the thing with jet ski / snowboard / other games, is that you can't accurately simulate them because a huge part of the discipline is body movement. The drivers body movement really has no effect in a car, it's all about the movement of the controls, so it can be much more easily simulated...

Quote from george_tsiros :

Debating whether LFS is realistic or not is useless. Stop wasting precious time and go do some laps in a go-kart (a real go-kart. not the MRT).

Why is it useless? One of the reasons I enjoy motorsport (participating, not spectating) is an appreciation / understanding of the physics involved, and how my actions fit in with those constraints. Understanding where LFS gets it wrong is of interest to me, much the same way understanding how the poor head design of my bike affects it's running is, etc. Knowing where LFS is wrong would seem to be part of the task of fixing it. No doubt Scawen understands the consensus opinion by now, but if none of these threads ever appeared, one wonders if he'd have as much reason to be looking at the physics, or would improve them as easily.

How would real tracks help you find that out? Cars don't respond differently on different tracks...

don't see what 'real' tracks has to do with anything myself. Quality tracks however, that's important. Each to their own I guess. Knowing I'm simming on a 'real' track design doesn't aid my experience in any way, it's all racing.

Quote from micha1980de :

despite the fact lfs is a sim, it souldn't mean it's got to be complicated.
so +1 here Woz.
On the other hand, show me any professsional real driver that screws on his car, instead of talking to the mechs.
I like the concept cause, I don't know very much about car-specs and "what " to change to get "this" effect.

there's a lot more folk that race who set their car up than those that don't... lfs doesn't simulate the 'professional' side of things at all as far as I'm aware

I think it'd be more suitable to have a section in the tutorial dedicated to very basic setup, ie the rollbars, the final drive, and maybe tyre pressure. It's really not very difficult to learn how to adjust these things, and they can change the nature of the car enough to suit particular driving styles and race tracks.

Sorry Todd, somehow I misinterpreted your post as referring the skid pad numbers and suggesting lfs should have similar values. You're right, I was being irrelevant...
You did do a lot of typing to say that tyre modeling can cause large changes though

skid pad numbers are not an accurate representation of 'max' g values, for real world driving / racing. They're just something for U.S car mags to write about

I'm pretty sure 'real life' g's are always higher than skidpad tests...

a lot of the setups available for download are hotlap setups, designed for on the edge driving at a very fast pace. Most people create more forgiving race sets, I know I sure do. Being able to create a set that you're able to drive fast with, not destroy tyres, and drive consistently, is a very handy skill... keep at it

it works best for me when I set it up for the most grip, then reduce front camber until flipping is less of a problem.

you really don't sound like you have a temperament suited for hotlapping... it's a fairly frustrating way to play lfs. Why don't you do some leagues / racing instead of worrying so much about times???

lfs is a racing simulator... you can join whatever league you like, you can hotlap, or you can race casually... do you really need the game to tell you what to do???

I don't see how anyone who likes driving cars could fail to see the potential of the game after playing the demo. If they don't like driving the demo I'd suggest they won't like the full thing either...

Eastsiderz, LFS probably doesn't shock you with goodness (sound being the major problem here) straight up like GTR, you can't really add much in the way of mods etc, but it provides a racing experience that others are unable to match, imho.

what point would that really serve though?

how much accel dif locking do you have? drop it down if you're having trouble with throttle spins at low speed.

sense of speed is one of the problems that causes this 'low grip' feel. Was doing a corner on fe gold rev the other day that felt terribly slow, but when I thought about a similar corner I'd done on a track 'in real life', I was going about 20kms an hour faster in the rb4, than my rx7. Real life doesn't feel slow, but the game does at times Obviously that's hardly a scientific measure, but I'd be pretty confident the problem is not with outright grip levels, but with the way the grip 'feels' when you push the limit. There is also the issue of putting power down while cornering, which definately has a way to go...

spend some time learning to set the car up to your liking. if the rear is sliding out, a few things can help. lower accel value on lsd (high values aren't very important in the fox because it's so low powered and grippy) less rear roll bar, lower rear tyre pressure, more rear camber, more rear downforce.
A setup you can drive well will get you far better times and consistency than a setup someone else is fast with. You should be able to get into the 1:10's at least without a setup that's hard to drive.

get involved in racing and get over hotlap times, I'd suggest much more rewarding, I've found...

Quote from XCNuse :

lol you kinda took everything out of that equation by getting laterial G's.. anyways, motion rigs... suck.. lol its not that they are bad, they are extremely well thought out and whatnot, but its still .. not near what it is supposed to do, its impossible to "make" that many effects act through just a few hydrolic pistons, you have vertical G's and lateral G's.. thats 2 aspects, some companys dont do such a good job with those even at that, as for the fact that the forces are acting on you the entire time.. all a machine would do is just maybe tilt you sideways or something, but you still wouldnt be experiencing but a miniscule amount of lateral G's for only a few milliseconds

Sounds like you've never tried one. I haven't either, but I've had the theory explained pretty well. Google will do a much better job than me. Tilting someone sideways and keeping their vision angled the same (ie, screen following same movement) causes them to feel lateral G's, because they believe they are still upright and gravity is now acting on their sides, to a degree. Obviously there are limits to the amount of force gravity can apply, but apparently the same technique is used in fairly hardcore military sim type stuff to good effect.

Quote from mrodgers :

If that is a response to the post above your's, then you are so wrong. It is completely different. As good as driving simulation is and can be, you simply don't feel the same thing. You don't feel the g-forces under accelleration, braking, or cornering. You don't get that feeling in your stomach when you crest over a sharp hill. You don't feel the wind buffetting against your car or tossing you around like in RL. You don't feel the impact into the tire barrier or the corner of the car you just hit.

How can my personal opinion be 'wrong'?? I've given up track days since getting involved in the 'race' scene of LFS, and don't even bother with as many mountain drives. I get my thrill seeking motorsport rushes primarily from my dirtbike now, as I don't find what I was doing in the car to be as worthwhile when I exercise my brain in a similar (in many ways better, because I'm actually 'racing' and have to practice, setup, etc) manner just sitting at home.

funny... I don't find it that different, if I use the gtt as an example. The mind and body are doing all the same things, it just feels and looks a little different.

went from 130fps on 5.10 to 125fps on 5.13. voted for all ok, a few fps is a non issue. athlon 2600 (no ht) and gecube 9550.

Quote from Vain :

2. You can use a dualscreen-setup when you have a dualhead GFX-board. You should be able to adjust the FOV accordingly, spread the screen over two monitors, turn the custom view in LFS 45° to the right and then you should see the front view on the left monitor and the right view on the right monitor.

It's quite evident you haven't tried this There is not enough camera adjustment to make it at all functional. Couldn't really work out why it was so terrible myself.

I guess I was thinking more of a 'wind the throttle plates open' idle adjust than an ecu managed idle control. (driving an 80's efi sportscar you get used to ignoring ecu controls!) No doubt you're right and you wouldn't do it in a real car (to the degree I have anyway) because of braking concerns... not sure if that's a good reason not to have it or not though Maybe it's a good reason to have brake heat and wear simulated

As for flywheel weight, it would make a fairly signifigant difference to traction over bumps / speed of rpm increase during loss of traction, and would be a very nice thing to have simulated once (if?) proper clutch control is available.

I've read 'engine improvement' suggestion threads before and they always seemed unnecessary, verging on ridiculous... just thought things like this would make more sense though. Obviously I'm not suggesting it's at all a necessity, just that it would be an 'improvement'.