - not meaning that you will have a constant angle compared to the exit way). This is because your 4 wheels will be sliding basically. This is [b]the fast way[/b) (and it is more seeable in the dirt tracks than on asphalt, since you might have to catch higher angles to cope with the basic understeer you get on dirt). You can countersteer a bit if you want, to have only 3 wheel slidings while the front outside one will provide some directionnal force, but I suggest you to train ASAP to slide with your 4 wheels. A light countersteer might be good, as long as it doesn't make your fronts gain grip again. This is good because it will allow you to end the slide faster
- Once you want to end the slide, just countersteer a bit more, while keeping the same gas pedal.

All of these will allow you to fly through the track and the corners, sliding a bit, while keeping transmitting power to the road.

Good luck

EDIT : What you have to know about whether to use left foot brake is the effects it creates. There are 2 kinds of left foot braking.
- The "blip" : you just press/release the brakes rapidly while accelerating and in a corner, and this will remove any understeery tendency, saving your corner, your car, and your arse. <-- In this case, the dominant pedal is the accelerator.
- Applying the accelerator while braking : this is meant for two things, the major being affecting your brake balance, and the minor is keeping the boost of the turbo to remove the lag. In a FWD car, the more you apply the throttle when braking, the more you switch your brake balance toward the rear (front brakes will have to slow down accelerating wheels --> less braking power). This results in oversteer, and might be very useful for a FWD. I am more skeptical about a RWD, because it creates understeer (same as above, but inversed). However, if you defintely want to keep the boost up while braking, you maybe should move your brake balance to the rear a bit, so that left foot braking in this case will result in the same stability as a balance more to the front and no throttle on deceleration.

I hope it does make sense ^^

Last edited by Zen321, Fri 7 Nov 2008, 10:18.

I voted no, because I think that browsing the forums for a demo-guy can make him learn new stuff about LFS and make him by it (layouts, tracks, screenshots, cars, add-ons, etc..)

Quote from K. Tsuchiya :

IMHO you can't handle an AW11 at the absolute limit without doing it with the RAC first. LFS is the best simulation to date. I have saved some nasty slides and near misses IRL with nearly everything! Rwd, fwd, awd, trucks and cars alike, with the help of LFS's "seat time" I beleive it made me a much better driver in the sence of control over the dynamic forces acting upon a 4 wheeled vehicle.

I'm not saying if you can drift or turn hot laps in LFS you can in real life, but, it will improve your awareness of the vehicle and the behavior of it.

RAC with intake restriction set to about 115bhp and hybrid tires helped prepare for this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LHsWMVsdWE

AW11 MR2 (built for auto-x) with summer performance tires, open diff., about 95bhp, and a LFS fanatic behind the wheel! (btw, this is my brother behind the wheel not me! I'm driving the legacy estate chase car)

Couldn't agree more. My driving skills greatly improved after getting my G25 and playing a lot with it.
A bit OT. Did you downgrade your MR2 performance ? Because I thought that the AW11 had a 4A-GE (like the Toyota Corolla), which pulls about 115-120bhp. Maybe you meant 95whp ?

Nice video, by the way If you wanna train more, I am working on a mountain track league, maybe you should check my topic (A new idea for a new league ?), should threads below ^^

Pré-scriptum : Sorry for the DP, but I couldn't add attachments with the edit function :S

So here are 3 replays. The 1st one is the XRG replay I used to make the video. Now you can see and judge the whole track. The other two ones are hillclimbs with the FOX and the FO8, made with my poor formula skills and my touchpad (I miss my G25 ). Please, do not hesitate pressing shift-u and fly around the track to see it in its integrity

There is a 11 seconds different in the time, which is very important, and made me think : shouldn't we add as well both of the FOX and the FO8 in the misc events (for now, maybe if the league works, we could do a hill climb league on the same layouts ), and the driver should choose between them ? (FO8 gives more points, but more dangerous, while FXO gives less point but it is easier to acheive good times with it ?) or should we only add the FOX or the FO8 ?

Thanks for your help

Quote from Mille Sabords :

Sounds interesting.
The issue with barriers will be more noticeable online of course, so maybe you should host your layout online for testing?
Lag is likely to create mayhem... because your position packets are not up to date, it is very easy to be a few cemtimeters out of position - enough to bring a tyre into a barrier, and then we wish you a nice flight

Thanks for the support !

Yeah, the only problem is that I have a really crappy connection where I am now, so I am looking for now who could help me host the layout for a couple hours (on a private server with only people that have been chosent among the ones willing to do it, in order to have a quality of testers).

Okay here are some more news.

After some private testing, I think the layout I have now is really okay and will bring some funs My tests made me come up with the idea of having the rules a bit modified :
- for the misc uphill events, the hill climb won't be with the FOX, but with the FO8. Why ? Because it is simply amazingly fun and stressful You don't have time to react, so you need to think a few corners in advance. I like the idea of this.

Please, can anyone who volunteer to host the server and the layout send me a PM, so that we can schedule a time. This would be greatly appreciated. I would also like some people to tell me if they are interested in testing the rules and the layout I have for now, to see if I need to modify them/it any further
Basically what will happen will be a couple of runs with the most combos (e.g. FZ5 vs XRG / LX4 vs XRT) on this layout, so that the results and the statistics will allow me to determine the final rules of the battles.

Thank you very much, your help is appreciated.

Quote from scania :

someone was do this---the six stroke engine & the Internal combustion steam engine in japan

Damn, I thought I would have been the next invetor of the century
Concerning the six-stroke engine, the Beare Head one (there are a lot of six stroke engines) seems to be very interesting. Too bad we can't find more information on the web

However, I truly beleive that the next step in motor evolution is the Quasiturbine.

Quote from scania :

But diesel can be 45%

however, all of Internal combustion engine will be out, air car & electrics car is the future of car. heavy vehicle with long-distance will use a high efficiency External combustion engine or Internal stream engine with electrics hybrid or hydraulic hybrid

About the transfer from calorifical energy. Yes, burning a liters of fuel produces a lot of energy through the form of heat. However, it is not the heat that powers (well indirectly it does) the cars. It is the expansion of thoses gases, which then is transformed into longitudinal force (pistons), which is then changed into rotational force (crankshaft). To the heat is not really used here (even if the heat is the cause of the expansion of gases in the cylinder).

Maybe to improve efficieny should we add a water tank around the exhaust catalyst, so that the heat will make the water boil. This would be, of course, coupled to a steam engine located in the back of the car, which would be linked to the transmission, so that we have extra efficiency ?

I like the feature as well, so +1.

However, not only features about winning for the positive ones (even though I like the ones you posted).
I would suggest like calvinaquino that the bad features stay hidden, so that people won't try to cause crashes on purposes in pick up races.

Quote from Timdpr :

Sounds great! I can't seem to download the video, though.

I'm afraid the barriers do put me off a bit. I know the consequences are realistic (completely broken car,) but it just doesn't feel right. You may have done this already (I can't watch the video, as I have mentioned - could somebody post some screenshots?) but something that would greatly improve it imo would be to put cones along the track 7 metres apart, and barriers 8m (or mabye 7.5m) apart.

I may not attend all the races, but if the times work out for me, I will try to come along to as many as possible.

I have thought of it for long, and I did not at first want to use the barriers (poles or bales), but then i realised something : people would not mind hitting them, and could increase the track width (virtually) by going through them. This would reduce the thrill a bit. 7 meters was a compromis, and as you can see for the screen shots below (only the road where the FZ5 is is the 7meters path where you drive on), it is easy for two cars to go side by side. Moreover, there aren't barriers all the way long, and after testing it, I realized that the only way for you to "fly" was hitting them with your front.

In the video, if you manage to download it (you have to enter a 3 letter code in a small box at the top right of the center frame), you'll see at the end of it a RB4 which crashes on the barriers. I hit the first barrier with the back of the car, which led to oversteer, and going with the front of my car to another barrier, which made me roll (not flying crazy), very realistically.
I was at around 120-130 km/h when I hit those barriers, which is pretty fast for a corner in this layout.

So basically, on this specific layout the only way for you to fly is to have a frontal collision at a great speed with one of the barriers of this layout. And this can happen only in entries, in some corners (because as you can see, both side of the road are not covered with barriers) where barriers are at the outside. Midcorner and at exits, you aren't generally facing the barriers enough to make you fly. It might though damage a bit your suspension if you hit it hard enough with your side.

As you can see on the following screenshots, since the FZ5 is the largest car we have here, this layout allows easily goind neck and neck on the straights, and without much problem for the corners. May I add that the rumble pads are not included in the 7meters, and the marshalls I have put on the side only prevent using the grass for cutting, and not going on the rumble pads.

Enjoy the screen shots

Quote from March Hare :

Better learn to drive then, don't you think?

Sounds interesting. I especially like the Road Going setups idea. But how are you going to monitor the setups? Because if there are points to be gained people will cheat. And are we allowed to change anything on the Bob Smith sets? Tyre pressures?

If the dates and times work I'll be there driving a Road Going XRG.

PS. We really do need a mountain track in LFS.

Thanks for the comment.

I wonder how I can monitor the setups, as this is the biggest issue. CTRA can check the intake restriction, so maybe a similar InSim app can check the values of the other stuff.
Yeah i think the tire press should be adjustable for the road Going, as this value might be the only one you can easily change IRL. Same could apply for the passengers (2 passengers standard for the Road Going maybe suppress them for 1).