Quote from Dizzydarryn :

Why dont you like the WR sets?

what id reccommend, would be to play around between ur set and the WR set, by doing this you'de also be learning what changes actually do i.e. softer front damping improves front traction and so on!

As for the technical stuff, let me rather not comment

Well, it's not that I don't like the WR setups, but I really don't like the understeer caused by the locked diff (in entries).

About the front damping, well a softer front damping improves front traction in entries and rear in exits, in a FR car with more mass on the front up to a certain point. Indeed, if your front damping is set too low, you will transfer too much weight for the front tires to carry, which will result in an understeer (especially in some fern bay corners, such as the hairpin in the FE1R FE3R configuration).

Thanks for the help

Hey there guys, I did a quick search but did not find any useful topics concerning my problem.

I have a really big problem with the XRG@Fern Bay, especially FE1, FE1R, FE3 and FE3R.
Basically, it feels like my tires do not have grip at all (normals obviously), so i usually get a really bad understeer in entries, and a really bad oversteer in exits, which makes my times stagnate quite far from the WR.
I tried with a lot of different pressures (I usually was riding with 175-180 kpa on both the front and the rear), and it seems I get this problem all the time.

It may come from my suspension, I have a tad stiffer springs and ARB than the WR setups (I like it better), the same rear damping, and a tad stiffer front damping, because I found it optimized more the tire heating and the overall handling. I have the same ratios for spring/ARB stiffnesses
I ride with a 80% Clutch Pack LSD, with 150 preload in order to facilitate my entries without sacrifying much exit power. I ride with no toe, and my camber is -4.1 at the rear and -2.3 at the front, which I'm very comfortable with.

So please can someone give me some advices about the way to improve the setup, and maybe my driving technique (I usually trail brake around the corners, but my brake bias is only 68% so I don't really understeer bad).

Usually, my front wheels start losing grip just a moment after I entered the corner, and my rear wheels some moments after putting the power down (like they grip weel for half a second, then one spins).

Thank you so much for any advice

Quote from Ruben_Drifter :

Hey that's me!! So, if I chased you is because you did something wrong, right? And if I fined you to speed, illegal parking or crashing is because YOU DID, ok? Nothing more to say


And is that our problem? Officers/members were responsability and if we chased was because someone wasn't doing something right, ok? Nothing more to say

I just think you guys should take this really less seriously... The bad opinion about cruise servers isn't made by the cruisers themselves (there is more of a misunderstanding), but by the "authorities " (sorry I can't help laughing when I say that word) who act even weirder than the ones IRL...
Come on, the fun about a chase isn't the fine and catching the bad guy, it's the chase itself dudes...

The only fun memory I had in a cruise server was in TC Montana was when some cops prevented me a friend form drifting, we ended up doing polka dances with them, then we had a very fun chase, and finally a wrek/rape fest with them and the towboy. I stopped putting a step in those servers when I saw some cops doing nothing but taking their "duty" way too seriously to be credible/fun and when people started telling on other guys because they touched him lightly or were driving on the wrong side of the road.

So now, every time I try to picture a cruise cop, only this comes to my mind.

Well you can "simulate" a realisticalish brake glow by reducing the size of the your rear lights in the .dds file, and putting as an effect layer a "external light" of a reddish color, too dark to be noticeable when you're not braking.
It goes like this. (see attached pics).

For now, we don't see glow in the rear lights because they do not emit some kind of light, the texture just gets colored brighter

Quote from jayhawk :

And here I thought the British were the masters of sarcasm....

Well I was not really sarcastic, I was just stating the universally accepted fact the the US police system... sucks?

Quote from DAG00BER :

i have noticed on the ctra servers i have had like 1/20 races that were good that i completed on the lead lap because i get into the server and i start near the back of the pack. the front 4 guys always seem to be really good and should be advanced to the next ctra level but i guess they decide they dont want a challange and just like to make it extremely hard for people not as fast as them get points. the people i get stuck racing with usually spin infront of me in t1 or t2 or slam into me later in the race. i think there should be something that made these racers that should advance to the next level not be able to race in the lower level as much or have more restrictions in the lower level racing. and the people who spin out and crash other people get temp bans (like 1 hour to practice in single player on that track) for crashing people alot.

/rant

I agree about the restrictions for the fast racers. It is very annoying to try to get points, when platinum or gold racers race with a pace 1second off the WR...
But not for the temp ban, this is what happens IRL with low-level drivers, so they'll learn after time

Then I think it is a good project.
Check your PMs

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

Hi racers,

i have a plan to start an association of teams to make following things for new and existing leagues.

- a standard sporting codex for racers
i know there is a sporting codex in all your minds, but it never has been written down.

- partial standard regulations for leagues (interesting for new leagues)
i am thinking about a bunch of standard regulations which can be used to build your own regulations as easy as playing with lego blocks, so everyone has a chance to make a reliable rule book by themselves.
the procedure should be like this: choosing qualy mode, choosing race mode with pitstop regulation, car classes -> rule book ready for use!
maybe as a small honoration that they use this system, they can get a league certification.

- standard restrictor based classes (like babyUFR and GT2)
this is a thing i hate especially the gt2 class is different in all leagues.... ctra has another system as moe, moe has another one as gtcc.... for all leagues you have to build another setup and so on. my dream is that i dont have to make 3 sets for one car

- maybe you have suggestions?
its just an idea for now, so suggestions are welcome

So basically, you're trying to create a virtual FIA? ^^

I like the idea, but I'm sure every league has its reasons for having a certain restriction for the GT2 (per say).
Maybe you should try to speak with them and find a mutual agreement on the restrictions!

For the general rulebook (apart from the sporting guide), it's a good idea, however, please make sure to let it a bit free, so as to adapt to the evolutions of LFS, or the upcoming of new leagues .

Finally, maybe you could give your "organization", the idea of a "quality stamp"? Like "The MOE is supported by <insert your name here>". And I'm sure that it would be possible to make some money with sponsors
If you need some help, I'll be glad to join

Quote from 5haz :

Banned suddenly, as opposed to banned gradually? How do you get banned gradually?

I still maintain that cruise servers give you a good idea of what road driving would be like in Nazi Germany, just about anyone will 'inform' on you for minor offences and the cops actually take the whole thing so seriously its laughahble, like as if they are Sturmabteilung taking much joy in beating their victims half to death for not complying to the server's ideals. Also you progress up the ranks through intensive education and training, to become a true aryan COP.

Very true.
It feels like driving on american roads. Every time you get pulled-up for speeding (1 mile over the highway 55 mph limit yay), they ask for checking your car for marijuana if you're young. If you refuse (which is your constitutionnal right), they threat you to take you to jail and call the canine brigade which will be likely to smell anything but marijuana (they react to fuel...), and you'll have your car opened and taken to jail for no apparent reason.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

For what I know the classes really don't serve any purpose gameplay wise, as there is no class ranking. So it's basically up to server admins and insim programmers to set their servers up the way you suggest.

I hear your point, and I agree on the fact that you can virtually create classes with the appropriate restrictions on each car. However, my suggestion was meant to facilitate this process, and especially for the pick-up races, so that people wouldn't have to enter with restrictions in such servers.

Hey there!

I was computing every suggestion about new cars/new classes, and I came up with that idea.

What would you think if the new cars, instead of belonging to only one class, would belong to more than one (let's say 2 for the example)?

Example:
- If you look at the hotlap charts, the LX4 times match pretty well those of the TBO's on the majority of the tracks. So, if we had a car (let's call it New Car : NCR) that would match the LX4 in terms of pure performance (handling, acceleration, speed, power-to-weight ratio), it would create 2 new classes:

Intermediate sport cars - IMS (LX4, NCR, XRT, RB4, FXO) would now have two subclasses:
- Autocross (AUX) : LX4, NCR
- Turbo (TBO) : XRT, FXO, RB4

So the two "new" classes would be the AUX and the IMS. Assuming that IMS and AUX already exist because of the LX4, the addition of one new car would improve two classes instead of improving only one.
In that case, any addition of 1 car will satisfy more than one player.
If we create some more "supraclasses" (nothing to do with the Toyota Supra), assuming that the classes we have now are "subclasses", the possibility of the diversity of events could be well increased.

Please rate and comment constructively

I voted for JO53PHS' because I find it original and well-done : you don't see many snow edits, and moreover you don't see snow edits of that quality!

In Tavi's picture, there is only one thing that I find really huge is the light on the slicks. This is really well done. However, for the rest of the car, I'm sorry, but it's too shiny to be realistic. I saw some FSAE cars (I'm in Seattle for a year and they run in that competition), and most of the paint is really matte (aka-no metallic reflection). So overally, the only impressive thing in that picture are the tires, which are extremely realistic.

Quote from Crashgate3 :

The CTRA servers are a good place to learn about driving with other people online, as they're always well populated, and as they're tiered (you'll only be able to join the Race 1 servers at first) you'll usually find yourself up against people of a similar skill to you.

Well, they are apparently tiered, but when I raced in race 1 a lot, I found more Silver/Gold/Platinum racers than Copper or Bronze, which made it really hard to get enough points. Especially when that platinum guys holds laps at 1 secs from the WR, you just can't match when you're a beginner.

Please prevent the people above from Silver to get in CTRA1, PLEASE

Quote from misiek08 :

Smoke is in mirrors beacuse I must brake

So assuming you are a guy who knows the physics of the real world, how can brake make you go faster when they are meant to slow you down?

You know, everyone can acheive those speeds with the appropriate program... At least, do it with tweak, instead of having a speedhack. Either way, this is nothing spectacular...

Quote from Scatter :

We don't need one. That's like saying there should be an Arabian drift forum, a demo forum, a cruise forum, a banger forum, a rallycross forum, etc.

People don't have to see this thread either but they have the urge or the bravery to express their opinion. And express it they do. It's all about behavior really and besides, this is a community connected by the amazing (and disgusting) Internet, not a segregated forum.

Though this discussion is beaten far past death and the afterlife, I really like some of the more intelligent bits of input or insight given to us by people like Zen or Tristan. If there was any easier way to understand the concept of slip angles and tire dynamics, this thread had it in between the arguments (not exactly where I would like it but knowledge is power!).

Thank you very much for the cheer comment!

You are right, and something people do not understand properly is that they would find the answer to their theories a lot faster "in game" than here.
Before trying to learn the theory, I experimented things in races, spend I don't know how many hours on my setup, to finally get a satisfying output, then I tried to understand my behavior regarding the theory, and if there was a contradiction, I tried to change my way

Quote from MAGGOT :

I think it's a terrible idea - Most (probably all) WR's use lines that are either technically illegal (if properly governed) or are lines that over the course of a race would destroy the car. The ideal line shown by the 4 command is the ideal racing line - a balance between speed and race-longevity. Not only that, but it is the generic line for someone learning the track.

Well I don't think it is the real ideal racing line, it is more the theoretical ideal racing line.
When I learn a combo, I don't drive with it, I do a fly-over the track with it enabled, but taking it would be slow in some corners. I did not find any late/early apexes in the line, because it always goes by the geometrical center of the corner. Check the Aston 2 hairpins in the club configuration. While the first hairpin is more a standard apex, the second hairpin has an apex a tad later than what indicates the racing line
Moreover, the ideal real racing depends on the car, and it would really be different for FR to RR cars (understeer in exits/oversteer in exits).

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

No offense or anything, but if you need to learn a track using the "4" feature, then maybe you're playing the wrong kinda game.

Although there's an 'ideal' line, it's rather generic. Individual drivers have their own lines, that work for them and their driving style. Try to 'take' it from them, and you'll either end up crashing or being nowhere near as fast.

Try practising offline or with freinds, it'll be much better than following a WR line or using "4".

Can't agree more

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

People actually use 'Send To...'? It loads so slowly it gets on my nerves when I accidentally trigger it

I just use "Send To" to create shortcuts on the desktop. Otherwise, copy/paste is my fav ^^

Project Torque is a (bad) game, Live For Speed is a(n awesome) racing simulator. So here you'll mostly find people with the spirit of motorsports

About friends, I suggest you race first instead of knowing the people here then join them Just because while driving, you'll meet people with a similar style than yours, with whom you can share the setups, and even join their team (I suggest you do not start creating one on your own, but more try to join an exisiting and preferably old one).

About the driving, everything comes with the practice. Also, your problems might indicate that you overuse your tires in the good lap you do (check their temperature by pressing F9), which would cause handling problems. If that good lap is lap 1, I suggest you should increase the pressure of your tires (they'll last longer throughout the race, but will perform less well untill they reached the appropriate temperature).

Good point of making your own setups! Try to learn more about car dynamics, so that you can make a setup that matches perfectly your driving style I won't suggest to download and use hotlap setups from Inferno or setupgrid, as a setup needs to be compatible with a specific driver. Some people like those setups very much, I find them too understeery to my liking, while those people find mine too oversteery. It all depends on the driving style
One of the most exciting part of LFS is learning how to build a good setup. I can't drive well now, because I only have my touchpad untill next June (when I get back to France), but I use this time to perfect my knowledge and my favourites setups, and I have to say it works!

Try to change the view settings by increasing the field of view to 110°, the Y axis to the maximum, inclination to -5° and lower the Z axis untill you have a compromise between seeing the track and seeing the dashboard (which is kinda useful, isn't it ? )

Also, a bit of advice, there are three K(eys) you need to be conscious of while driving:
- Knowledge of yourself : what you can do, can't do, what are your limits, are you more fast-in or slow-in, can you drive around corners side by side with another car, etc... ?
- Knowledge of the car : how do the car you drive behaves to your inputs, how can tweaking the setup make it more competitive, what is your maximum steering angle before the wheels start screaming, etc...
- Knowledge of the track : the basic line, plus its variant (early/late apexes), the bumps, which corners have on or off camber, etc...

It sure seems hard, but it is a great adventure I'm sure you'll enjoy

Good luck!

Best wishes,

Robin.

Quote from VoiD :

Thanks for bumping an useless 3/4 year old thread/poll...

Especially when he did not get the sarcasm

Right click on "LFS.exe", "Send to" > "Desktop (create a shortcut)" And you are done

Even if the LX6 is Front engined, the mass repartition makes it behave like a mid-ship or rear engined RWD.
So basically :
- Understeer in entries
- Oversteer in exits.

To tame that, the WR setups usually use a combination of suspension/differential that help them oversteer slightly in entries to increase the turn-in. That is why you catch a big slide.

I would suggest trying to tame it first with the hard-track/Race_S setups, as they are not too performant and a good way to understand the basic reactions of the car.
Also, as someone said in the previous page : tap the button. The LX cars are light and all about smoothness of inputs, which you can only acheive with a proper gaming wheel. Meanwhile, tapping the buttons will help a lot to maintain the balance

Final Entry !

Hope you enjoy it Don't worry, no platypuses on this one this time!

Quote from nisskid :

yeh this is what was being contested early on in the thread, tristan was saying that a car should be on the rear tyres limit through the whole of the corner including mid-corner.

Well, there must have been a misunderstanding about what is called the limit. If it is the grip limit, then no. but I think Tristan was more referring to the "Slip Zone", which is the limit of traction. In that case, he is right.

Driving in the Slip Zone is basically sacrifying a bit of lateral grip to combine the remaining lateral grip with some longitudinal grip to acheive more overall grip. So, in that sense, you stay at the limit of traction even if your rear is lightly sliding

Quote from March Hare :

This thread has gone all mushy. We need more arguing!

I have to argue with you, because I don't think that thread got mushy! It has stayed at the traction limit of mushyness, without going into the downward slope with a high angle.

Quote from nisskid :

i think you'd be surprised at how close our opinions are.

i think you could probably say its between the first real turn in towards the apex, and before you go full throttle.

i remember a quote from a top gear episode a while back where a former F1 driver was teaching jeremy to race, and he said don't hit the throttle until you know you wont have to back off for the rest of the corner.

which once again feeds my statement that mid corner the rear tyres are not doing as much as the fronts are without acceleration or much decceleration, and that during that period the front tyres are the limiting factor.

Okay, that's why I wanted you to precise what you called mid-corner
So yeah, sliding in the first part of the corner is good. You are right when you say that the front tires are the limiting factor : because they usually have enough grip during this transient.

There are two ways to make the front tires lose grip during a slide :
- Accelerate (to shift the masses toward the rear)
- Do not countersteer, or countersteer too lightly.

This is why in fast slides, you see the drivers countersteering, but just very lightly, just before the point where the front tires usually have much more grip than the rear, which will make your car behave like in a "show" drift. You, obviously won't touch the throttle yet, since you don't have hit the apex yet.
Also, it is important to note that applying lightly the brakes between the entry and the apex is better to induce understeer, than countersteering, since your car won't see its momentum broken.

Once again, this can only be useful in cars that are tuned to improve the mass transfers effects. And it also depends on the kind of corner, the track, the tires obviously, etc..