Quote from migf1 :

So, if I understand it correctly, any LFS laptime lacking the CL and the AC flag on LFSW is most probably done via the script, am I right?

For example, in the attachment below, 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 5th most probabaly have used the script?

Or it could be someone that actually has a clutch pedal or manually clutching with a button, that's it you can't know for certain

Quote from migf1 :

Glenn, the whole point is that the script is external to LFS plus that it gives an advantage. All the other things you mentioned are ingame options

Well that's just it, a macro is using current ingame options that as Choas and Sidi mention can be done manually all a macro is doing is automating it much like we used to have auto blip for example

Quote from BigTime :

The simple fact is, if you allow someone to modify the way the transmission works, then everything should be adjustable, or it is a cheat... No modifications to the game should be allowed unless all driver experience the same results, period.

Aopolgy acepted, I'm not amune to getting hot under the collar either

That's the very essense of this whole drama though, a macro in your logitec profiler is not modifying the game in any way whatsoever (you don't have to download a "script" you can record macros in the profiler to your hearts content), and is a normal function of the profiler. It is merely automating what can be done manually without the macro. There is no hack or code or anything else that inteferes with LFS

As for the such as, I don't really want to go into it as it might give people ideas. But if you know abit about electronics your imagination is the only limit.

Quote from BigTime :

Well my response to this is really simple... Some people left foot brake while others right foot brake. If you want to be on the level adjust... Adjusting is not downloading a script that makes you shift faster.

Personally I think it actually is similar, because the way people brake (I do it also) in LFS is nothing like you would be able to in a standard car (in many modern race cars you can though), so its just as unrealistic in some cases.

Some people who choose to use the clutch on the G25 though can not brake as smoothly and reliably as those that have a two pedal setup, its there choice though over realism verses competitiveness. Really I dont see alot of difference with setting up a macro in your logitec software it's a choice over realism for competitiveness. It's up to the developers to reduce the advantage, I think it's unproductive to criminalise idividuals for such choices when clearly it's not hacking, coding or using the wheel software or LFS in any way other than intended by the manufacturers.

Last edited by Glenn67, Thu 17 Jul 2008, 06:58.

Quote from BigTime :

Well if you dont think having a .1 to .2 difference isn't a notable advantage in a race then you just simply have NO, and I mean NO clue what so ever, of what racing is.!

Your right I have no clue, never was pertending I was a guru of racing I'm just an average joe who likes a good battle on the track and isn't too fussed at the end of the day whether I come first or second but that's just my perspective I know as I said earlier I don't see anyone racing for sheep stations here.

Quote from BigTime :

You can change the degree in which a wheel turns... The only side effect is that the wheel will become harder to steer (the force in which it takes to rotate) when you decrease the radius.

How often have you seen an F1 driver rotate the wheel more than 360 or 480 degrees? I rest my case.!

Well that begs more questions to its legitimatecy rather than closing the case In LFS you can reduce the steering rotation and the FFB so you have win/win not win/lose. And while having around 270deg might be legit in F1 LFS has alot more cars than the BF1 why should people be driving the standard road cars with sequenial shifting and 240deg wheel rotation - that is imo cheating just the same as using a macro clutch and with greater speed differences in an average race, but again that's my opinion

I am not saying any position is right or wrong, I just think there is alot of double standards on what is regarded as PC and whats not. I would agree we should reduce the difference that exist as much as possible, but at the same time I think there is many more and some that could never be monitored so it doesn't make sense to turn this into a witch hunt but instead keep it a civalized discussion, that is the intent of my posts.

What people fail to understand is that nothing is ever equal, we can endevour to make things as equal as possible and we should but unless everyone has exactly the same physical setup and circumstances then things cant be equal.

Quote from BigTime :

Agreed, but having a different controler and using a cheat that makes the car shift faster don't even fall into the same realm... !

What about people that make there own controllers? They could make them with better features which would give an advantage.

Quote from BigTime :

The simple fact of the matter, this Marco (or what ever it's called) adjusts the game in a way the devs did not want it adjusted. Secondly, it give everyone that doesn't use it a big (an advantage is an advatage rather it's .1 or .001) disadvatage... I don't see how anyone can look at this as a form of fairness. People kill me saying that it isn't a big advantage.... ANY ADVANTAGE IS AN ADVANTAGE!

That's the point I'm trying to make also. The macro clutch thingy is not the only way people gain advantages over others in LFS, so why is the macro clutch so politically incorect when some of the other things are so widely accepted as PC

Quote from scipy :

U have all lost ur way completley. This is the thing, it's not a "script", no real "hacking" or "scripting" is involved - it's just a button clutch option in LFS, u just press C and shift in the Logitech profiler and that's about it - a recoreded action. As long as button clutch is available in LFS - IT IS NOT A CHEAT, it is an option. If you want to use it you can, if you think it's immoral or wrong then don't. BTW, any respectable league will have a simple rule that will get rid of the "cheaters" - autoclutch=1 - that pretty much solves the problem, after the race is done, LFS Stats goes through the replay and u see anyone who doesn't have an autoclutch flag by his name, and they are then disqualified. The only solution for this "hotlapping war" that is going on is for Victor to add autoclutch=0 to the list of things that remove the hotlap from the chart.

So either petition him to do this or just stop with the wining and "I WILL GET EVERYONE TO HATE U IF U USE SOMETHING THAT IS AVAILABLE TO EVERYONE AND THEREFOR NOT REALLY AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE".

Your one of the only ones that seem to be able to look at this without seeing the red mist .

Firstly so I'm clear here - I do use auto clutch and I do not use recorded actions (i.e. a macro) for changing gears. I have tried using button clutch back in 2004/5 because alot of well known fast drivers were using it back then, just to see what the fuss was about and at that time I could see there was about a 0.1 to 0.2 difference which for racing isn't that big a difference for the extra complexities of using a button as clutch so I didn't bother any further with it. Using a macro is just automating that function and is a very easy and normal function of alot of game controller prfiler software just like adjusting FFB and wheel rotation.

In my view using unrealisticly small steering rotation like 240deg instead of 720deg gives you far greater advantage than using a macro for changing gears and by the logic of this witch hunt should also be banned, which btw wouldn't dissapoint me

As an example using 240deg rotation I can do 0.4 - 0.5 sec per lap faster and more consitantly than using 720 deg so it should be banned because if I want to run 720 deg which is realistic then I'm at a huge disadvantage.

Then we could go on about views, does using custom wheels view give you an advantage over cockpit view? I would contend that it does as you can be far more precise with your entries and exits to corners - and we all know that can shave off many 0.1 sec's per lap. What about real gauges verses virtual gauges? I certainly can read the virtual one more clearly, so that is a big advanatge over those that choose to use real gauge mode. Again the more accurately you know speed mid corner the closer and more consistantly you can be at the limit. Again many 0.1 sec's in a race. I could go on and on about differences.

I can't believe so many believe that we all have a level playing field. Of course we don't, every type of controller choice in LFS will have advantages and disadvantages. Setting up LFS and your controller does have an impact on you ultimate speed that's a fact that reaches far beyound the macro clutch issue. It has just as much impact as car setup imo. We all make choices at the end of the day about our LFS setup regarding ultimate realism verses raw speed. I personally would love to persue the ultimate realism line, but realities of wanting to be competitive and only racing very rarely means I make some compromises in realism for raw speed.

I think the button clutch should be tammed abit (i.e. made slower) or just make it a requirement that you must have autoclutch enabled to upload a HL. But if you think that is going to "level" the playing field your deluded. LFS is much more level than real life racing but it will never be completely level, it's abit like balancing the TBO class

Quote from Sir moi 407 :

In this case it isn't honnest at all

While I'm inclined to agree, it is hard to see it as being more "dishonest" than say using a wheel with wheel rotation set to 240deg or reducing FFB so low that it doesn't impede your reaction times or modifying the default skid sound files in LFS to help you hear the limit of traction better or.... throwing the whole aurgument upside down, how about making a more realistic brake based on a load cell, or having a three monitor setup? Are they cheats as they give you functionality that other racers cant hope to match.

Quote from chanoman315 :

I bet a 2:04

How much are we betting? If it is as much as 0.4 sec I'd be quite suprised. Would really like to know and Worm is a good unbiased (well maybe not unbiased but at least will test fairly) candidate to try it.

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 15:08.

Quote from Worm :

ok, i will do it with the RB4 on aston antional.
Maybe not today but during the week.

I look forward to you reporting back don't foget once you have set your best time with the script to then do a few laps without it to ensure that the difference is the script and not improvement in your driving

I personally believe that people are putting more emphasis on this script thing than is warranted, but I could be very wrong so would be keen to see.

With setup tweaks on the other hand I believe an improvement of 0.2 sec a lap is easily achievable with the right tweak (admitedly finding the right thing too tweak on a setup isn't easy though )

Quote from Sir moi 407 :

Since it makes win time in on-line and hotlap mod with a no-official addon, it IS a cheat
I think that Scawen saw this topic and will do an anti-cheat for this

One could use that same logic to say it's not a cheat... Creating a script is a normal function in many wheel profiler software packages, so there for using a script can't be a cheat. Just being devil's advocate here

Last edited by Glenn67, Wed 16 Jul 2008, 14:00.

Quote from Worm :

You know, i was just giving my opinion, if you want i can jsut use this script and you will see the difference. And maybe you will undesrtand.

Why don't you? I mean it would be good just to see how much of a difference we are actually arguing over here because I haven't seen any real hard evidence so far.

We need a comparison between squential shifting with auto clutch and shifting with a script. The earlier comparison in this thread compared auto gears with sequential shifting so doesn't answer the question at hand

Quote from duke_toaster :

As far as I'm concerned any hotlap that isn't on LFSW isn't official. End of. You set a WR and delete it from LFSW, you lost that WR.

And in three years time who's gonna care anyway I remember guys [and girls] far more from seeing and meeting them online than I ever will remember a guy who held the WR for a particular combo back in 2005

I respect guys who are able to post WR's as having skill but I remember people for their character not how many WR's they hold.

Quote from Mazar :

Well it sure isnt like that in the real world.

Well in the real world there is a hell of alot more variables to doing a hotlap also. No two qualifying sessions will be the same, from year to year the track will have changed the wheather would be different, no two tyres are ever the same let alone 4 tyres the same, bla bla bla

LFS is a very clinical environment in comparison. The tracks have very little bumps no temperature variation, no oil/water/sand contamination, the tyres in LFS are all perfect replicas of each other no variation between sets of tyres or even between tyres in the one set, they behave quite predictible from season to season, etc, etc

So LFS setup development has quite different goals than real world setup development, that's why I think the Hotlap charts should be more about the driving than the set. But then I don't take LFS so serrious it's a tool for learning about racing and having fun racing, I don't race for sheep stations I keep the serrious stuff for real life

Quote from Mazar :

Set up's for Hotlaps are made by drivers putting in massive effort to create them. If they want to share them, that is really cool. If they don't they should not have their own hard work given away.

I agree, and all I was saying is that they have a choice not to upload a hl with that set, they can upload a hl with another set. If that means they can't get the glory of being seen as the WR holder so what

If you never post a hotlap using the setup you want to protect or give it to someone else who might post a hotlap with it then that setup is safe

Hotlap uploads should be more about the driving rather than the setups imo, setup strategy should be more for league racing. So if you are a league racer and upload hotlaps, only upload a HL with existing and freely available setups and keep your "top secret" setups for your league races. Problem solved

I'm sure some teams would already be doing this

Quote from bbman :

You forgot Murphy's amazing record lap of 2003

Did I

http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?p=524259#post524259

Seen those vids some time ago, amazing he got away.

Here's a funny compilation of bathurst crashes I've just found

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2g3w7hV6930

I've seen tyre cams before, not sure if this one has been shown. Shows front left, they run pretty large amount of camber and by the amount of time it is in the air you must suspect their suspension is pretty stiff

http://youtube.com/watch?v=v-DMkO3g2SI

Last lap and a half at Sandown 2006 nice end to a 500km race

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8WbHBsMWoVo

One lap with Tander onboard Bathrust 2007

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Upr6xTORCZs

This is the best way to commentate a lap.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=206CGJ0dE-M

I just gotta laugh Brock "that's good, I'm very happy about that"

http://youtube.com/watch?v=K1bgj5FuwlU

Last edited by Glenn67, Tue 15 Jul 2008, 13:35.

I'm bored tonight

People are fast with what they are comfortable with

When I went from the xbox controller to the wheel I wanted to go back to the xbox for ages (luckily it was brocken so I couldn't ) eventually after much practise (several weeks leading into months) I was as good with the wheel as I was with the xbox controller

I do think alot comes down to how much effort someone is willing to put into relearning a skill. For some it's probably harder to sacrifice being fast for a while to learn a new controller than it was to learn intially how to be fast on there first controlle. I imagine this is especially so when the original controller they were fast with is right there tempting them and a dam sight easier to setup for a race etc, etc...

Quote from Breizh :

Yep, it wouldn't be much fun without sharper and lighter handling.

Which is why Danowat added that it would need to be a new class of car with lowered center of gavity etc which would enable you to be much much more aggressive in the corners thus then getting near to the new slick tyres grip limit again which would then mean that is you mashed the throttle you would spin If you can mash the throttle you not going fast enough

Back in S1H days I remember driving the XFG with slickmod and it was alot of fun (could do about 1:28xx around BL1 if I remember correctly at that time 1:32s were possible normally) so with slicks you push much much harder. Personally I enjoy both types of car, the LX6 with its need for throttle sensitivity and the UFR for its raw cornering grip for example. All can be fun in there own ways

Quote from HVS5b :

Its clearly enough to make the difference between having a WR and not......... Its an expoit that should GTF.

My point wasn't that it's not an exploit so much as that it doesn't make such a difference that lousy drivers can sudenly compete with fast drivers. When you speak of a world record then yes even 0.01 of a second difference is possibly enough

@ Xenix74 I was not thinking you were a lousy driver (don't think I've ever raced with you so I'll reserve my judgement till I do but you would have to be miles better than me because I'm a lousy driver ) I was merly making a point that it is easier to make excuse as to why we can't beat someone than it is to knuckle down and become better...

The controllers I've used since having LFS (sine 2004) are original xbox controller until 2006 (was able to get within 1% of WR with practice on a combo) momo until Dec 2007 (was able to get within 1% of WR with practise) and now G25 (am able to get within 1-2% with practise) although haven't had much practise recently Do you see a pattern

I've seen people go from mouse to wheel and be about the same in overall pace as well.

I do agree with one thing though that having a low degree of rotation or mouse control does make it easier to be fast, but it doesn't mean that you can't be fast with high deg of rotation it's just that there is less room for correcting from errors.

Don't get me wrong I'd love to see server side restrictions on car setup, controller setup/choice etc. It would be fun for example to have a field of drivers all with 720 deg linear rotation, manual clutch and H pattern shifters racing LX6's. But at the moment we don't have that choice, so to say one controller setup over another is cheating is getting into very muddy waters. As Android already pointed out wheel drivers can have very similar setups by opting for low deg of rotation.

Last edited by Glenn67, Mon 14 Jul 2008, 14:07.

Quote from Xenix74 :

Some people use every little trick to be faster because they are mostly lousy drivers...

lol I just can't let that one go past

Little is the key word here, yes some people do use scripts for changing gears, they do use pedals in combination with mouse, etc, etc... does that give them a huge advantage? No it does not, there may be a tenth or so per sector at best and most likely it is just a tenth or so over a whole lap... It is more likely just a placebo effect and what is convenient for ease of setup and play than any thing else.

And as for lousy drivers, I think blaming these "little tricks" is the most used rationalisation I hear by lousy drivers The factors that effect my lap times the most is not controller hacks, it is things like setup (can affect laptimes by as much as 2%) , mental state (1%), the amount of practise I've had on the combo (2-4%), etc.

Those that are fast with the so called hacks/tricks will be fast without them

Before you jump to conclusions, I don't use scripts for changing gears (although I did in the past with a momo wheel) and I do use a G25.

Quote from migf1 :

Can you imagine the moaning (and crying) if and when variable track grip is introduced in LFS?

Oh you bet I can! That makes me want it even more though

Quote from dungbeetle :

If I had more spare time I could race every evening and there wouldn't be a problem ...

Now your just being pedantic

Quote from dungbeetle :

OK, maybe I am a little impatient ...

Or you have alot more spare time to devote to LFS than I

Quote from Becky Rose :

This is more important to me than pounding around Le Mans in an Aston Martin. If I want to do that I can fire up rFactor or GTR2, i've got the mods to do that and to race V8's at Baathurst, yet I come back to LFS.

I forgot to mention as much as I love V8Supercars and Bathurst I've probably done less than 12hrs total over the last year in GTR2. I would think I've done more than 12hrs in LFS in the last month and thats when I have no spare time

And I agree 100% about the dynamic track enviroment stuff that is far more important that a replicated track to me and I hope one day we will see such environments in sims.

Quote from dungbeetle :

Although it's a good rotation plan, Glenn, the only problem might be that if someone can't make a certain night of the week due to other commitments, they'll never get to race that track.

Which is why I said for a time period for something like one month then it changes to another selection of tracks or just shuffles the previous selection

Quote from MadMac :

Guess I've reached the point of just coming out an asking, what would you guys like to see in an LX server?

Different track each day but the same track for each day of the week for a set time, like one month. That way it will change enough for the regulars and be predicatable enough for the less regular LFSer

Quote from migf1 :

For me real tracks are of equal importance with physcis, ffb and online racing in a simulator.

Real tracks not only give a huge boost to the immesrion part of the sim, but most importantly they are the absolute common ground amongst anyone and everyone involved in ANY KIND of racing (real life or simulated).
Saying "I lapped under 2 mins in Monza with the XR GTR" makes much more sense to so much more people than saying "I lapped under 1.08 in Blackwood with the XR GTR". And there's no need to have zillions of rl tracks. 2, 3 wisely chosen tracks, with configurations, can provide so much immersive thrill for a long time (both offline and online). And track development is physics independant, meaning each one of them is moslty one time project (once it's done, no need to change it with every patch).

Sorry but your argument about real life tracks just doesn't stack up on a world wide scale I wouldn't have a clue what is an average time for a particular car around Monza, Brands Hatch or many other well known tracks. I've driven them in some games gp4 and more recently gtr/gtr2 and have seen some brief footage but otherwise know nearly nothing about them

I like real life tracks don't get me wrong, but for instant the first thing I did when I purchased GTR2 was download the mods for V8Supercars and the Australian tracks. I virtually haven't touched the other tracks in GTR2. See where I'm going with this

LFS is sucessful as a World Racing sim because it doesn't have real tracks imo. Real tracks would have a tendancy to localise players to the tracks they know. If Bathurst were put in LFS for example I'd drive it 99% of the time

So I don't think real tracks are as important as physics, also I think you will find that getting real tracks laser scanned for example would require substantial changes in the structure of LFS. At least the resolution of the tracks surface as seen by the physics engine would most likely need changing so I wouldn't jump the gun and say real life track additions would be physics independent.

The rest of your post I agree with

Quote from Woz :

Wow, a lot more than I realised. A total of 38 in 54Km

Now look at my post (1st post after yours) I have 38 corners also and you tried to tell us it was all straight road