Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

I like it more second link doesn't work though.

fixed, put a _ in there when it didnt need it hehe

I *LOVE* orange, and i actually tried to do this exact theme last year, but it was pretty poor. Last year our GT1 & GT2 colours were Blue & Orange, so it would have worked perfectly, i just couldnt pull it off for some reason. I think I just felt it was too hard to get a nice gradient without faults where 'corners' met, maybe the FZR is easier than the XRR

Thanks for the comments from everyone too

& traxxion, no sneekin :P Ima gonna send out my skin ninjas, and they'll infiltrate F1RST HQ!!
Theres no ninja smilie, so have a bunny rabbit instead :bunny3: Ninja Bunnies!!

Added the render about an hour ago, and also adding a 3rd one, we need a GT3 catagory now :P


http://www.mercuryracingteam.com/pc2k/FZR_M_MoE4-4b2.jpg

The Merc guys havent even see this, the idiots are practicing instead, seems they care more about that then how their skins look

Last edited by PaulC2K, Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:06. Reason : added a _ in the url by mistake :)

Quote from pearcy_2k7 :

I really like the GT1 skin but the GT2 doesn't fit for me, maybe a red sunset would have worked better?

Thinking about it, i could probably put that back in now, because it was originally in there, however trying to get all the gradients to line up around the skin is a real nightmare, its bad enough on the Merc skins because of the grey gradient in the middle (the single seaters are terrible!). I managed to get it in using a 2nd gradient on the rear, going from top to bottom, and just letting the light blue fade to nothing. So im betting i could put some orange in there, however sadly you wouldnt get much in there as the points where the sides and top meet round the skin is quite wildly varied, could be blended manually maybe... but it was supposed to be a 2 min "can you put the logo & driver names on a skin for us" job hehe

Not arsed if its too late, only just got asked to do the skin so take it or leave it

http://www.mercuryracingteam.com/pc2k/FZR_M_MoE4-4a.jpg
http://www.mercuryracingteam.com/pc2k/FZR_M_MoE4-4b.jpg



original 2560 x 2048 render hiding in there too

Last edited by PaulC2K, Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:39.

Anyone have a working VWS scene in .max format?

The 2 attached above are seemingly lacking textures, it complains about 2 being missing (a FXO skin and a licence plate) in the first file, and the same 2 still missing plus a new VWS skin thrown into the mix. Both located in wildly different locations.
Clearly, of the files 3DSM says are missing, none are relevent to anyone here, and yet its not displaying the textures or saying their missing.

I've deleted out all my LFS source 'User paths', and then added the new viewer's dds folder, rendered to no success, deleted that path and moved onto the next location which might work, to ensure that the first variation it tries to use isnt the issue. Each version is identical, and very much flawed.
Infact, in the updated version the windows arent even transparent.

I could understand the issue if i was being told im missing textures, or i was the first person posting after it'd been added, but 2 people suggesting the first attept worked fine, with their renders backing it up, makes me a little confused.

Im not sure if the previous people modified the whole thing to include the tyres, or whats going on, but going by a couple of other peoples comments, i dont think im alone.
If i rename tyres.dss/.tga then it asks for it, so i know it wants it, however when i tell it to render without, it looks no different to the version when it has access to the file. Its simply refusing to use them.

Thanks for that Victor, wasnt expecting it so soon with most people chillin

Joe
I wouldnt say it has a specific font name tbh, theres probably a few variations of it, i know i have 4 which are pixel based from the same collection.

http://www.dafont.com/bitmap.php
Dafont is pretty good, plenty of fonts on there and they're well catagorised compared to most free font sites, usually you get maybe a dozen catagories, this has plenty of catagories and then even more sub-cats so its easy to have a russle through.
'Redensek' (about 5th down on there) is probably the one you'd want. Its suggesting its an 13px font, but it certainly looks like an 8px one which is what you want (with no PS AA crisp/sharp type effects).

Round Booking In:
The arrival of LFS Pro Series also introduces a new idea to LFS, the Booking In system.
The booking in system is used to confirm your participation before each round.
Most people are familiar with Airport check-in, where you are required to check in within a certain timeframe in order to confirm you are flying, and any seats not checked in by the time check-in closes would be available to any passengers hoping to board the flight due to earlier cancellations or missed flights etc.

LFS Pro Series takes a similar approach, where the 32 people entered into the series are given a wide window in which to confirm they'll be racing, before any unclaimed places become available to people on a reserves list.

Heres a basic example of the timetable:
Example race date = Jan 10th

Stage 1: 00UTC on Jan 3rd - Booking in opens
All 32 drivers competing receive an automated email letting them know booking in is now open, it tells them all the round details including date, time, combo, what sessions are being held and how long (min/laps), a rough timetable for the round, and some information about what to do.
Drivers can now secure their place on the grid during a 5 day window.

Stage 2: 00UTC on Jan 7th - Booking in closing soon
The same drivers receive another automated email, this time reminding them that booking in will close in just 24hrs. They will be reminded of their current status (ie confirmed, unable to attend, unspecified) to hopefully ensure anyone yet to confirm does so while they have chance, and also incase any drivers situation has changed, hopefully they will then correct this.

Stage 3: 00UTC on Jan 8th - Booking in closed
Any drivers which havent confirmed will be moved into the reserves list for the round. Drivers who have confirmed are assured their place on the grid.
At the same time, drivers on the reserves list will have 24hrs to apply for one of the available places in the round.

Stage 4: 00UTC on Jan 9th - Reserve bump-ups announced
Nearly 48hrs before the race starts, the available places on the starting grid will be filled by the reserves list drivers.
The drivers 'bumped up' will be selected based on:
• Points/results from the current season
• Season race finishes & starts
• Ability/Suitability
We hope this will ensure that people who've already entered an earlier round receive priority over drivers who havent, allowing them as close to a full season as possible, without newcomers taking their place.

Stage 5: 19UTC on Jan 10th - Race time!


It might seem fairly complicated to begin with, however the whole system from a drivers view is extremely simple to carry out. The automated emails help ensure you know when you're required to book in, and just incase you forget theres a reminder in place.
Informing us of your availability for the round couldnt be easier either, you just need to log-in on the site, head to the booking in area, and you'll see the deadlines for the entire season, with the next round highlighted for you. From there, you only need to select your status (confirm, unable to attend, unknown) and submit it, and then double check that your status is displayed correct.

The whole booking in approach is something i've personally felt has been required for some time, but it needed to be done in a manner which was easy for the user, effective for the leagues admins, and had the backup measures to ensure as much effort as is reasonable to ensure people who could race would be (ie people dont get excluded because they forgot).
The aim is to make sure we try to have full grids every round, and if people are unable to attend then were aware of this and can do the next best thing, bring in replacements.

Race Calendar for Season 1:

Round 1: 12/02/2009 - 19:00 UTC
Combo: FBM @ Aston Grand Touring (Rev)

Round 2: 26/02/2009 - 19:00 UTC
Combo: GTR @ Blackwood GP

Round 3: 12/03/2009 - 19:00 UTC
Combo: LX4 @ Fern Bay Gold

Round 4: 26/03/2009 - 19:00 UTC
Combo: GTR @ Kyoto Ring National

2 Week Break for Easter Holidays

Round 5: 23/04/2009 - 18:00* UTC
Combo: NGT @ South City Town (Rev)

Round 6: 07/05/2009 - 18:00* UTC
Combo: GTR @ Aston North

Round 7 - 21/05/2009 - 18:00* UTC
Combo: VWS @ Blackwood GP (Rev) (replaced with XFG if unreleased by 21/4/09)

Full details can be found on the LFS Pro Series website here: http://www.lfsproseries.net/calendar.php

*Due to DST changes, as UTC doesnt follow DST so this should keep the start time the same as the previous rounds.

Last edited by PaulC2K, Thu, 9 Apr 2009 19:38.

LFS Pro Series
LFS Pro Series is a new league which aims to bring together the very best drivers in LFS, putting them into a reasonable selection of cars, with some serious racing and sensible rules to ensure fair racing. We strongly feel that serious racing doesnt mean boring racing, with the enjoyment found from tough competition while using combos which are relatively challenging, but mainly provide good racing opportunities, the outcome should result in clean, well fought races where you really have to work for your results.

The series focuses mainly on GTR class racing, with an different class added on alternating rounds, such as single seater and road cars, used in-between the GTR rounds (ie: Season 1 is FBM, GTR, LX4, GTR, NGT, GTR, VWS). We feel this allows us to focus the series on the GTR while equally throwing in some new challenges using cars/classes which are popular and provide good racing.

Race Format Details
Rounds take place on Thursday evenings (EU) on a fortnightly basis.
Specific details for the current season can be found in the Race Calendar thread here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=52222

Timetable:
• 20min Qualifying Session
• 20min Sprint Race (Pts 20, 18, 16, 14...)
• 40min Feature Race with the top 10 drivers reversed (Pts 30, 27, 24, 21...)
Race complaints can be submitted within ~3hrs of the round starting, any incidents submitted after this deadline will still be investigated and a warning may be given, action will only take place due to extreme circumstances where ignoring it will harm the integrity of the series.

Standings:
LFS Pro Series consists of 2 standings, with honours for Driver and Team titles.
• Teams will consist of 2 drivers, and a 3rd (backup) driver can be added if/when needed due to one of the original drivers being unable to attend.
• The backup driver can be named at the start of the season, or before the race they intend to compete in.
• Backup driver will score points for their team total, and will also appear in the drivers’ standings.
• Only properly established LFS Teams will be permitted to enter, or un-attached drivers pairing up. Drivers who are part of a regular LFS team will not be allowed to pair up with another teams drivers, and will either be required to enter as an individual/privateer or find a teammate to join them.

Additional Information
Entry to the series:
Entry to LFS Pro Series is by application only, Season 1 opens on Jan 1st and will finish on Jan 22th. To apply for a place in the series you can visit the LFS Pro Series website, log in (or register), and fill in a basic entry form to compete as an individual or as part of a team.
Successful applicants will be notified by ~Jan 26th, driver numbers will be assigned, drivers will be required to plaster on a couple of series logos and race plates (all provided on the site in template format) to hi-res skins of each car used during the series, and have them submitted onto the site by Feb 5th where they will be made available for everyone taking part in 1 easily downloadable file.

Round Booking In:
The LFS Pro Series also introduces the Booking In system, a simple system used to confirm your participation before each round.
Full details of this feature can be found in the Booking in thread here: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=52226

Communications:
With the introduction of the booking in system, we also have a fully automated emailing system which contacts the drivers involved informing them of booking in opening (along with that rounds details), a 24hr notice of booking in closing, then the reserves list drivers will be notified of any places unoccupied so they can apply for a place.
The will also be 2 mailing lists to sign up for, the official race results, and an announcements/news emails. The race results will be fully automated while the announcements emails will only be sent when needed, and will be semi-automated.

Series Website: http://www.lfsproseries.net
Series Admins/Organisers: PaulC2K & Sracer

Last edited by PaulC2K, Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:41.

Quote from Drift King CZ :

A silly question. Does it mean that a league must have gone any races already or does it mean that a league must be only ready to start - to sign up drivers?

I think what Victor is getting at is that if 2 minutes ago, you had this epiphany which told you that what LFS really needs is a new league, and the first thing you do is ask Victor to dedicate a section of the forum to someones latest whim.... dont bother

If you dont have something solid to back up what you want to do, whether its a website with all the info, or a handful of people saying its a great idea, then chances are you wont get your wish.
You could start with a thread for your intended new series in the default leagues area (as opposed to a subforum) and if you can organise everything to the point where you have things sorted out and you effectively have yourself an organised league then you shouldnt have any problem getting a subforum for the league. Assuming you havent done that already that is.

Can we have a sub forum for LFS Pro Series please,

Series Name: LFS Pro Series
Website: www.lfsproseries.net
Moderators: PaulC2K & Sracer

We've already completed a private 6 round test season, gathered feedback from it, and made a few changes. Now were ready to start things properly with entries taken during January and racing starting in Feb.

Also, Im not sure if this is the right place to put them (I did search, and I see some have been added in here anyway), but we have banners for the forum if they can be used, as well as a series userbar (figured it'd save both of us time putting all the info in 1 thread, though I can post it in the league userbar thread if you'd prefer things done by the book etc).

Banners:




Userbar:

[lfsps]userbar[/ lfsps]

Hopefully all of the above is sufficient and acceptable.

Thx,
PaulC2K

Last edited by PaulC2K, Fri, 2 Jan 2009 07:45.

yeah, but it makes more sense insisting that submitting the design means your giving that permission, that way you know the one you like best can be used, you dont then have to go contacting them asking is it okay to use it. I cant see any reason someone would submit a design and then say no, but its commonplace on such things for the permission to be implied upon submitting an entry so you know its no an issue.

Maybe it would be good idea to state that by submitting a design the designer is (at the very least) agreeing to allow the MoE series the right to use it in these events.

Would have thought you guys would have picked up that message after the stupidity that went on where you guys were forced to seek out a new logo because the previous owner was no longer part of the organisation.
Common sense would tell most people to try and ensure they dont get burnt twice

Half the front end of the MoE grid will be doing that combo for LFSPS from 18:30 to around 20:00, and we've only just switched it from 19UTC to 18:30 to make it a bit earlier because people asked if we could.

Quote from Linsen :

What a useless article and a useless statement by Hamilton Sr. It's like that in every high profile sport. "Fans" will always be like that and use the sport to act out patriotism or national chauvinism. It's not always pretty and some countries (or supporters of certain teams) are worse than others, but to start whining and talk about quitting when you earn millions, is laughable.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

It's not only laughable, it shows a complete lack of understanding, because the reason people don't like Hamilton is because of statements like that. If you complain and talk about quitting when you earn millions, in a time when people are losing their homes and struggling to earn enough to feed their families, you are never going to be popular. Hamilton and his father just need to shutup and do their job next season, if Hamilton stops making stupid comments in the media then people will like him again.

Just take a step back a moment, both of you, and think about what your saying. Your suggesting that because he's paid millions upon millions for doing his job, and doing it bloody well too, that he should accept racist remarks and insults, as if the money he earns should make it tough luck.

Im guessing both of you earn something, can you both give me a ballpark figure so i know what level of insults its acceptable to throw at you and your family based on your income

Quote from Mustafur :

Hes fault really, the team asked what tires he wanted he wanted inters and failed.
Everytime Lewis set fast times Vettel matched it, and he was out the front coasting with a huge lead.

Nearly a whole page of essay bs and you base BMW's whole season performance on the last corner, sorry but that is just pathetic.

Its funny How people Claim Massa sucks because he can only win from the front row yet he has won the most races this season, what does that say.

Plus show me a race start this season that beats Massas Hungry attempt

So your just going to ignore what i wrote and dismiss it as BS so you dont have to respond to the valid points in there? Noice!
I wish i was ignorant enough to do that.

Its funny though, you claim i base it on 1 corner, yet i was talking about the whole season, while your insistant on talking about the last couple of races... im amazing how 2-faced you can be about something.

Your saying that Lewis wasnt able to match Vettels speed in Monza? hmm, maybe the fact that he had to pass FOURTEEN cars in order to acheive a win, which he would have got, while Vettel sat and drove an uninterupted, unchallenged race.

Also, if your talking about fastest race lap, Vettel didnt get it, Kimi did, so in that case the Ferrari was faster.
So basically, in terms of race pace over ~90min, Hamilton was faster than him, and in terms of fastest lap in the race, Kimi was faster than him... as was: Bourdais, Webber, Massa, Lewis, Heidfeld, JENSON BLOODY BUTTON, Glock, Alonso, Rosberg, Nakajima, Kubica and Kovi.
But hey, he beat Sutil

I know those are all based on laps done right at the end when Vettel didnt need to push (although he was, if you watched the interviews he refused to slow down till the last lap).
But even if midway through the race he held a fastest lap, the fact that Lewis would have won if it wasnt for the timing of the weather changing, forcing him to make an unscheduled stop, so you cant come from 15th to 1st without the leaders making a mistake or being faster than them for a significant proportion of the race.
Im not disputing the fact that what Vettel acheived was way above what is expected from him, thats obvious, however you (anyone) cant say he was the fastest driver that race as he just wasnt.

"Its funny How people Claim Massa sucks because he can only win from the front row yet he has won the most races this season, what does that say."
It says he's started on the front row of a race quite a lot of times, and if he had the balls & ability to overtake people midway through a race and come through the field he'd have wrapped the title up without the FIA's help giving him free points, ignoring blatent rules broken he's entirely responsible for, while punishing him for the same issue which was the teams fault when he was already well out of contention to pick up some points.

Im not saying he sucks, but he isnt a worthy champion IMO. The fact that Kimi had to drop back ~20sec in China to let him get undeserved points so hes only 7 points away instead of 9, which should have been 10 if the FIA didnt make BS rulings to gift points. I havent seen enough from Massa to say he's a potential F1 champion, maybe the pain of missing out this year will drive his determination... who knows.

Quote from ATC Quicksilver :

Not far from a landslide now, I think it needs to get around 350 for it to be called a landslide and he is on 338.

Could well be possible, the BBC websites coverage has the last 4 states at 49%/49% for 3 and 49/47.
If he takes 2 of the 4 then he'd get 350, theres still a 3, 11 (x2) and a 15, so he could do it with NC which he leads by 0.2% apparently, and the vast majority of the votes apparently accounted for.
Dont know quite how accurate their data is, but its certainly looks like its as accurate as it could be with fairly live data:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/ame ... lections_2008/7697829.stm

Im guessing they're getting their data from an official source overseeing the voting, kinda like getting pubstats from LFSW.


oh, and i have to admit to having taken more of an interest to the last 3 US elections than any of the last 3 English ones
Probably cos they have more of an influence on what our government does than our government

Quote from Mazz4200 :

Whichever way you look at it, it's a momentous occasion. Although i'm sure he's not the first black president, always thought that was Morgan Freeman

Dont be stupid, that was a film!
It was David Palmer, and then his brother Wayne

Quote from DeadWolfBones :

Today's the day.

fivethirtyeight.com has their final predictions in. Looks like good news: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com ... s-and-final-election.html

F--- me, they havent got one wrong yet.
Still about 10 uncalled, but even those are unofficially looking to go the way they've got it.

Hopefully there wont be the same fiasco there was a few years back in Florida and it'll be done and dusted by the morning.

Quote from PaulC2K :

Lewis is what, 23? In his second season. Senna and Schumacher were both hiding at the back of the grid, had about 40 races behind them before they were getting involved in any championship talk. Its easier to make mistakes when nobody is watching your every move than it is when the world is watching. Lewis, after 2 seasons, has been the significant favourite to win the drivers championship both years, and thats while he's making these so-called rookie mistakes. So little experience, considerable expectation, and no excuses to hide behind. He cant use the team he's with to excuse a poor performance, its all on him.

Quote from Mustafur :

I still fail to see how someone who has been watching the sport since 89 can compare the career starts of Shumi and Senna to Hamilton.

Your telling me you cant comprehend someone making ANY comparison between 2 racing drivers on racing matters??

regardless of that - i wasnt making comparisons, your taking the comment out of context and simply reading it on the basis of one post and not the whole discussion before it, so whether you know it or not, your taking my comment out of the context it was put.

I was making the point that Senna became the Senna that people remember after a couple of years when he'd worked his way up the grid. People will remember all the great things he did, the daring moves, the unbelievable achievements, and the big mistakes. People remember everything he did in the prime of his career, they dont talk about the mistakes they make because they were young and inexperienced at that level because they werent being watched so closely, their mistakes didnt really make much of an impact because they werent that important because they werent significant people at the time. Everyone is watching the front runners, the people who have a certain expectation put on them, the rest are just expected to do their best really, if they stay out of trouble then they'll remain in the shadows of the top drivers.

Lewis hasnt got that shadow to hide in, he's having to learn from his mistakes in the spotlight and thats probably his own fault because he started so impressively. Had he started with your average rookie results, people wouldnt have slammed him for making mistakes, look at Kovi and Piquet during there time in the Renault for their rookie seasons, its not a rubbish car, its at the front of the mid-pack teams for certain, but they werent that impressive and their averageness meant people accepted their mistakes, meanwhile Lewis would take harsher critisism because he'd shown he had the pace and ability in previous races.

Had he been further back down the grid in a less significant team, people would dismiss his mistakes as n00bish, but if he shows signs of having something about him, isnt scared of racing the top drivers, and then dares to slip up... he gets harshly critisised for it.
His initial performances brought higher expectation, the way he started his career when people expected him to be very much the pupil learning from his mentor (Alonso) and possibly picking up the odd result, but after leading the standings for about 75% of the season he's kinda been expected to make the decisions and whatnot with the knowledge that past champions have had.

Is it unfair to compare 2-3 people from different era's to say who's better? absolutely... but tell me why its unfair to compare the conditions in which the 2-3 entered the sport. Senna and Schumacher entered the stage quietly and they came through over time, Lewis hasnt got that, he's now expected to perform flawlessly, to make all the right decisions, and end 3rd world debt

Quote from Mustafur :

Ok then what if Shumi and Senna were given a Williams in thier first season what then?

Then they'd have made their mistakes in a Williams instead.
Everyone makes mistake, as rookies and as multiple champions, but very few are thrown in at the deep end of the pool and expected to come so impressively. Maybe there would be quite a few if they were given the chance, Lewis is extremely fortunate, but you cant pretend that past world champions entered F1 and just started pulling wins out their arse, they've all made mistakes, and they always will, Lewis is no different.

Out of interest, do you think Senna or Schumacher could have got to the last race of their first season with a 7pt lead in an ever so slightly 2nd best car on the grid? Personally i cant see it, but I will say that i think Lewis probably had 'easier' opposition to get into that situation. Schumacher wouldnt have stood a chance, not with Senna, Prost & Mansell all having plenty of years behind them and i think all had been crowned world champion by then. Senna had Lauda and also Prost in there, i think Keke was in there too. Lewis was also lucky that he didnt have Schumacher, although still had Alonso (in the same car) and Kimi who'd already shown he was a title contender.
If Senna/Schumi came in when Lewis did... thats a different story
Senna in a Williams, maybe he'd win a race or 2, but i dont see him beating Lauda, Prost & co to the drivers title. Schumi wouldnt have stood a chance either vs Senna, Prost & Mansell.

When you consider what it requires to come into F1 as a rookie and do well, its no easy task. Your talking about coming in from a lower form of racing, most likely as the champion, and then taking on the very best drivers in the world, drivers who've won titles at that level, have bags of racing experience behind them as well as F1 experience and knowledge, to come in as an absolute rookie (not a Villeneuve/Andretti experienced rookie) and challenge for ANYTHING let alone win races on merit and come so close to winning the drivers title it was almost impossible for him to lose it... its unbelievable.

Quote from Mustafur :

and your comments about BMW make me lol to be honest, after montreal they were never even close to the top 2 and were deeply trenched with Toyota and Renault. Yet they still managed to score soo many points(Kubica consistency for you).

They probably made you lol as much as they made me lol when you try and pretend that they're one of the so-so teams on the grid at the end of the season, and now saying that the only reason they've done so well in the 2nd half (when the car is poor) is purely down to Kubica.
If thats the case, if we can just make up stuff, then im saying Kubica was poor in the first half of the season, and his results then were purely down to the car.

But hey, his car was so bad at the end of the season it was faster than Lewis and Seb when he insisted on unlapping himself. That was all him though of course?
Maybe the car wasnt as strong as it was at the start, but you cant claim his less impressive results in the first half of the season with a very competitive car, compared to his more impressive points haul in what your suggesting was a below-par car is entirely down to 1 drivers results... which were remarkably similar to his teammates too.
Your story just doesnt add up. Im not saying he's rubbish, i can see him challenging for a title when he gets a car capable of doing that asthe 08 BMW was never that, at any stage, he just managed to get some good results off the back of other peoples poor results (and credit to him for that) but not once was he challenging for a win on merit, and i find it very hard to believe someone who cant win races on merit will be a real threat on the WDC, whether they're Kubica, Schumacher or Sato. Its like thinking you can win a WDC while being unable to win a race off the front row

Quote from JCTK :

... it was only Monza in the rain where they were faster than both, and Brazil where it was faster than the McLaren (well Lewis was being far TOO careful which actually became kinda risky, and Heikki was just useless as usual, but that's done and dusted)

Vettel wasnt faster than Lewis, he qualified ahead of him due to stupid tyre choice then random scrutineering stopping him from making a proper attempt. In the race Lewis would have won from 15th, passing most of those places on the track, while Vettel had no challenger to worry about, and if the weather hadnt changed shortly after Hamilton went onto slicks and just laps before Vettel needed to pit anyway, things would have been very different.
Still, had it been dry i dont think Vettel would have had a chance, however it wasnt dry and thats what happened.
But i strongly disagree that he was faster than Lewis, he out played him, but he wasnt faster.

Quote from Mustafur :

1) You clearly haven't been watching f1 for long.
2) Massa had the title won easy before brazil if it wasn't due to team related problems.
3) Hamilton would be best if put in equal car? Then how did Vettel pass him and nearly passed Massa in the dry during the race Massa is nearly invincible on all with a car that has half the amount spent on it as a Force-India?
4) Kubicas consistency should deserve something but its clear hes car was too crap to match the top guns.
5) In terms of pace by the last race BMW were easily 5th or even 6th
(1.Ferrari/mclaren, 3.Renault, 4. Toyota, 5. Torro Rosso/ BMW)

1) Correct, 1989 isnt that long i guess. Only missing a couple of live races, dont think ive missed a Japanese GP etc 6am start from the age of about 12 onwards, im just a johnny come lately i am.

2) Really? Thats disgraceful, maybe he should have asked the FIA for help in that department too? Funny how all the things he's done wrong have all been insignificantly penalised or pale in comparison to a fair penalty. Like intentionally driving into a rival who'd just passed him, or giving him a S-G in a race which was already over for him for a TEAM error, but not giving him a penalty which would have lost him the race win and given it to Lewis when it was HIS error. Crap car issues is something he should take up with the people paying his wages.
Just think, if the FIA could have gifted him more decisions/points unfairly, or he didnt spin FIVE times round Silverstone in a single race, maybe he would have won it

3a) Kubica insisting he must unlap himself to acheive sweet FA except cause lewis to leave the ideal racing line and gift Vettel the chance to pass.
3b) Lewis was on a low DF setting and heavy with fuel, Vettel wasnt. Hardly equal comparisons.

4) He can have the 'most consistant but unfortunately not in a competitive enough car but if he was then maybe he'd challenge for something rather than having to settle for the scraps the big boys leave him' award. I'll happily present it to him.
Kubica could also have taken 3rd place in the standings ahead of the former F1WDC if it wasnt for the stupid decision to put slicks on for a wet race, and for that he can have the 'I made a stupid decision that cost me 3rd overall' award too if that pleases you. Is that deserving enough?

5) By pace in Brazil.... Funny really considering they've had far better results in all the other rounds, but hey, that must be the teams fault right? Couldnt possibly be the drivers to blame
If you actually checked things, you'd find that their pace hasnt really changed all that significantly, the first half of the season they were qualifying in the same places they were in the second half of the season.
Kubica failed to finish more races in the 2nd half, yet almost certainly picked up more points in that period, Heidfeld was the same, but roughly equal points in either half. So what does that say if the results suggest that they had better results when your suggesting they were mid-pack at best towards the end of the year? It suggests your going off 1 race where Kubica sucked and then decide to start the parade lap on Slicks before sense kicked in and he swapped while the lights went green.


So id say your probably not the best person to judge something are you

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

I hear what you're saying, but if Lewis is driving for a top team, surely that would mean that mistakes should be at a min.

as for no excuses....bull, you just made one up for him.

I think your mis-enterpreting what im saying, otherwise how is saying that Lewis cant hide behind a small budget, mid-pack expectation team's car as the reason for doing 'ok' in a race considered giving him an excuse. He's got everything available to challenge for wins, and so really when he doesnt then people generally question why he wasnt faster, they dont say 'oh well, he's only in a BMW/TR, he did the best he could' because people know what its capable of and he's expected to fight for the win, just as both the Ferrari boys are.


If Kubica is so great, why wasnt he consistantly pushing for wins, the BMW is far from crap, infact i was reading yesterday was the first time in 2 seasons where they havent picked up a point, they're in the 3rd best team by a fair distance and were on a really challenging pace at the start of the season, but they were gifted 1 win, while Renault won twice and TR won once. Kubica picked up reasonable points here and there, Lewis & Massa faught for the title, Kubica found himself in with a chance, but only by their misfortune. We havent seen anything of Kubica to say he's a great racer, he hasnt really been involved with the top racers, blame the car all you like, but until he's in a car that can challenge for a title and he's able to race an earn wins by beating the best, how can anyone say he's a better driver or deserves to win anything.
Bobby deserved 4th, he wasnt screwed by the FIA, wasnt rammed off the track by a rival unable to accept he was being fairly passed, and he finished 4th. I highly, highly doubt he's the best driver in F1, he's maybe the 5th best, so he's got more than he deserves IMO. Alonso is a far better driver, but he doesnt deserve anything more than he got, he is where he is, in a worse car than the BMW, got better 'left-over' results, but im sure he doesnt expect consider himself deserving of much more than he got.

He's done well, but he certainly doesnt deserve to win the title this year, theres no pity points in F1, no points for trying, and rightly theres no title of World drivers he did well considering the car he's in Champion. Maybe he was the best driver given the circumstances, im not sure, plenty of drivers have done well considering the car they're in, Glock being one who's been overlooked (though the moany sods will dismiss him as being the sole reason Lewis is WDC and thus crap). Theres plenty of good young talent in F1 at the moment, but if you put all of them in an identical car, im betting that Lewis would come out on top 8 times out of 10, i think only Schumi would be able to consistantly beat him at the moment.
Considering in his first season he should have won the title, and the 2nd season he did, i think its quite possible that we'll enter another dull Schumi-type period in F1 when things become predictable. If he's currently making mistakes and should have won titles both seasons then god help everyone when he stops making them.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

But Lewis's and Massa's mistakes were rookie mistakes........ I don't remember the likes of Senna, Schumacher etc etc making such blatant rookie mistakes. Also please take the fact in that Kubica was in a poorer car, yet still had an outside chance at the title.....he made less mistakes than others.

Lewis is what, 23? In his second season. Senna and Schumacher were both hiding at the back of the grid, had about 40 races behind them before they were getting involved in any championship talk. Its easier to make mistakes when nobody is watching your every move than it is when the world is watching. Lewis, after 2 seasons, has been the significant favourite to win the drivers championship both years, and thats while he's making these so-called rookie mistakes. So little experience, considerable expectation, and no excuses to hide behind. He cant use the team he's with to excuse a poor performance, its all on him.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

And of cource there was pressure on him, he's the only won from Poland to make it big into F1, and so would be obviously all over him. Just because we did'nt see it, dont mean it was'nt there.

Theres nothing like the pressure on Bobby compared to the likes of Kimi, Massa, Schumi & Lewis, they were in a top car and there are expectations that go with it. He's in a good team, but nobody expects him to win anything. When you dont have the burden of expectation on your shoulders things are a lot easier, its always easier being the underdog.
Yes, he might have had the hopes of everyone back home, but nobody expected him to be in with any sort of a shout, and he's done well to be in that situation, but he was never a real contender and really nobody expected him to be there because of the car he's in, as good as it is its not a WC winning car.

Quote from Mackie The Staggie :

IMO neither Lewis or Massa truely deserved the title, although it's a bit stupid to say that, has they both did enough to be there at the end of the day. Both should have won it weeks ago, and both made a fair number of mistakes.

For me the drive of the year goes to Kubica and Vettel. Kubica has been the more consistant and considering he was in a weaker car to the Mclaren and Ferrari then , just feel if Kubica was in a Ferrari or Mclaren we would have had a different champion.


BTW for all the guys complaining at the crowd booing, lets not forget the British crowd cheering as Schumacher crashed in Silverstone.

What world champion hasnt made mistakes or made poor decisions along the way? Schumacher, Senna, Alonso... please.

When you consider that Lewis had 2 potential race wins taken away from him, which Massa in turn benefitted from by 10pts (Valencia he exited the pitlane dangerously but went unpunished an kept the win, while Singapore his team told him to leave dangerously and he was punished for their mistake, thats -2 for him dropping to 2nd, +2 for lewis, a 4pt swing, then Spa lewis lost 4pts while Massa gained 2pts, a 6pt swing) so the championship could have been done with by Fuji had the FIA had some sort of solid structure in place ruling over decisions which have conveniently added to taking the championship to the last round. These incidents have been done plenty, and the outcome wont change, however they could easily have gone the other way, the Spa one may well have been changed had the rules not said they have no right to object no matter how unfair it was.

Also, i think both Kubica and Vettel are good drivers, but you cant honestly tell me either have been better over the season. As Intrepid has just said, they didnt have any long term pressures, the only time Kubica had any pressure was about half-way through the Canadian GP when everyone else was out of the picture and all he had to do was keep it on the track, thats hardly the sign of a great driver. Same for Vettel, he led and won a GP, didnt have any real pressure from anyone, no defending his place or a need to pass anyone for position. Given what their circumstances are, they've done very well for themselves, but lets not make them out to be the best drivers of the 2008 season purely cos they've had 1-2 decent races where other things have gifted them results. Even Lewis at Monza, from 15th, was looking set to win the Monza GP if the weather hadnt changed just laps after he'd pitted, and just before Vettel was due to.

They've done great jobs, but pile on the pressures of all eyes being on you, having to overtake, race, and generally get the better of the likes of Hamilton, Massa, Kimi, Alonso etc etc and im sure they'd feel the heat.



Lastly, i think Massa needs thanking for creating one of F1s greatest memories, its something that'll enjoy watching for years... and his son's racing was good too

Quote from Bawbag :

Someone didn't watch the ITV build up to the F1 today, Kimi said he was far happier starting 3rd than 2nd, claiming 3rd was better than second to be starting.

I saw bits of it, sadly i didnt have control of the magic doofer so there was some flicking.
However, i said someone who would have prefered to start 1 place back, someone who'd rather have 2 cars ahead of them then just 1 etc. Eitherway, no suprise Kimi said that, im sure it was fully intentional to let the TOYOTA qualify ahead of him