right, the only thing that seperates 'them' from 'us' is the fact they're out there doing it! Not that they're mythical heroes with balls of steel and loads of natural talent

it's all very well to pick and choose snippets that sound funny... I'm not here to win a courtroom case, I'm here for a discussion. Am happy to be shown to be wrong, as I was very clearly regarding the endurance some forms of racing need, didn't put enough thought in initially. If it makes you feel good to try and rub my face in that acknowledgment then go for your life!

As far as natural talent goes, like I said much earlier in the piece, it depends what level of 'good' you want to talk about. I don't think there'd be many people that would dispute Michael Schumacher has a touch of natural talent up his sleeve, but what about the mid pack runners in a local saloon car race? I dispute the idea that these guys are anything particularly special. Sorry to cause you such ongoing confusion.

Quote from Clownpaint :

That's not true, but then neither is what he's saying. They are both very physically demanding. It just sounds like tit for tat at the moment.

"MY BIKE PWNZ j00z CARS"
"YEAH U TRY RACING MY KART IT PWNZ JooR BIKE!!"

you're right, the potential for it to be taken like that probably didn't help the point at all. Surely, car racing can still be a valid and great sport, without it's physical requirements being of the highest level? There are plenty of old blokes still highly competitive, (obviously not in all forms) whereas many highly demanding sports they're finished by mid 30's...

Sorry, I'd have stopped by now, I feel like everything I've said is being taken out of context though ah well.

Quote from Modoff :

Obliously an lfs er.

"I could hammer my car around a track all day long"

Ok what are you driving a kia. with nice cushions seats and nice soft suspension to absorb all the bumps.

So you think that it is not physically demanding because it doesnt look like it is, looks are decieving. I race karts and a lot of my friends ride dirt bikes quads etc. One race in my kart is way more pyhsically demanding then an hour ride on a quad or dirtbike.

Well as far as you saying that there is no need for natural talent, that is VERY VERY wrong.

Blowtus you shouldnt go around posting about stuff you have no idea. If you have never been in a race car how can you sit there and say its not pyshically demanding, You have no idea so pls dont act like you do.

rx7 turbo, but you're right that it's much more comfortable than the majority of race cars, though I don't see that racing in a 'stock' car class makes you not a 'real racer' either. The point that racing can be very tiring has already been accepted.

I never said there is no need for natural talent, just that I don't believe it's as necessary to achieve success in racing as in many other sports, because the money / time factor is so much more important. (than many other sports) I suspect the same would be true of the huge ocean powerboat racing, around the world yacht racing, space shuttle racing... etc

excellent point Gunn, completely ignored that aspect of the endurance required. Still believe in the other points, and still highly respect those talented enough to be champions.

Clownpaint, what should I read? Some heroic tales of 'real racer' daring do, written by folk like you who love to talk it up?

Quote from Clownpaint :

This is what the thread is all about, you are obviously a LFS'er. That's just not the sort of thing Real Racers would say, because they have experienced it.

you obviously know me very well You clearly hold 'real racers' in some very high esteem, are you one yourself or just a fanboy? I think racing is great, but I don't delude myself with ideas that the drivers are superheroes, very different to the average person...

my trailbike requires a hell of a lot more pure physical ability (strength, endurance, reactions, etc) on a casual ride, let alone an enduro event or the like, than the average race car event, from what I've seen. I could hammer my car around a track all day long and hop out a little stiff and tired, but not too bad. I've not been involved in anything involving panel rubbing, but I can't see that it would make the dramatic differences you seem to imply. I would contend that anyone with the desire, given enough seat time could become competitive in many forms of racing. I believe this to be true for racing a little more than many other sports, though all have some element of this.

Last edited by Blowtus, Sat 31 Dec 2005, 03:58.

Quote from MAGGOT :

Its not just a matter of being exposed to racing, to be a GOOD race car driver you NEED natural talent. All drivers will tell you that. You can only learn/develop so much skill. You need to have it to start with.

Also, race car drivers don't loose their fear, its always with them. They just gain more confidence. There's an old quote, something along the lines of "If you're not afraid, you shouldn't be racing a car."

MAGGOT

Depends how 'good' you mean by good. There are plenty of good drivers and riders who get knocked back because they don't have the sponsorship dollars and connections. I disagree you need natural talent, time in the car and a functional brain can get over most hurdles, racing really isn't that physically demanding or anything, it's just a bunch of learned responses...

fear is a part of it, as far as ability to learn the track / laptimes go. I don't know that race drivers are anything particularly special though, just folk interested in motorsport who've had the opportunity many didn't. Karting is great fun, if I wasn't obsessed with trailbiking on the weekends I'd probably be into that. Would rather be rallying or circuit racing, but don't have the $$$ or time to put the effort in. Same situation as many into lfs, I'd imagine?

don't really see why they'd include the sound effects of a propriety engine management system, that has little use in racing, and produces stupid torque steps...

Much rather they spent the time making the engines sound like engines.

don't really see how 6th would help it much myself. more gears are more useful in cars where the power output is quite peaky. road cars particularly have broad power curves and slow gear changes... gears are great for 'real life' driving, for economical cruising...

pointing out someones 'stupid' thinking on one subject is a bit different to calling them stupid.
the number of racers online at any given moment is not the responsibility of the devs...

Dethred: Why would you pay for an unfinished game, and then complain that you paid for an unfinished game? seems pretty backward to me!

I've done a number of basic trackdays... not exactly 'racing', just throwing the car about.

can't you guys just get involved in some leagues or something and quit worrying about progress reports??

I didn't think you got the effect with anything less than a locked diff, but am unsure. I'm not convinced you'd get that effect in real life either mind you. Would be interested to see. I have a vague suspicion in lfs it would come down to the same problem as the rwd's, just reversed, because the driven wheels are pointing into the corner, rather than out of.

did your old man's mini have a locked dif and large anti roll bar at the rear?

space bar doesn't repair the car...?

I find the s1 tracks much more enjoyable myself, in any car. the shorter aston configs are pretty fun too.

if 'acceptance of the game laws' was all that was needed for a good game, you wouldn't see all of these games having patches produced at sizeable cost to the companies developing them lfs is enjoyable for many because of the relation it bears to 'real life' racing.

it's amazing what tolerant and useful answers have been given to a pile of self important rubbish...
it seems a few people think the devs are capable of making a fantastic racing game, but incapable of making decisions and assesing how to make it? Fairly backwards logic to my mind

is a thread of flame wars over such and such car is better than such and such car, really going to get us anywhere?
fwd is inherantly deficient in a racing scenario. *but* the xfg and fxo are both signifigantly lighter than their rwd counterparts, and have a better power to weight ratio.

I've always thought most people run a setup with too much oversteer.
seriously, if you don't like the way the cars behaving, fix it! you can suspension analyse and suspension frequency all you like, but knowing what the cars doing wrong for you (stepping out under power it sounds like) and fixing it, will make the biggest difference. I've found cars in lfs often require very weird looking settings in order to drive like a 'real' car. Crank up that front anti roll, drop back the rear anti roll. Once the car feels stable enough, adjust your dampers / steering to compensate for any problems with slow turn in etc.

there's nothing temporary about it...

why on earth do people feel 'it's only alpha' is some form of justification? It's a game that people have been paying for and playing for years. There's more to come, great, but this is what we've currently got! What next, someone reviews quake 4 and 'oh, it's only version 1.03, there's patches coming out, you can't review it'??

would love to get rid of the steering arc...