Quote from lalathegreat :

Thats debatable. Not every one likes the same types of engines. i myself don't like V motors(road cars) and if given the choice would pick a inline block before it.
Some may like High reving engines while others like more torque.

even if the v motor was slower? Seems like a funny concept just for the sake of some boganism

Quote from lalathegreat :

Maybe its a european thing (most people on here are from europe) but it seems a majority of the people here are more concerened with racing telemetry than Setting up the car in terms of strategy. am not saying its as a bad thing.

i know am not the fastest driver and i think its neat to beable to be competive on another level than telemetry.

So to the original poster not many people seem see the value of such a system.

what do you mean by 'racing telemetry'?? Surely it's not that much fun to be faster than someone else because you have a better engine?
I think being able to adjust 'engine feel' type items, ie flywheel weight, idle rpm, rev limit, etc, would be a useful addition to the racing (LFS is a *racing* simulator after all, not an engine simulator...) but as for the rest of it, how would it help the racing? Sounds more like you're after a drag racing simulator, where shop time and money is what wins you the race...

trial bike, and even elasto, have much better dynamics than that shoddy attempt, imho

If everyone's posting their gen 2's I want in

Willem, have you driven signifigant laps with the feedback set to a low level, so it's not trying to overpower you, but is giving subtle information? Whether or not the feedback is 'correct' I struggle to understand how no feedback at all feels more realistic. Ah well

It's been the case since pits were introduced that you have to be moving when the finish line is crossed. Pretty crap, am sure it's been posted and discussed before though...

ff on levels between 15 and 35% feels good to me. enough to know what the cars doing and provide a bit of weight to the wheel, not enough to cause any problems for me. running no ff makes the car feel totally disconnected from the road, to me.

final corner of the fe rallyx in the lx6 - the big sweeper that goes from dirt to tarmac.

also pretty much every corner of south city in every car

Wasn't trying to insult him, just trying to make the point that I only know him through his posts on this forum. Might have come across a bit rough.

50km/h spinning wheels off the line have a far bigger slip ratio than the sole graph posted...

*claps*
nice post Rip. Be a dull forum if we just accepted the words of one so called expert with one random graph up his sleeve Nothing at all against Todd - I'm eager to be convinced, but there is not enough factual data posted imho.

Last edited by Blowtus, Sun 11 Jun 2006, 01:05.

Viper - there are many different tyres in LFS, they all exhibit the particular characteristics being discussed. Keeping unrealistic (if it is decided that they are unrealistic) tyres as a 'main' tyre choice wouldn't seem at all in line with the way things are usually done LFS style, to me.

Re locked difs: are you referring specifically to the fz50 on high speed tracks, or in general? Try the fz on aston national with a locker and then with an 80/80 (40/80 probably drives better for me though) clutch pack if you want to see the lack of rear traction I was talking about.

that was why I suggested a clutch pack with high coast lock - much more stability when you lift off.
But now we're sliding off topic...

hdr is great when done properly imho - the more realistic colour range just looks great. If the devs chose to do it they'd hardly be forced to do it all over the top crazy like...

road cars like the fz run into serious trouble with a locked dif on high speed circuits, really lacks rear end traction on the fast sweeping corners. A clutch pack with high coast lock and low power side makes it very driveable, I thought it felt pretty good but I've never been burdened with the task of driving a rear engined pig in reality either

Quote from jtw62074 :

These are old street tires rather than racing tires, but at least it's something concrete to put numbers too.

how old? Bias ply?

Quote from jtw62074 :

Opening up these in Paint and counting pixels it can be seen that the first curve drops 9.5% from the peak out to 0.8 slip ratio, which is BIG slip. These tests were done at 20 mph, so you're spinning the wheels up to the equivalent of 36 mph at the far right of the graph. The second test only shows a 3% drop.

That slip ratio is nothing compared to the ones encountered in LFS. Slip ratios from 5 and up are perfectly achievable off the line in many of the cars.

Quote from jtw62074 :

Is massive wheelspin going to reduce acceleration? Yes, it could depending on the tire, but generally it's not a whole lot or some massive drop off like most people seem to think where the acceleration dumps down to 60% of what you'd otherwise get or anything like that.

Do you have any further data or info to share to make me believe?
Your old street tyres are dropping 10% at a fairly modest slip ratio, racing slicks dropping 40% at higher slip ratios doesn't 'seem' unreasonable to me. Slip ratio with a clutch dump off the line is always going to be pretty damn huge as far as I can see?

Quote from jtw62074 :

Now that the tires have been improved so much LFS is really at the point where the lack of physical feedback imho is a valid argument. There are still a couple of little things I'd critique, but so far nobody has noticed or mentioned them so I'll remain mum

What fun is that? No need to be shy...

never raced door to door, but I've had my car on track etc. Shouldn't matter, like I said it's very easy to see on tv. I should have been clearer though, i didn't mean no wheelspin, some is inevitable, just excessive amounts.

you don't need to do a 'perfect start' in reality to get the benefit from a non wheelspin start. you can watch the start of any race, those that create plumes of smoke don't get off the line well.

I'd love to see someone show me an example of a tyre that will provide just as much forward force when spinning with a huge speed differential between it and the road... that sort of thing can occur on deformable surfaces like dirt / sand etc (I know certain rear tyres on my trailbike provide most forward drive at fairly large slip speeds) but I've never seen or experienced anything like that on tarmac. (edit: that doesn't mean it doesn't exist though!) Perhaps it would be physically possible to engineer such a tyre (even that I would find surprising) but even then LFS is not aided by being dramatically different to reality in it's tyre selections...

Last edited by Blowtus, Thu 8 Jun 2006, 03:05.

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

Since when?

If you read the post I mentioned it makes good sense. Where else has it been latched on to as a cause of failings?

Sorry, your initial post sounded like you wanted to lump chassis and engine flex together and blame it for everything I feel like I've seen quite a few posts that carry on as though chassis flex is the only thing left to be done for the sim to be perfect... maybe it's just a feeling though

I agree that it's worth bringing up - but it is just one hypothesis without a lot of backing behind it. I don't have enough knowledge of the physics behind it to be able to suggest how much effect it really has, and I couldn't see anything in the other thread to suggest anyone there did either. Tweaking of all the other bits has brought us great strides, suggesting they can't be improved further just seems kind of odd to me.

I guess it just seems like a very hopeful thought to me - the assumption that since Scavier are gods, everything is modeled perfectly *this time* and it's only what they haven't yet done that is letting it down...

this whole 'flex' business appears to have become a popular point to latch onto as the cause of all failings. I don't really see how myself, has anyone suggested why it would have such a great effect, or is it just something complicated sounding that hasn't been modeled at all?

be nice to have it fixed though. Whether it's intentional or not it does come across as a little bug-esque

would be interesting to see the variance between the current 'super sports' style tyres... tyres with large amounts of grip have always 'felt' like they 'break away' more sharply to me.

just did some playing around with the xrt on the skidpad, thought I'd put up a few points on how *I find* it differs from reality. I'm a long way from an expert, just a goon with a longtime interest in cars / vehicle dynamics, and a bit of time spent on racetracks / skidpads. I drive an rx7 turbo, similar weight, size, power curve / output, open dif, standard suspension, moderate camber angles, good quality but high-ish profile tyres, good mechanical condition, etc. I've tried to emulate all this as closely as possible with the setup, though have had to pay more attention to how the car drives as opposed to any sort of strict accordance with numbers - none of the cars I've driven start this slow slide sideways when you get them at the limit under neutral throttle situations

I realise the xrt is *not* my car, I'm not trying to suggest they should behave exactly the same, but I believe with the wide range of setup options available I should be able to set the xrt to exhibit similar traits - this is not the case.

low speed physics - my car simply will not donut (spin on the spot) it just drives forward under power, whether a rear wheel is spinning fast or not. too much steering lock overloads the front wheels and it ploughs straight ahead. With an open dif and similar suspension settings the xrt spins around and around on the spot. No, this one in itself is not critical to the game, but is an illustration of a current failing, imho. Power understeer (from a rwd) *has* been dramatically improved (since the patch) in all situations though, I find.

engine response - boost still rises really slowly. could be argued as just a car design thing of course, just can't imagine any sort of car company would release such a thing 5k clutch dumps in anything resembling a 'normal' car of this ilk would result in lots of smoke and screaming tyres.

off the line traction - tried the same as above in some of the non turbo cars. Feels like the tyres have the same forwards traction in a static state as they do once already loaded / deformed in that direction. Real tyres 'feel' like they suffer some form of shock loading type situation and are unable to cope with such instantaneous changes in acceleration without a noticeable reduction in traction. I really know bugger all about the mathematical physics of tyres in a situation like this, would be interested in any input

Gah, I'm up too late already. bring on the disagreements, I'll try out some of the other points I had in mind another time. I realise the current ones are skirting around the issue under the spotlight so far.... got a bit sidetracked on the skidpad

I think LFS is a *fantastic* race simulator

do any of the people who posted pages and pages of posts regarding the changes in the new patch actually even *try* the default sets?? I sure don't...

nice post Todd