Quote from Ruben_Drifter :

Hey that's me!! So, if I chased you is because you did something wrong, right? And if I fined you to speed, illegal parking or crashing is because YOU DID, ok? Nothing more to say


And is that our problem? Officers/members were responsability and if we chased was because someone wasn't doing something right, ok? Nothing more to say

I just think you guys should take this really less seriously... The bad opinion about cruise servers isn't made by the cruisers themselves (there is more of a misunderstanding), but by the "authorities " (sorry I can't help laughing when I say that word) who act even weirder than the ones IRL...
Come on, the fun about a chase isn't the fine and catching the bad guy, it's the chase itself dudes...

The only fun memory I had in a cruise server was in TC Montana was when some cops prevented me a friend form drifting, we ended up doing polka dances with them, then we had a very fun chase, and finally a wrek/rape fest with them and the towboy. I stopped putting a step in those servers when I saw some cops doing nothing but taking their "duty" way too seriously to be credible/fun and when people started telling on other guys because they touched him lightly or were driving on the wrong side of the road.

So now, every time I try to picture a cruise cop, only this comes to my mind.

Well you can "simulate" a realisticalish brake glow by reducing the size of the your rear lights in the .dds file, and putting as an effect layer a "external light" of a reddish color, too dark to be noticeable when you're not braking.
It goes like this. (see attached pics).

For now, we don't see glow in the rear lights because they do not emit some kind of light, the texture just gets colored brighter

Quote from jayhawk :

And here I thought the British were the masters of sarcasm....

Well I was not really sarcastic, I was just stating the universally accepted fact the the US police system... sucks?

Then I think it is a good project.
Check your PMs

Quote from Trekkerfahrer :

Hi racers,

i have a plan to start an association of teams to make following things for new and existing leagues.

- a standard sporting codex for racers
i know there is a sporting codex in all your minds, but it never has been written down.

- partial standard regulations for leagues (interesting for new leagues)
i am thinking about a bunch of standard regulations which can be used to build your own regulations as easy as playing with lego blocks, so everyone has a chance to make a reliable rule book by themselves.
the procedure should be like this: choosing qualy mode, choosing race mode with pitstop regulation, car classes -> rule book ready for use!
maybe as a small honoration that they use this system, they can get a league certification.

- standard restrictor based classes (like babyUFR and GT2)
this is a thing i hate especially the gt2 class is different in all leagues.... ctra has another system as moe, moe has another one as gtcc.... for all leagues you have to build another setup and so on. my dream is that i dont have to make 3 sets for one car

- maybe you have suggestions?
its just an idea for now, so suggestions are welcome

So basically, you're trying to create a virtual FIA? ^^

I like the idea, but I'm sure every league has its reasons for having a certain restriction for the GT2 (per say).
Maybe you should try to speak with them and find a mutual agreement on the restrictions!

For the general rulebook (apart from the sporting guide), it's a good idea, however, please make sure to let it a bit free, so as to adapt to the evolutions of LFS, or the upcoming of new leagues .

Finally, maybe you could give your "organization", the idea of a "quality stamp"? Like "The MOE is supported by <insert your name here>". And I'm sure that it would be possible to make some money with sponsors
If you need some help, I'll be glad to join

Quote from 5haz :

Banned suddenly, as opposed to banned gradually? How do you get banned gradually?

I still maintain that cruise servers give you a good idea of what road driving would be like in Nazi Germany, just about anyone will 'inform' on you for minor offences and the cops actually take the whole thing so seriously its laughahble, like as if they are Sturmabteilung taking much joy in beating their victims half to death for not complying to the server's ideals. Also you progress up the ranks through intensive education and training, to become a true aryan COP.

Very true.
It feels like driving on american roads. Every time you get pulled-up for speeding (1 mile over the highway 55 mph limit yay), they ask for checking your car for marijuana if you're young. If you refuse (which is your constitutionnal right), they threat you to take you to jail and call the canine brigade which will be likely to smell anything but marijuana (they react to fuel...), and you'll have your car opened and taken to jail for no apparent reason.

Quote from ColeusRattus :

For what I know the classes really don't serve any purpose gameplay wise, as there is no class ranking. So it's basically up to server admins and insim programmers to set their servers up the way you suggest.

I hear your point, and I agree on the fact that you can virtually create classes with the appropriate restrictions on each car. However, my suggestion was meant to facilitate this process, and especially for the pick-up races, so that people wouldn't have to enter with restrictions in such servers.

Hey there!

I was computing every suggestion about new cars/new classes, and I came up with that idea.

What would you think if the new cars, instead of belonging to only one class, would belong to more than one (let's say 2 for the example)?

Example:
- If you look at the hotlap charts, the LX4 times match pretty well those of the TBO's on the majority of the tracks. So, if we had a car (let's call it New Car : NCR) that would match the LX4 in terms of pure performance (handling, acceleration, speed, power-to-weight ratio), it would create 2 new classes:

Intermediate sport cars - IMS (LX4, NCR, XRT, RB4, FXO) would now have two subclasses:
- Autocross (AUX) : LX4, NCR
- Turbo (TBO) : XRT, FXO, RB4

So the two "new" classes would be the AUX and the IMS. Assuming that IMS and AUX already exist because of the LX4, the addition of one new car would improve two classes instead of improving only one.
In that case, any addition of 1 car will satisfy more than one player.
If we create some more "supraclasses" (nothing to do with the Toyota Supra), assuming that the classes we have now are "subclasses", the possibility of the diversity of events could be well increased.

Please rate and comment constructively

I voted for JO53PHS' because I find it original and well-done : you don't see many snow edits, and moreover you don't see snow edits of that quality!

In Tavi's picture, there is only one thing that I find really huge is the light on the slicks. This is really well done. However, for the rest of the car, I'm sorry, but it's too shiny to be realistic. I saw some FSAE cars (I'm in Seattle for a year and they run in that competition), and most of the paint is really matte (aka-no metallic reflection). So overally, the only impressive thing in that picture are the tires, which are extremely realistic.

Quote from Crashgate3 :

The CTRA servers are a good place to learn about driving with other people online, as they're always well populated, and as they're tiered (you'll only be able to join the Race 1 servers at first) you'll usually find yourself up against people of a similar skill to you.

Well, they are apparently tiered, but when I raced in race 1 a lot, I found more Silver/Gold/Platinum racers than Copper or Bronze, which made it really hard to get enough points. Especially when that platinum guys holds laps at 1 secs from the WR, you just can't match when you're a beginner.

Please prevent the people above from Silver to get in CTRA1, PLEASE

Quote from misiek08 :

Smoke is in mirrors beacuse I must brake

So assuming you are a guy who knows the physics of the real world, how can brake make you go faster when they are meant to slow you down?

You know, everyone can acheive those speeds with the appropriate program... At least, do it with tweak, instead of having a speedhack. Either way, this is nothing spectacular...

Quote from Scatter :

We don't need one. That's like saying there should be an Arabian drift forum, a demo forum, a cruise forum, a banger forum, a rallycross forum, etc.

People don't have to see this thread either but they have the urge or the bravery to express their opinion. And express it they do. It's all about behavior really and besides, this is a community connected by the amazing (and disgusting) Internet, not a segregated forum.

Though this discussion is beaten far past death and the afterlife, I really like some of the more intelligent bits of input or insight given to us by people like Zen or Tristan. If there was any easier way to understand the concept of slip angles and tire dynamics, this thread had it in between the arguments (not exactly where I would like it but knowledge is power!).

Thank you very much for the cheer comment!

You are right, and something people do not understand properly is that they would find the answer to their theories a lot faster "in game" than here.
Before trying to learn the theory, I experimented things in races, spend I don't know how many hours on my setup, to finally get a satisfying output, then I tried to understand my behavior regarding the theory, and if there was a contradiction, I tried to change my way

Quote from MAGGOT :

I think it's a terrible idea - Most (probably all) WR's use lines that are either technically illegal (if properly governed) or are lines that over the course of a race would destroy the car. The ideal line shown by the 4 command is the ideal racing line - a balance between speed and race-longevity. Not only that, but it is the generic line for someone learning the track.

Well I don't think it is the real ideal racing line, it is more the theoretical ideal racing line.
When I learn a combo, I don't drive with it, I do a fly-over the track with it enabled, but taking it would be slow in some corners. I did not find any late/early apexes in the line, because it always goes by the geometrical center of the corner. Check the Aston 2 hairpins in the club configuration. While the first hairpin is more a standard apex, the second hairpin has an apex a tad later than what indicates the racing line
Moreover, the ideal real racing depends on the car, and it would really be different for FR to RR cars (understeer in exits/oversteer in exits).

Quote from S14 DRIFT :

No offense or anything, but if you need to learn a track using the "4" feature, then maybe you're playing the wrong kinda game.

Although there's an 'ideal' line, it's rather generic. Individual drivers have their own lines, that work for them and their driving style. Try to 'take' it from them, and you'll either end up crashing or being nowhere near as fast.

Try practising offline or with freinds, it'll be much better than following a WR line or using "4".

Can't agree more

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

People actually use 'Send To...'? It loads so slowly it gets on my nerves when I accidentally trigger it

I just use "Send To" to create shortcuts on the desktop. Otherwise, copy/paste is my fav ^^

Project Torque is a (bad) game, Live For Speed is a(n awesome) racing simulator. So here you'll mostly find people with the spirit of motorsports

About friends, I suggest you race first instead of knowing the people here then join them Just because while driving, you'll meet people with a similar style than yours, with whom you can share the setups, and even join their team (I suggest you do not start creating one on your own, but more try to join an exisiting and preferably old one).

About the driving, everything comes with the practice. Also, your problems might indicate that you overuse your tires in the good lap you do (check their temperature by pressing F9), which would cause handling problems. If that good lap is lap 1, I suggest you should increase the pressure of your tires (they'll last longer throughout the race, but will perform less well untill they reached the appropriate temperature).

Good point of making your own setups! Try to learn more about car dynamics, so that you can make a setup that matches perfectly your driving style I won't suggest to download and use hotlap setups from Inferno or setupgrid, as a setup needs to be compatible with a specific driver. Some people like those setups very much, I find them too understeery to my liking, while those people find mine too oversteery. It all depends on the driving style
One of the most exciting part of LFS is learning how to build a good setup. I can't drive well now, because I only have my touchpad untill next June (when I get back to France), but I use this time to perfect my knowledge and my favourites setups, and I have to say it works!

Try to change the view settings by increasing the field of view to 110°, the Y axis to the maximum, inclination to -5° and lower the Z axis untill you have a compromise between seeing the track and seeing the dashboard (which is kinda useful, isn't it ? )

Also, a bit of advice, there are three K(eys) you need to be conscious of while driving:
- Knowledge of yourself : what you can do, can't do, what are your limits, are you more fast-in or slow-in, can you drive around corners side by side with another car, etc... ?
- Knowledge of the car : how do the car you drive behaves to your inputs, how can tweaking the setup make it more competitive, what is your maximum steering angle before the wheels start screaming, etc...
- Knowledge of the track : the basic line, plus its variant (early/late apexes), the bumps, which corners have on or off camber, etc...

It sure seems hard, but it is a great adventure I'm sure you'll enjoy

Good luck!

Best wishes,

Robin.

Quote from VoiD :

Thanks for bumping an useless 3/4 year old thread/poll...

Especially when he did not get the sarcasm

Right click on "LFS.exe", "Send to" > "Desktop (create a shortcut)" And you are done

Even if the LX6 is Front engined, the mass repartition makes it behave like a mid-ship or rear engined RWD.
So basically :
- Understeer in entries
- Oversteer in exits.

To tame that, the WR setups usually use a combination of suspension/differential that help them oversteer slightly in entries to increase the turn-in. That is why you catch a big slide.

I would suggest trying to tame it first with the hard-track/Race_S setups, as they are not too performant and a good way to understand the basic reactions of the car.
Also, as someone said in the previous page : tap the button. The LX cars are light and all about smoothness of inputs, which you can only acheive with a proper gaming wheel. Meanwhile, tapping the buttons will help a lot to maintain the balance

Final Entry !

Hope you enjoy it Don't worry, no platypuses on this one this time!

Quote from nisskid :

yeh this is what was being contested early on in the thread, tristan was saying that a car should be on the rear tyres limit through the whole of the corner including mid-corner.

Well, there must have been a misunderstanding about what is called the limit. If it is the grip limit, then no. but I think Tristan was more referring to the "Slip Zone", which is the limit of traction. In that case, he is right.

Driving in the Slip Zone is basically sacrifying a bit of lateral grip to combine the remaining lateral grip with some longitudinal grip to acheive more overall grip. So, in that sense, you stay at the limit of traction even if your rear is lightly sliding

Quote from March Hare :

This thread has gone all mushy. We need more arguing!

I have to argue with you, because I don't think that thread got mushy! It has stayed at the traction limit of mushyness, without going into the downward slope with a high angle.

Quote from nisskid :

i think you'd be surprised at how close our opinions are.

i think you could probably say its between the first real turn in towards the apex, and before you go full throttle.

i remember a quote from a top gear episode a while back where a former F1 driver was teaching jeremy to race, and he said don't hit the throttle until you know you wont have to back off for the rest of the corner.

which once again feeds my statement that mid corner the rear tyres are not doing as much as the fronts are without acceleration or much decceleration, and that during that period the front tyres are the limiting factor.

Okay, that's why I wanted you to precise what you called mid-corner
So yeah, sliding in the first part of the corner is good. You are right when you say that the front tires are the limiting factor : because they usually have enough grip during this transient.

There are two ways to make the front tires lose grip during a slide :
- Accelerate (to shift the masses toward the rear)
- Do not countersteer, or countersteer too lightly.

This is why in fast slides, you see the drivers countersteering, but just very lightly, just before the point where the front tires usually have much more grip than the rear, which will make your car behave like in a "show" drift. You, obviously won't touch the throttle yet, since you don't have hit the apex yet.
Also, it is important to note that applying lightly the brakes between the entry and the apex is better to induce understeer, than countersteering, since your car won't see its momentum broken.

Once again, this can only be useful in cars that are tuned to improve the mass transfers effects. And it also depends on the kind of corner, the track, the tires obviously, etc..

Quote from nisskid :

let's remember though simply having oversteer on the exit of the corner is not drift, in fact it's the opposite really of what a fast drift is aiming at, those instances where he has oversteer on the exit are usually as a result of maintaining traction mid corner.

a fast drift is all mid corner with as little entry drift as you can manage, this is because this is where the rears are doing the least work, when you start exiting the corner and working the rear tyres you want to be straight again with full traction on the rears.

like i said it's a shame the style shown in the vid wasnt continued and refined, as obviously it is very rough, but i think it has massive potential, especially for the low powered RWD cars through tight courses where they have sharper corners and less room to apex the corner.

I think you have a wrong idea of cornering. I am by now way condescendent or harsh, and I don't mean to be that way.
You have to think about transients. Let's take the different transients of cornering :
*) Increasing brakes while increasing turn in | Understeer
1) Decreasing brakes/throttle while increasing turn in | Oversteer
2) 0 foot input while increasing turn in | Neutral
3) Increasing throttle while decreasing turn in | Understeer

Those are the four basics effects of cornering with a FR car. (what the car will tend to do on it's own). So, what you call mid-corner, would be the moment where the only inputs are the steering ones, because it occurs between the moment of right before you hit the apex and right after hitting it?
If it is the case, then you are wrong to assume the most important phase of a fast drift occurs here. There are actually two types of fast drifts (low angle - based on the tires' slip angle - lots of grip even if sliding - constant "relative angle" with the racing line, and progressive angle with the exit direction - 4 wheels are sliding) :

A) One which is very entry-oriented, in which you enter the corner with a tad more speed than you would do if you kept your tires sticking to the road. During transient 1, you get your tire to the angle you like. If you catch too much angle, and think that it could jeopardize your balance when you'll apply the throttle, then you use very briefly transient * to stabilize the angle. During transient 2, your car should keep the same momentum, and the same "relative angle". During transient 3, your car will still slide a bit, and regain the grip roughly around halfway between the apex and the exit point.
This is done mainly in tight corners, where sliding can help carrying the momentum, on low powered and light cars. The angles can be "quite high" here, depending on the nature of the corner, its line, whether it is uphill or downhill, etc.
B) One which is more exit-oriented than A. In transient one, you launch your car so that it will have a lower angle than in A. In transient two, you do nothing, and by the time you have reached the apex, you'll start regaining grip, and exit in transient 3 as a normal exit. This is better for either fast corners, or heavy cars, in order to prevent the inertia to create unwanted extra-understeer.

So basically, mid-corner should only be a non-important, transition point. Why ? Because if you try to kepe the traction in transient 1, then slide in transient two, and keep the traction in transient 3, you'll just break the momentum of the car. Breaking momentum = Slower.

I have to say that the transient I said above are the general behavior of a FR car regarding the mass transfers. A MR or RR car would have entry understeer (too much weight at the rear) and exit oversteer (the rear weighs too much for the tires to handle, and it is easy to break it free).
A slide is useful only if your setup behaves in order to increase the effects of the mass transfers.
This is why we can't say that a slide if always faster or always slower than not sliding. It depends on how the driver drives and how the car is set up. If it is set up for stability, then sticking to the road would be faster (if one of the ends break free, then you'll understeer really bad). If your car is set up to use the mass transfers as a way to increase it's cornering power (low front damping/high rear damping for FR cars | high front damping/compression-rebound rear damping quasi equal for a MR-RR car), then you might consider sliding.

But, stop the OT : please precise what you call mid-corner. Does it matches the definition it gave above? Otherwise, please explain

Quote from nisskid :

as i said there was quite a few mistakes, but i think you missed the point, i was trying to demonstrate the origins of drift and how they originally took on quite a fast form, one of keiichi's biggest errors there was line which was killing his speed, but as far as car balance there were only a few errors there in his drift which caused dramatic speed loss.

Wrong.

His dramatic speed loss is not due to his line, which are okay, but it is due to the difference in slip angles between front wheels and rear wheels.

Look at how much he needs to countersteer to keep the full throttle to prevent spinning (the rear wheels spin really hard on the downhill part).
As I said, Tsuchiya made Pluspy and Pluspy II as show drift (holding the drift longer than what is optimal, and with a too high angle and difference of angle between the frnt and the rear wheels). As I said, he intentionally made this video for fun show drift, because he is more skilled than that.

So this video has got nothing to do with the origins of drift. People say that drift (with your meaning : a way to clear corners faster) was born in the mountain of Japan, which is wrong again : it was popularized in the street culture, because of the nature of the track (low grip, tight corners and winding path where entry speed matters slightly more than exit speed).
However, it existed back in the 60's, especially on the Porsches (mid-ship, so exit oversteer was not really avoidable at that time, even with the best setups), would it be for track or asphalt rallye racing.

We agree that sliding was at first a way to be fast, and bbman explained also why. We also agree that drift now is a motorsport based on show. And we agree also that sliding is not fast in every situation : since it is more demanding on the tires, people would actually do it on short runs, and only on some corners where the gain of being in the slip-zone is much more important that having your 4 wheels gripping on the road. We finally agree that oversteer slide (from the wheel POV : front grip, rear no grip) at the exits will always be slower than having your rearies grip the road (on a RWD).

Quote from Becky Rose :

Actually no LFS' engine already has all the internal workings needed to introduce variable track temperature, using the existing path and picking a small number of points laterally at each node point along it would be more than adequate.

Yes, but then it would not be *that* realistic. To have the most advanced simulation of track heating, the patches of tracks would have to be as small as possible, otherwise you might find yourself driving in a patch of 50x50cm that is heated well, then take the corner too wide, and put your tire on a patch of 50x50cm that is too cold, resulting in a very shapr loss of traction