Supposedly yeah it will have wet weather, whether thats in online as well is another matter, but its one of the features thats been mentioned as being included in GT5 proper.
Vaguely irrellevent to the current direction this thread is heading but...
Nice
Madman_CZ: No, i understand that, i can appreciate everyone can see weaknesses in thing they like just as much as things they dont like, it just means they're not pretending everything is perfect I agree with what your saying, everything should be replicated, but the obvious things will always take precedence because the average person puts more value to it.
'Real Simulator' will always be something that gets pointed out though, damage is usually the first reason that gets brought up, but i guess you just have to accept you cant always get everything how you want it. Considering it an aspect that is widely requested rather than just the minority wanting it, its one of the few things they've yet to do that really is an important aspect. All the excuses seem a little lame to me, none convince me of anything other than the fact that they cant do it properly, originally it was the fault of the car manufacturers, then it moved onto 'the ps2 isnt powerful enough to calculate the splash damage and we want thousands of bits all over the track, we want it to be real' type excuse and they've used a bit of both this time round. Polyphony must watch glass car racing as i dont recall that many times where big crashes have sent considerable small peices of car all over the track, typically its large chunks or reasonably sized bits, never splinters.
But still, theres plenty of things that have been done to the best of their ability, not 100% perfect, and they've been happy with it, why does this 1 aspect suddenly require perfection on no-go.
Nice
Madman_CZ: No, i understand that, i can appreciate everyone can see weaknesses in thing they like just as much as things they dont like, it just means they're not pretending everything is perfect
I agree with what your saying, everything should be replicated, but the obvious things will always take precedence because the average person puts more value to it.'Real Simulator' will always be something that gets pointed out though, damage is usually the first reason that gets brought up, but i guess you just have to accept you cant always get everything how you want it. Considering it an aspect that is widely requested rather than just the minority wanting it, its one of the few things they've yet to do that really is an important aspect. All the excuses seem a little lame to me, none convince me of anything other than the fact that they cant do it properly, originally it was the fault of the car manufacturers, then it moved onto 'the ps2 isnt powerful enough to calculate the splash damage and we want thousands of bits all over the track, we want it to be real' type excuse and they've used a bit of both this time round. Polyphony must watch glass car racing as i dont recall that many times where big crashes have sent considerable small peices of car all over the track, typically its large chunks or reasonably sized bits, never splinters.
But still, theres plenty of things that have been done to the best of their ability, not 100% perfect, and they've been happy with it, why does this 1 aspect suddenly require perfection on no-go.
Actually, you'd probably be the stupid one for thinking that, only on the basis that people expect the best looking graphics on a next-gen console, most people couldnt give two hoots about deforming tyres and would never give it a moments thought.
You'd be barking up the wrong tree really, console games arent about being exact replicas of reality, they need to appeal to a wide audience, spending so much time on something 99% of those people wouldnt appreciate is stupid. Maybe the die hard sim racing fan wont consider it, but then whats new there, the sim community is tiny compared to general gaming and lets be honest, the sim community is pretty arrogant and up its own backside anyway. All games pretend their perfect, but their not and they never will be, Console titles give their audience what they think is important, pretty graphics, nice sound, and decent entertainment value, they make noises about realism and for the most part its very good, but they'll never fill in all the missing peices correctly, its not worth their while because their audience wont appreciate/notice it.
I cant wait for GT5, or prologue proper, so its not perfect, but i dont care about that, i just want to drive a F430 round nordschleife and stuff like that.
Eitherway, its all about having fun, were in the LFS Forum argueing about a game that is missing key features, anyone else choking on the irony?
Seriously??
If you not taking the biscuit, then i can only assume its down to PAL/NTSC issues, if your TV can handle both then i dunno what problem you have, if it cant then i do know
If you not taking the biscuit, then i can only assume its down to PAL/NTSC issues, if your TV can handle both then i dunno what problem you have, if it cant then i do know
The demo's pretty good, i dont care about the fact that its not LFS, LFS isnt the bee's knees, every game has its weeknesses and strengths and if you get some pleasure out of it then wheres the harm.
In saying that, going from 8th to 1st in the first lap round Suzuka (first attempt) when theres a pair of Audi R8s and Ferrari F430s up ahead is a little dubious when your in a Nissan GTR, but visually its amazing, and its in the replays when you can look around and see so much more, for me its the inclusion of the insignificant stuff that makes it stand out. The sound is amazing, its quite something when you get alongside an F430 or even a Mustang and you can just feel the power. Only a few of the cars have in-car camera's, although 3 cars are currently locked (one of which is actually covered up, looks kinda Focus RS-esque) and will be unlocked over the next few days, but i found it quite funny that the BMW 135i had Sat Nav on the dashboard
As for 'Japan only'... dont make me laugh
I created my first US account on a mates PS3 before i even had one myself, its pretty much essential if you want the decent demo's and your in Europe as the yanks tend to get everything first as their demos are for 1 language, English, whereas the EU games need to be in 5 or more IIRC, although there have been a couple of items which have appeared to UK account holders and not say Irish, despite no language barriers.
Hopefully GT5 Prologue proper will be available worldwide before Xmas (Dec 12th in Japan, not sure if its worldwide though).
In saying that, going from 8th to 1st in the first lap round Suzuka (first attempt) when theres a pair of Audi R8s and Ferrari F430s up ahead is a little dubious when your in a Nissan GTR, but visually its amazing, and its in the replays when you can look around and see so much more, for me its the inclusion of the insignificant stuff that makes it stand out. The sound is amazing, its quite something when you get alongside an F430 or even a Mustang and you can just feel the power. Only a few of the cars have in-car camera's, although 3 cars are currently locked (one of which is actually covered up, looks kinda Focus RS-esque) and will be unlocked over the next few days, but i found it quite funny that the BMW 135i had Sat Nav on the dashboard
As for 'Japan only'... dont make me laugh
I created my first US account on a mates PS3 before i even had one myself, its pretty much essential if you want the decent demo's and your in Europe as the yanks tend to get everything first as their demos are for 1 language, English, whereas the EU games need to be in 5 or more IIRC, although there have been a couple of items which have appeared to UK account holders and not say Irish, despite no language barriers.
Hopefully GT5 Prologue proper will be available worldwide before Xmas (Dec 12th in Japan, not sure if its worldwide though).
You've kindly made the point i would make, thx
LeMans, DTM, WTCC or any other open-wheel racing wouldnt pay crazy sums of money, because they dont have the huge sums of money that NASCAR has to offer.
Whether thats the ONLY factor in anyones choice is another matter, im sure it isnt, but you can be pretty sure its a key factor. Does everyone love their current job, heck no, but how many people would take a significant pay cut, cut back on things you've been accustomed to for the last few years, just to do something you prefer. He's a racing driver, and pretty much all the doors that were open for him would have been perfectly adequate, each will have their own perks, some more significant than others, but whether he'd pick NASCAR over another series if the perks were equal is another matter.
I'll occasionally watch the odd NASCAR race if i happen to be flicking through the stations, and i wont doubt for a second that it has its own challenges racing in such tightly packed bunches.
But lets be clear, the driving round the track bit isnt the challenging part of the sport is it, its the opportunitism and many other factors involved in racing side by side. Its a whole diffferent aspect of racing that its focusing on, and that requires its own skills and experience to master.
Im trying to think of a comparison, and the closest i can think of (which probably wont go down well!) is 10-pin bowling. Oval racing is effectively 10-pin bowling with the cusions in the alley! Its removing the possibility of a ball going into the gutter and not hitting the target. Nascar would rather have the close action, with an easier track, than have a challenging track and possibly lose a couple of people to the gutter.
I certainly wouldnt say F1 or any other form of racing is better for not having close racing, plenty of overtaking, and instead having challenging locations such as Monaco, Macau, Suzuka, LeMans & Laguna Seca etc etc But to me the track should be every bit as challenging as the people your racing with, you should be fighting with both!
Dont get me wrong, im not saying 'Oval racing is for thicko's who havent acquired the ability to drive round a real track' i think its a whole different skill that is required, and respect should be given to those who master it, as with anything, but i am of the opinion that road/race circuit racing is a more challenging and higher form of racing, but thats just my opinion and im quite fond of it.
As for 'Anti-American' attitudes, its the new Racism card! I've been accused of being America hating based on the fact that i pointed out that EU folks pay a hell of a lot more the US folks for their games, in a thread complaining about the dipping $USD vs £GBP meaning that LFS was more expensive, and pointed out that the shoe was now effectively on the other foot. It wasnt a 'haha suck it up yanks' post, just highlighting that we get shafted on a day to day basis, your getting shafted once and its hitting a nerve. Then I find myself on the receiving end of half a dozen replies saying im Anti-American and people saying just ignore it, we have to put up with this crap all the time, suddenly a innocent comment is taken as being offensive and people use it to fan the fire, and people are wrongly branded as being bigots. As a nation there certainly feels like a 'Us vs Them' attitude is adopted whenever an opinion is expressed about something with any American association. Its 2nd only to religious outcry such is the level of sensitivity around anything Americans hold close to their heart.
Seriously though, maybe sometimes a less bias interpretation on peoples comments would help matters, Mazz and a couple other people arent being Anti-American, they're pretty much pulling your leg, possibly not helping matters, but if your stop taking peoples silly comments as geniune insults and then start up the 'Europe is Anti-American' comments (particularly when people chose to quote comments and intentionally cut out a section clearly highlighting its a joke!). Its quite bizarre how many of the 'Anti-American' comments are as discriminative as those they're accusing people of.
"F1 has always been insanely selective, and that's because of the prestige of the sport. Remember Sebastian Bourdais had SUCH a hard time getting a ride in F1. I mean it even came to the point where I though F1 teams were actually biased against ChampCar, Indy guys.
Remember Michael Andretti also competed in F1 with Ayrton Senna. While Andretti was no where near successful, he did land a podium in his last race."
If Bourdais was that good, he'd have got a ride, team managers dont pass up a good thing because of the stars & stripes, lets be clear on that!
Andretti provides the perfect example, championship chasing chassis, multiple world champion teammate, 8 (i think) pittyful results for what the car is capable of. 1 race is 1 race, ironic that about 14 years on (1993 IIRC, Senna's last year at Mclaren) another rookie is paired with a multiple world champion, and sticks his car on the podium of the first 8-9 races of the season. Apples & Pears i know, but when you carry the Andretti name, get an extremely capable package handed to you, and a pretty wage too, your expected to do more than 'land a podium' after half a dozen races. Take ol Nige, back to back F1 & Indycar titles, you get given the perfect package, your expected to hit the floor running.
You have a right to your own opinion, as does everyone else, maybe some people are unfairly stereotyping (is their ever fair stereotyping??), but then your not helping much from what ive read so far. Try not to typecast nations, whether others do it to yours or otherwise, and just tell them to bugger off, dont reply back with 'thats exactly the attitude i'd expect from a xxxxxxxx'.
Im quite happy to wind up mates about being american (or whereever theyre from) on matters such as holding world series events and being kind enough to only invite yourselves, the overweight junk food eating attitude, stealing the English language and then re-writing and re-labelling stuff as you see fit, and stuff like that, but its done to people who i know will give as good as they get, and know its all in jest. Take some comments a little more light-hearted, dont adopt a 'us vs them' mentality unless they're making that perfectly clear as chances are that isnt their opinion. There are things about many nations that you'll have a completely different attitude towards, but it doesnt make you Anti- anything, it means you have a differing opinion. Spread the love a little
Last edited by PaulC2K, .
On point #3 about la Rosa & Eky, Eky actually forced (by nudging) la Rosa off the track and if you watch a reply la Rosa is actually on the brakes, he isnt nailing the throttle with target locked on. So really he's drove the guy off the track, and then its that same car that collided with him as he's trying to slow down and return onto the track. How much brake is being applied is unknown, but those tail lights were on, its not the typical actions of someone trying to ram someone off the track is it?? 
Point #1 Mika im not too sure about, he'd moved out to make the pass and was forced to take the line he was on by Eky trying to block. If your on the brakes and being pushed further from the racing line you've braked for, then you'll never make it. I'd tend to say that was 50/50 probably, both could have helped the issue, both decided to take the action they took, if anything Mika had his route forced upon him by the Audi, i dont see why Eky is surpised. Eitherway, i could understand a penalty being given to Mika, but neither helped, they were both subjected to their own stupidity and both punished by it.
I'd also agree with the comments about DTM being extremely lame with their punishments for some mild contact, sometimes you really have to wonder. Todays racing was heated, plenty of contact in there, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with rubbing panels and such, but sometimes theres some bizarre calls made.
Compare the punishment given out in BTCC to DTM, in BTCC you could turn up in a Zonda, drive the wrong way round the track and drive head on into 12 cars and only get a warning!!! DTM if your on the track at the same time as another driver your given a lifetime ban
Very disappointed with Audi's actions though, its one thing to be annoyed with the actions of some drivers, but to pull in the few none-signficiantly-scoring drivers they had still in the race to try and pull some kind of publicity stunt is pathetic, their drivers were giving just as good as they got, and as it happened they were unfortunate to be on the wrong side of most of the incidents, and to imply that Mercedes were intentionally driving aggressively towards Audi drivers is childish. Certainly you give your 'teammates' more room when its them your side by side with, but its absolute BS for Audi to suggest they wouldnt expect their drivers to fight for their places too, just as Eky did when showing la Rosa the gravel, and Rocky on Paffett, quite possibly an incident or 2 from the opening lap. Audi gave, Audi got, Audi spat their dummy out and quite possibly disillusioned a pretty impressive spanish crowd.
Id love to see Opel back in the series, first started watching back in the days when daddy Rosberg (Keke) was racing, before running the team, always liked the Calibra. Likewise it'd be great having Alfa there too, Mercedes, Audi, Alfa & Opel, that would be really enjoyable to watch.
WTCC... I watch it, but its not a scratch on the BTCC or DTM, its fairly bland IMO, just as todays races have shown. There seems to be very little consistancy from one race to the next, very little on-track action, and i cant even begin to describe how much i HATE the reversed grid, in WTCC, LFS races, ANYTHING! The number of races where someone has qualified so-so, managed to get themselves into 8th place, started race 2 on pole on then gone on to win is beyond a joke, if you saw the race 1 winner fight through and retake their place or come close to doing so on a regular basis (afterall, they were a top qualifier and won race 1!) then fair enough, but seeing the Brazilian geezer start from right at the back after a crash in qual or something, take 8th in race 1 and then win race 2 its wrong, and i dont give a hoot about this 'entertainment' aspect, particularly when it provides no more entertainment than without it.
Also, what the hell was Turkington doing there!? Get your junk car off the damn track, leave the drivers competing in the series to actually compete instead of getting in their way. Its one thing that he doesnt score points, but he can still disrupt a race by a mistake or just by attacking or defending places because there is always a knock-on effect it has. I might just pop along to Thruxton in a couple weeks time and jump onto the track, have a bit of fun and all that. I dont drive mind you, but what the heck, its all a bit of fun right?!
Point #1 Mika im not too sure about, he'd moved out to make the pass and was forced to take the line he was on by Eky trying to block. If your on the brakes and being pushed further from the racing line you've braked for, then you'll never make it. I'd tend to say that was 50/50 probably, both could have helped the issue, both decided to take the action they took, if anything Mika had his route forced upon him by the Audi, i dont see why Eky is surpised. Eitherway, i could understand a penalty being given to Mika, but neither helped, they were both subjected to their own stupidity and both punished by it.
I'd also agree with the comments about DTM being extremely lame with their punishments for some mild contact, sometimes you really have to wonder. Todays racing was heated, plenty of contact in there, and theres absolutely nothing wrong with rubbing panels and such, but sometimes theres some bizarre calls made.
Compare the punishment given out in BTCC to DTM, in BTCC you could turn up in a Zonda, drive the wrong way round the track and drive head on into 12 cars and only get a warning!!! DTM if your on the track at the same time as another driver your given a lifetime ban
Very disappointed with Audi's actions though, its one thing to be annoyed with the actions of some drivers, but to pull in the few none-signficiantly-scoring drivers they had still in the race to try and pull some kind of publicity stunt is pathetic, their drivers were giving just as good as they got, and as it happened they were unfortunate to be on the wrong side of most of the incidents, and to imply that Mercedes were intentionally driving aggressively towards Audi drivers is childish. Certainly you give your 'teammates' more room when its them your side by side with, but its absolute BS for Audi to suggest they wouldnt expect their drivers to fight for their places too, just as Eky did when showing la Rosa the gravel, and Rocky on Paffett, quite possibly an incident or 2 from the opening lap. Audi gave, Audi got, Audi spat their dummy out and quite possibly disillusioned a pretty impressive spanish crowd.
Id love to see Opel back in the series, first started watching back in the days when daddy Rosberg (Keke) was racing, before running the team, always liked the Calibra. Likewise it'd be great having Alfa there too, Mercedes, Audi, Alfa & Opel, that would be really enjoyable to watch.
WTCC... I watch it, but its not a scratch on the BTCC or DTM, its fairly bland IMO, just as todays races have shown. There seems to be very little consistancy from one race to the next, very little on-track action, and i cant even begin to describe how much i HATE the reversed grid, in WTCC, LFS races, ANYTHING! The number of races where someone has qualified so-so, managed to get themselves into 8th place, started race 2 on pole on then gone on to win is beyond a joke, if you saw the race 1 winner fight through and retake their place or come close to doing so on a regular basis (afterall, they were a top qualifier and won race 1!) then fair enough, but seeing the Brazilian geezer start from right at the back after a crash in qual or something, take 8th in race 1 and then win race 2 its wrong, and i dont give a hoot about this 'entertainment' aspect, particularly when it provides no more entertainment than without it.
Also, what the hell was Turkington doing there!? Get your junk car off the damn track, leave the drivers competing in the series to actually compete instead of getting in their way. Its one thing that he doesnt score points, but he can still disrupt a race by a mistake or just by attacking or defending places because there is always a knock-on effect it has. I might just pop along to Thruxton in a couple weeks time and jump onto the track, have a bit of fun and all that. I dont drive mind you, but what the heck, its all a bit of fun right?!
LOL
5th October 2006, 22:54
Cant say your not committed to answering any questions asked no matter how long ago they were asked!
Havent actually made use of the SDK for quite some time
, did our teams update for xmas and never got round to updating the SDK powered scripts (though i still plan to) but that should come in handy when i figure out what it might have been that I needed to do what i was asking about Cheers.
aaaaaaaah dont you start on about bl**dy linux again 
I had a feeling that there would be issues, im not particularly fussed about being able to hit 1200kb on a single download, but just to work like dual core processors it obviously has its benefit, its no more powerful than a single core but can do twice the work as you have 2 there to share the load.
Even if i had to assign one to torrent or download software and then leave the other one free for browsing or gaming (although the CPU & HDD load from downloading wouldnt be helpful) that would be a big help, as its a real kick in the cnut working on a website waiting 30sec for a 4kb file to u/l while downloading at what everyone reminds me is no more than a snails pace.
Cisco huh, they couldnt even provide CTU with triple HD monitors when poor Jack Bauer is trying to save the world!!!
I had a feeling that there would be issues, im not particularly fussed about being able to hit 1200kb on a single download, but just to work like dual core processors it obviously has its benefit, its no more powerful than a single core but can do twice the work as you have 2 there to share the load.
Even if i had to assign one to torrent or download software and then leave the other one free for browsing or gaming (although the CPU & HDD load from downloading wouldnt be helpful) that would be a big help, as its a real kick in the cnut working on a website waiting 30sec for a 4kb file to u/l while downloading at what everyone reminds me is no more than a snails pace.
Cisco huh, they couldnt even provide CTU with triple HD monitors when poor Jack Bauer is trying to save the world!!!
internet/mobo/OS question
Dual network port on mobo, i have 2 phone lines, one currently has a internet connection connected to it (due an upgrade in 2-3wks from bl**dy 512kbit) and the original phone (also had internet through it, not that thats important).
What im wondering is if i get reeeally greedy and wanted to add an additional internet connection onto what is currently just a phone line, will my mobo (or more likely the OS) be okay with dealing with me chit-chatting to the WWW via 2 IP addresses?
Would love to go from 58KB downloads to doubling up a pair of 5.5mbit to reach 1200KB, but just wondering if there would be conflicts in doing this?
Cheers in advance
What im wondering is if i get reeeally greedy and wanted to add an additional internet connection onto what is currently just a phone line, will my mobo (or more likely the OS) be okay with dealing with me chit-chatting to the WWW via 2 IP addresses?
Would love to go from 58KB downloads to doubling up a pair of 5.5mbit to reach 1200KB, but just wondering if there would be conflicts in doing this?
Cheers in advance
Yes, Tis true, I am Bawbag, unfortunately whenever both BawBag and PaulC2K are on the track i spend more focus on the BawBag user than the PaulC2K one, which is why PaulC2K is so slow and crashes into everything.
When they're not on the track at the same time i have to keep up the act, its only fair.
Wow, what a weight of my shoulders
Well, it should be a mix of short and long tracks, as well as mixed lengths etc
Im sure for the most part the testers were lapping round all tracks and holding much shorter races as is the norm for public racing, while doing longer events more organised rather than 2-3 people that happen to be around and fancy doing this. However with all that said, what was released was what we have as S2 Alpha, un-balanced cars in which some have stretched far beyond being competitive with others in the class. FZR is the only car in the GTR class, the others serve little purpose competitively because its has 2 key factors, acceleration & speed, its a bit of a handful but the fact that i HATE rwd cars with a passion, but could beat my FXR times by being uber careful just proved to me how wrong things are. The 1 downside is fuel consumption, its noticeable over endurance distances but the weight difference for it compared to the other 2 cars isnt significant in shorter races either.
TBO class is the same, FXO wins hands down (this has been so since S1), the same S1 that had grid spots where cars had 2 tyres down the train/tram lines at South City. Things like that frustraite me, i know its not easy to catch every single bug/problem but it sometimes makes me wonder.
Anyway, it needs input from the people testing it to step up and say this s__t just aint right, often additional new features will make stuff that worked perfect come all out of shape, and that has to be accepted, but it would be nice if continual effort was made to adjust matters like balancing. The only reason i see for not continously fiddling with balancing is consistancy and the HLVC charts.
Cue-Ball:
Agreed, with the power LFSW has available to it, it surely isnt that hard to draw a comparison chart and map out things using that data till its balanced. It does bring up the issue i mentioned of it d**king with the HLVC charts (not that i give a hoot) as personally i'd happily see it disabled for 3 months while such issues were resolved, its for everyones benefit.
I also hope lap times arent the single thing taken into account, currently the FXO is being weighed down, removing 10% surface contact and slowed down by restrictors n stuff, the fact that the RB4 which is by far and away the easiest of the 3 cars is currently waaay faster doesnt seem to be an issue, its lightning off the blocks and shoots past everyone on the grid (esp in S1 days) so i just hope thought goes beyond what each car can do from a flying lap.
I think many people would be happy to help even if it was just Test-Global balancing, something only effected in Test patches so everyone else could carry on if the so wished to. It needs a community effort, but most importantly it needs a Dev team willing to tinker, and it seems we finally have that for this (significant) issue at least.
Im sure for the most part the testers were lapping round all tracks and holding much shorter races as is the norm for public racing, while doing longer events more organised rather than 2-3 people that happen to be around and fancy doing this. However with all that said, what was released was what we have as S2 Alpha, un-balanced cars in which some have stretched far beyond being competitive with others in the class. FZR is the only car in the GTR class, the others serve little purpose competitively because its has 2 key factors, acceleration & speed, its a bit of a handful but the fact that i HATE rwd cars with a passion, but could beat my FXR times by being uber careful just proved to me how wrong things are. The 1 downside is fuel consumption, its noticeable over endurance distances but the weight difference for it compared to the other 2 cars isnt significant in shorter races either.
TBO class is the same, FXO wins hands down (this has been so since S1), the same S1 that had grid spots where cars had 2 tyres down the train/tram lines at South City. Things like that frustraite me, i know its not easy to catch every single bug/problem but it sometimes makes me wonder.
Anyway, it needs input from the people testing it to step up and say this s__t just aint right, often additional new features will make stuff that worked perfect come all out of shape, and that has to be accepted, but it would be nice if continual effort was made to adjust matters like balancing. The only reason i see for not continously fiddling with balancing is consistancy and the HLVC charts.
Cue-Ball:
Agreed, with the power LFSW has available to it, it surely isnt that hard to draw a comparison chart and map out things using that data till its balanced. It does bring up the issue i mentioned of it d**king with the HLVC charts (not that i give a hoot) as personally i'd happily see it disabled for 3 months while such issues were resolved, its for everyones benefit.
I also hope lap times arent the single thing taken into account, currently the FXO is being weighed down, removing 10% surface contact and slowed down by restrictors n stuff, the fact that the RB4 which is by far and away the easiest of the 3 cars is currently waaay faster doesnt seem to be an issue, its lightning off the blocks and shoots past everyone on the grid (esp in S1 days) so i just hope thought goes beyond what each car can do from a flying lap.
I think many people would be happy to help even if it was just Test-Global balancing, something only effected in Test patches so everyone else could carry on if the so wished to. It needs a community effort, but most importantly it needs a Dev team willing to tinker, and it seems we finally have that for this (significant) issue at least.
it could be done by allowing 'private' servers to force a system, as in order to know the password you should have agreed to the terms involved, your part of an organised group rather than a public server where you could randomly join.
Allowing the public servers to force handicaps isnt a bad idea, however im pretty sure that Scawen has said he doesnt care about this right now, the matter of the cars being unbalanced is its own problem and NOT one he wants solving by everyone coming up with their or answer to the problem.
Balancing will be done in due course, i get the impression handycaps were a mixture of being a short term answer to the problem and also the arrival of a worthwhile feature, however probably not for the way that the community is wanting to use it.
That along with what others have said seems to be the outlines of what its for, its not intended to balance classes out, so a server doesnt need to force weight onto a specific car. The balancing will be done globally when the time comes for this to be done (hopefully sooner rather than later) but the fact that some tweaking of certain cars has been done may be confusing the matter.
I just hope it gets done properly, I remember hearing that the testers would met up for 1+ hour races to test them for longer distance races, and ignoring changes made some time after Alpha was released, those GTR cars werent balanced for pick-up races (easily 99% of the races in LFS) or the organised ones, the tyre changes have magnified that too. Argue its Alpha, but i'd like to counter argue p*** poor testing. So hopefully when it comes to balancing everything properly it will be done so with more thought than was given to its Alpha release.
Allowing the public servers to force handicaps isnt a bad idea, however im pretty sure that Scawen has said he doesnt care about this right now, the matter of the cars being unbalanced is its own problem and NOT one he wants solving by everyone coming up with their or answer to the problem.
Balancing will be done in due course, i get the impression handycaps were a mixture of being a short term answer to the problem and also the arrival of a worthwhile feature, however probably not for the way that the community is wanting to use it.
That along with what others have said seems to be the outlines of what its for, its not intended to balance classes out, so a server doesnt need to force weight onto a specific car. The balancing will be done globally when the time comes for this to be done (hopefully sooner rather than later) but the fact that some tweaking of certain cars has been done may be confusing the matter.
I just hope it gets done properly, I remember hearing that the testers would met up for 1+ hour races to test them for longer distance races, and ignoring changes made some time after Alpha was released, those GTR cars werent balanced for pick-up races (easily 99% of the races in LFS) or the organised ones, the tyre changes have magnified that too. Argue its Alpha, but i'd like to counter argue p*** poor testing. So hopefully when it comes to balancing everything properly it will be done so with more thought than was given to its Alpha release.
I remember suggesting similar years ago about charging a bloomin fortune for the tools to do such things in the future, its the only logical way of allowing those with the willpower and dedication to take on such a task. Its no like picking up photoshop and botching something, they're professional tools which create these results, and i dont think they should be put in the hands of the casual gamer who thinks their botch-job efforts are what the community would want.
I'd love to have a go at it all, and if i had to pay say £100 in order to do so, i know for damn sure i aint going to pay for it have a little play and then say 'feck it', im going to sit down and do whatever it takes to get the results required. The downside is that the community would then be partly dependant on certain figures/groups paying for the software and spending hours coming up with these creations, while everyone sits round waiting for them having paid nothing.
It could be amazing, but it could just as easily be quite horrific.
Its either a mass free-for-all, sky-high costs to keep the 'riff-raff' out, or heavy moderation of what is acceptable and approved into the community... or a mix of all 3.
Free-for-all is just a very scary prospect im certain will never happen, i doubt the Dev team would just open the doors and let the rush of sub-standard pap come flooding through with the occasional appearance of a true jem.
I'd love to have a go at it all, and if i had to pay say £100 in order to do so, i know for damn sure i aint going to pay for it have a little play and then say 'feck it', im going to sit down and do whatever it takes to get the results required. The downside is that the community would then be partly dependant on certain figures/groups paying for the software and spending hours coming up with these creations, while everyone sits round waiting for them having paid nothing.
It could be amazing, but it could just as easily be quite horrific.
Its either a mass free-for-all, sky-high costs to keep the 'riff-raff' out, or heavy moderation of what is acceptable and approved into the community... or a mix of all 3.
Free-for-all is just a very scary prospect im certain will never happen, i doubt the Dev team would just open the doors and let the rush of sub-standard pap come flooding through with the occasional appearance of a true jem.
I think the Mercury Boys gonna have to bring some pain!
Guess i better go re-install that badboy and go through all the cr*p of installing patch after patch after Add-on after Add-on...zzzzzzzz
Havent played since about August, know a few of the guys re-installed there copys last week to go back to it again, havent played 2142 since Xmas but BF2 was always better and the player roles have deeper meaning, and play a bigger role.
Baggsie being the tank wh*re
Mark, If the patch isnt installing, keeps failing on you for no real reason then check your HD room, it needs something like 1.5gb of free space in order to do it, it wont occupy the whole lot but i'd guess it needs to uncompress quite a lot of data to a temp area and then will remove it all afterwards, i know its caught be out a few times when everything seemed to be just fine.
Guess i better go re-install that badboy and go through all the cr*p of installing patch after patch after Add-on after Add-on...zzzzzzzz
Havent played since about August, know a few of the guys re-installed there copys last week to go back to it again, havent played 2142 since Xmas but BF2 was always better and the player roles have deeper meaning, and play a bigger role.
Baggsie being the tank wh*re
Mark, If the patch isnt installing, keeps failing on you for no real reason then check your HD room, it needs something like 1.5gb of free space in order to do it, it wont occupy the whole lot but i'd guess it needs to uncompress quite a lot of data to a temp area and then will remove it all afterwards, i know its caught be out a few times when everything seemed to be just fine.
Pecker - 'we' got emailed about a week ago saying that we could have it updated to W if required, cant quite remember why it wasnt there as a setting to enable us to update via the game panel but there probably was one.
'we' also got an email saying i'd submitted a ticket, which was news to me at the time!! hehe
'we' also got an email saying i'd submitted a ticket, which was news to me at the time!!
heheMissed it unfortunately
Had to settle for being there instead, but hey-ho, you win some you lose some.
Smith played exactly how he plays best, never giving the defenders a chance to settle with the ball, chasing it down and basically running round the pitch like a man posessed. He was fortunate to get the ball to put him on for the goal but you cant deny that was beautifully made and tucked away, 5 passes by 5 players, 1 touch each from one end to the other and it ends up in the back of the net.
Having those first 3 goals go in so quickly their heads went down and thankfully rather than backing down and holding onto what we'd got (only a 4-2 lead, nothing concreate) we carried on and continued to hold no prisoners.
Fantastic atmosphere, near perfect performance from all the players, fantastic night of football and possibly 3 from 4 english teams in the final and a damn good shout at an all English final. I dont think theres a more frightful prospect than a Utd v Liverpool final, losing that just doesnt bare thinking about.
Neither does a possible Utd v Chelsea final, which could mean playing them 3 times in an extremely confined timespan of something like 2 weeks (League, and then possibly CL and/or FA Cup) where either team could come out of those 3 games as the competition winners.
Just waiting for the highlights and the full match torrent to get a move on
Actually, were Manchester United, or 'The Hammers, Spurs, Red, Blues and Whites, Barcodes....'
Good, you can hand us our trophy back.
Bloody Media guppy!
Instead of watching Cut & Paste Italian media stories trying to put things in an Anti-English Hooligan spin, open your eyes and wake up!
http://mediacenter.corriere.it/Media...0-0003ba99c53b
ITALIAN website, No cuts, No spin, just raw footage which is indisputable and undefendable!
No steward was 'attached' or attacked either, they come through a 1 man wall of stewards stood on 1 in 3-5 steps, hardly a wall, and hardly any need to attack them to get through to the divider wall. So no stewards were attacked!
Then the police do a mild batton swinging session, see how much needless blood can be spilt of the people walking away from the center of the incident.
The coppers, who'd decided to continuously beat the people on the ground defenseless, who'd caused things to escalate were then getting abuse shouted at them from the fans, most of which appear to be with people who'd just had the crap beat out of them!
There isnt a moment where a 'huge crowd of MU fans' surround the cops, and if they did, SO GOD DAMN WHAT? Beat the crap out of them?? If someone starts attacking them, then thats inexcusable, but instead the Riot Control police fire the first bullet!!
Can i also remind you that this is a football ground, and half of the fans 'surrounding' the coppers are in there god damn seats they've paid to be in! The riot police are the ones placing themselves right in the middle of the trouble, they made NO attempt to retreat and lower the level on intensity, instead they stay put in with the fans when theres plenty of room on the right hand side where they were originally.
" What MU fans do? Attack police obviously!"
You sad, sad little boy! Thats exactly what they were doing wasnt it, it wasnt running away from the stupid idiots put there to CONTROL RIOTS who were swinging their battons at anyone within arms reach, of course it wasnt!
Utd fans didnt start the initial smalltime charge, Roma fans did.
Utd fans didnt start fighting or attacking anyone first, Riot police did.
Utd fans, rightfully p*ssed off ones at that, yelled abuse and in some cases asked for medical attention, and got the crap beat out of them for doing so by the people employed to KEEP THE PEACE.
The Utd fans *Played their part* however NOBODY deserved an ounce of what those Italian pigs were dishing out. You cant throw the first punch as a peacekeeper with battons vs a load of p*ssed off supporters who've just seen them kick lumps of cr*p out of their fellow supporters for no justifiable reason. Its that simple!
Woz:
Selective, sure, but you only need to look at the CCTV footage which is unedited and shows things without prejudice, and its clear as day.
I read your post, and every single point you had to make was based on the fact that the Fans started it, at NO point do you suggest that it WASNT justifiable, your basically laying the blame on the Fans because they made the first move, that move DIDNT justify what they received, but apparently your more interested in consistantly blaming the fans.
'So you are saying that the behaviour is fine?'
What, acting like a bit of a d*ck through a sheet of plastic, no mate thats absolutely scandalous and each one of them should be lined up an executed, clearly 'give it all that' is shocking and im only assuming that the world media have been zapped 'MIB' Style and forgotten about those actions because otherwise they'd be headline news.
Im sure a god is looking down thinking 'what has the world come to when a bunch of idiots try and look hard to other idiots trying to look hard', and both god and yourself would be right, as i say we must hunt these people down and punish them for what they have done!
Or maybe thats the 1 response stupider than what the Italian police felt would defuse the situation and bring peace back to the matter.
A flame alone is harmless, but throw petrol onto it and nasty sh*t happens. Sure the match and the petrol are fine seperated, but just because the match is lit does it come close to excusing or justifying the result when the 2 meet.
It doesnt take a genius to figure the police were the catalyst which caused the explosive scenes, both parts played their parts, but continuously bringing up the fact that if A & B hadnt happened then X wouldnt have happened.
Dalek0220:
Shut the f*ck up until your actually know what your talking about
"I hate Man Utd, cause they are Liverpools rivals, and cause they also, stole our nick name."
PLEASE give everyone the pleasure of being reminded what Manchester Uniteds nickname is, and then remind everyone what Liverpool FC's nickname is, were all dying to know.
If your going to support Liverpool despite living in a completely different country and CLEARLY are nothing more than a sheep following the heard, spend some time to figure out what your hearing is absolute toss.
Figure it out yourself you stupid ignorant sheep.
Take a lesson from G-Fresh on how to be a proper supporter instead of just a little idiot that cant think for itself. I have my own opinions of Liverpool FC, just as im sure G-Fresh and many Liverpool fans have of Manchester United, but have you noticed that it IS actually possible to have a discussion without bringing up childish nonsense, inaccurate childish nonsense at that.
Seeing as your such a dyed in the wool supporter, clearly you know everything there is for your wonderful Liverpool FC, or 'The Red Devils' as you like to call them
so you'd know where that lovely little 'anthem' you lovable scamps hold so dear to your hearts originates from, wouldnt you? 'YNWA' , I believe they're team play in a red shirt, Lancashire based, but i cant for the life of me think which set of fans were the first to sing it, and which team nicked it shortly after (I say shortly, i do mean 2-3 months later, so hardly a close call) and claimed it as their own. Dont suppose you happen to know which teams fans sang it first, and who were the stereotypical thieving scamps?Its so funny, what with you bringing up United supposedly stealing things from Liverpool.
Spend some time and learn about the team you support instead of just going off what you assume, think you know, or some other know-nothing fan tells you similar nonsense.
Thanks for your imput on this discussion, and for extending my opinions on people like yourself.
Chances are by now something may have clicked and you'll have realised your a silly little boy, but incase you havent, im awaiting your reply!!
G-Fresh:
Same Q to you as above seeing as that nitwit probably wont have the balls to comment on another Liverpool based matter.
Yes, i'd agree with that, if the barrier wasnt there, and was replaced with security, they may have approached each other but i find it very hard to believe they would have got to the dividing line of stewards/police.
However i dont think its the barrier really, it was the lack of anything really stopping them from doing what they did. Had a line of police been on either side of the barrier looking on for possible trouble, then there is no way either would have charged at those coppers, men with battons & solid plexiglass barrier = waste of anyones time.
The barriers for games as hate filled as Utd v Liverpool dont have all that much of a dividing line, they have about 2-man wide wall of coppers on each row seperating the 2 fans. Sometimes there will be say 10 seats either side empty, possibly with the netting stuff over the rows, but thats hardly a inpenatratable barrier.
For champions league matches are no different. Possibly less police presence, and those that are there arent armed with battons and sheilds, because the Utd fans have no interest in kicking off, so the only reason they'd step measures up would be if the away supporters were considered to be needing it, as they will on Tuesday.
From Wikipedia:
From Wozipedia:
From Wozipedia:
3 simple letters
S E Y
figure it out yourself
not only are you wrong, your a bloody idiot! people with your attitude should just remove yourself from the Gene pool for the sake of humanity!
You know humanity right, compasion... no?
'The week before a "fan" killed a fellow officer at a match. You probably know them and worked along side them.'
Yep, and what better way to make ammends for that as to attempt to even the score with a foreign teams supporter apparently.
'The fans on both sides have pushed past the grounds staff looking for a mob fight.'
And both stared each other through the Plexiglass giving each other the finger and pretended they're berti big bollox. The dibble did sod all to calm events, they basically threw petrol onto an volatile situation, and when it got nasty figured the best thing to do was throw some more on!
'You are outnumbered and in fear BUT your job is to keep them apart but at least you have a big stick to keep them at arms length.'
You are outnumbered but have about 60 other batton weilding maniacs hell-bent on hitting as many people as they can see.
There are 2 sets of fans there, a set of foreign fans and a set of locals.
Its well known that European coppers are absolute mongs (havent used that word for a while, im going with it!) and are nothing more than prehistoric club weilding cavemen trying to hit anything that moves. So, what do you do, put the coppers on the side of the barrier where they are with someone of the same nationality and way of life, or do they put the on the side with the foreigners who apparently fear for their lives who might shock-horror ask for some medical help after half a dozen of them just t**ted their mate while he's going back to the designated area, and having seen Johnny Foreigner ask for help confuses the concerned figure as being the son of satan and figures theres only 1 thing that can solve this problem.
They are Grade-A morons, that is their profession, they are to CONTROL riots, not help create them, not attack people currently causing no threats to anyone.
If someone is doing something that needs to be stopped, then you use the force that is deemed ACCEPTABLE, you dont just make the rules up as you see fit, they are supposedly trained professionals, and if it was any other situation except a football match it seems to me that you'd have a completely different attitude.
Fans charged, and for all of 10sec max basically screamed and shouted at each other, there was no attempt to stop it, there was no warning, no Plan A, B or C, it was straight in with the weapon and give everyone a damn good beating, whether that was required at the time or not, and if you feel that is acceptable then thats the disgraceful world you must live in.
Some fans are idiots, that doesnt give the police to retaliate in an even more idiotic manner.
There were 2 catalysts from that match, the Roma fans charging and taunting the Utd fans and them reacting to that. That wasnt going anywhere, and looking at it never would have either.
THEN in came the cops to apparently do their job of controlling a riot situation with about an EQUAL amount of fans doing something stupid. One set had battons, the other set were about to get 7 shades of s**t knocked out of them.
I dont think anyone has suggested that the fans were all angels, however the way things were handled you just seem to happily suggest that it was completely justifiable for the circumstances, hellbent on saying the fans only have themselves to blame for SOME fans being stupid, so collectively its tough cookie if you try and protect a fellow fan and you get a batton round the head.
Have a bit of common sense ey!
S E Y
figure it out yourself
not only are you wrong, your a bloody idiot! people with your attitude should just remove yourself from the Gene pool for the sake of humanity!
You know humanity right, compasion... no?
'The week before a "fan" killed a fellow officer at a match. You probably know them and worked along side them.'
Yep, and what better way to make ammends for that as to attempt to even the score with a foreign teams supporter apparently.
'The fans on both sides have pushed past the grounds staff looking for a mob fight.'
And both stared each other through the Plexiglass giving each other the finger and pretended they're berti big bollox. The dibble did sod all to calm events, they basically threw petrol onto an volatile situation, and when it got nasty figured the best thing to do was throw some more on!
'You are outnumbered and in fear BUT your job is to keep them apart but at least you have a big stick to keep them at arms length.'
You are outnumbered but have about 60 other batton weilding maniacs hell-bent on hitting as many people as they can see.
There are 2 sets of fans there, a set of foreign fans and a set of locals.
Its well known that European coppers are absolute mongs (havent used that word for a while, im going with it!) and are nothing more than prehistoric club weilding cavemen trying to hit anything that moves. So, what do you do, put the coppers on the side of the barrier where they are with someone of the same nationality and way of life, or do they put the on the side with the foreigners who apparently fear for their lives who might shock-horror ask for some medical help after half a dozen of them just t**ted their mate while he's going back to the designated area, and having seen Johnny Foreigner ask for help confuses the concerned figure as being the son of satan and figures theres only 1 thing that can solve this problem.
They are Grade-A morons, that is their profession, they are to CONTROL riots, not help create them, not attack people currently causing no threats to anyone.
If someone is doing something that needs to be stopped, then you use the force that is deemed ACCEPTABLE, you dont just make the rules up as you see fit, they are supposedly trained professionals, and if it was any other situation except a football match it seems to me that you'd have a completely different attitude.
Fans charged, and for all of 10sec max basically screamed and shouted at each other, there was no attempt to stop it, there was no warning, no Plan A, B or C, it was straight in with the weapon and give everyone a damn good beating, whether that was required at the time or not, and if you feel that is acceptable then thats the disgraceful world you must live in.
Some fans are idiots, that doesnt give the police to retaliate in an even more idiotic manner.
There were 2 catalysts from that match, the Roma fans charging and taunting the Utd fans and them reacting to that. That wasnt going anywhere, and looking at it never would have either.
THEN in came the cops to apparently do their job of controlling a riot situation with about an EQUAL amount of fans doing something stupid. One set had battons, the other set were about to get 7 shades of s**t knocked out of them.
I dont think anyone has suggested that the fans were all angels, however the way things were handled you just seem to happily suggest that it was completely justifiable for the circumstances, hellbent on saying the fans only have themselves to blame for SOME fans being stupid, so collectively its tough cookie if you try and protect a fellow fan and you get a batton round the head.
Have a bit of common sense ey!
http://mediacenter.corriere.it ... 36-11db-8b30-0003ba99c53b
Looks like stadium CCTV by the robotic jerky movement, but it shows quite a lot of what was going on in a pretty close quarter rather than zoomed right out and editted to show the 'juicy bits'.
Its not 100% how i remember things though, the charge in this website is shown in a completely different light, where the ultras are doing all the tauting and the utd fans standing behind the stewards line about 10 meters back, and then a few breaking through, but its hardly an mass charging, its more like tippy-toeing forward. As i say, that last bit definately doesnt show things correctly, im pretty sure there must have been a section off screen which broke away more aggressively in the later stages.
Theres definately clear examples of fans 'talking' with the riot police and then suddenly getting a beating for it, and bang on the 5min mark, there doesnt really seem to be anything happening, the some fans look to be yelling at the cops in anger over their actions, not inviting them or taunting them to kick-off, and yet all of a sudden the cops come forward fans start running away and the battons still continue to swing out to catch anyone they can.
That isnt Policing a situation, its just brutality.
Clearly the majority of fans are trying to calm the situ down and they're either seriously misjudging things (**** knows how, its pretty clear to see! Doesnt need any translation to get that message) as being threatening behaviour or they're just pig ignorant and feel they're above the law.
Ive not yet seen anything other than a still photo from the Spurs game, rarely turn the TV on and its hardly ever for the news
Looks like stadium CCTV by the robotic jerky movement, but it shows quite a lot of what was going on in a pretty close quarter rather than zoomed right out and editted to show the 'juicy bits'.
Its not 100% how i remember things though, the charge in this website is shown in a completely different light, where the ultras are doing all the tauting and the utd fans standing behind the stewards line about 10 meters back, and then a few breaking through, but its hardly an mass charging, its more like tippy-toeing forward. As i say, that last bit definately doesnt show things correctly, im pretty sure there must have been a section off screen which broke away more aggressively in the later stages.
Theres definately clear examples of fans 'talking' with the riot police and then suddenly getting a beating for it, and bang on the 5min mark, there doesnt really seem to be anything happening, the some fans look to be yelling at the cops in anger over their actions, not inviting them or taunting them to kick-off, and yet all of a sudden the cops come forward fans start running away and the battons still continue to swing out to catch anyone they can.
That isnt Policing a situation, its just brutality.
Clearly the majority of fans are trying to calm the situ down and they're either seriously misjudging things (**** knows how, its pretty clear to see! Doesnt need any translation to get that message) as being threatening behaviour or they're just pig ignorant and feel they're above the law.
Ive not yet seen anything other than a still photo from the Spurs game, rarely turn the TV on and its hardly ever for the news
They're Idiots FFS, but that doesnt justify the events.
They dealt with things on the Roma side just fine moving them away, yet the coppers for no other reason than the fact they felt they had licence to go in swinging.
If voilence was the ONLY way of braking things up, then maybe it could be argued as being justifiable, but you just have to use that youtube vid as proof, someone smacked round the head on the ground in a ball and the copper is in such grave danger from the bloke curled up protecting himself he feels he better swing a few times more, ignore the bloke asking him to calm down, and swings away some more.
The problem isnt the fans, its the police mentality that they can do this sort of thing and they're above the law. They mentioned not that long ago a riot police guy was killed during a similar type incident, NO ****ING WONDER!! Sooner or later doing that to the fans someone is going to turn round and start dishing it back out!
It wasnt unprovoked, the Utd fans werent angels minding their own business, but the actions of the police were WAY out of line, and you only have to look at the scale of government dept interest in this. Even that sh*thouse swedish ref (Anders Frisk) was at the game and basically said what we all know, that they're notorious for it, but get away with it. He was ref'ing a game there a few years back and was hit by a coin or something and the game was cancelled, was maybe 2 years back.
As for the Roma fans being 'banned' it'll never happen, but what will happen is the GMP will bankroll the match for every damn penny they can and use it as a perfect reason to demand additional money for games. I think its the wrong time of year for it, you can usually tell when the match day dibble are about to request additional funding, they turn up en-mass with there TV cameras perfectly placed to capture all the action, bizarrely at the same time as something rather coincidental like the away fans being allowed out at full time rather than being held back, or very little escorting of fans etc.
Still, it wasnt the Roma fans behind the main incident, there was the usual Ultra action going on before the game but nothing most people didnt already expect and possibly a few ultra's took a beating when attacking fans too. But as its been said the British scene has calmed down considerably, being a Utd ST holder the number of bloody daytrippers probably helps, and i actually have the 'honour' of having the prawn sarnie munching lot starting the row infront of me (2nd tier, facing the TV cams - bloody great seats, esp as the 2 seats infront have been occupied for half the games, then its the tunnel into the exec area we sneak into each game
).It'll be the same thing as with Lille though, all talk and no action. Although having Platini as #1 its no damn wonder he'd smooth things over. I think Utd got something like a £6k fine, Lille got £33k, which in my mind is 4hrs of Rio's salary, and possibly 2 weeks/10 days wage for Lille's top player.
That'll teach em.
Moosy, its also adding to a reputation that trouble follows English fans, which is far from the case.
Woz - You have a rather early 80's outlook on the whole 'people go to football matches just to fight', im pretty sure they could have got that in Salford if they wanted!
The video is a bit crap though, during the actual game (maybe half time) they actually showed it from much further out, from the Roma fans charging at the plexiglass and taughting and thats when the Utd fans did the same. The Roma fans had stewards kindly asking them to step away, the Utd fans got a batton round the skull.
Saying they were looking for a fight is bullcrap, its the same thing with most wannabee hoolies with the police line, its all 'come on then' and all the macho bullshit. They knew there was plexi and were just looking to be berti big bollox.
Its the same thing everywhere on the continent, Italy is very well known for their rubber bullets and batton weilding maniacs who see someone and start swinging. We've seen the same from the Spanish police, the Italians the night before and only a couple of weeks back the French were at it (again, to Utd fans being crushed, throw in some tear gas to calm the situation!!) and of course thanks to the hooligans at international matches just adds to a reputation, and these moronic coppers receive all the licence they feel they need to just go in swinging.
If the 2 sets of fans which charged at each other had been left to be idiots seperated by the barrier, would all hell have broke loose? So what exactly was the reason for going in swinging, there was no attempt to move people on, it was go in swinging, there were people moving away and they were grabbed back and given a beating, so exactly how can it be justified?
'No rush, no beating' my arse, that doesnt justify the police swinging away at people WITHOUT warning (At least Menezes got that much!) because they ran at people with a bloody plexiglass barrier between then.
2 set of fans did exactly the same thing, 1 lot got the crap beat out of them, the other was kindly ushered away and offered a selection of snacks and champaigne.
Idiots, yes, deserving of anything they were on the receiving end from a trigger happy bunch of coppers, hell no. If you think otherwise Woz then your an idiot too.
The video is a bit crap though, during the actual game (maybe half time) they actually showed it from much further out, from the Roma fans charging at the plexiglass and taughting and thats when the Utd fans did the same. The Roma fans had stewards kindly asking them to step away, the Utd fans got a batton round the skull.
Saying they were looking for a fight is bullcrap, its the same thing with most wannabee hoolies with the police line, its all 'come on then' and all the macho bullshit. They knew there was plexi and were just looking to be berti big bollox.
Its the same thing everywhere on the continent, Italy is very well known for their rubber bullets and batton weilding maniacs who see someone and start swinging. We've seen the same from the Spanish police, the Italians the night before and only a couple of weeks back the French were at it (again, to Utd fans being crushed, throw in some tear gas to calm the situation!!) and of course thanks to the hooligans at international matches just adds to a reputation, and these moronic coppers receive all the licence they feel they need to just go in swinging.
If the 2 sets of fans which charged at each other had been left to be idiots seperated by the barrier, would all hell have broke loose? So what exactly was the reason for going in swinging, there was no attempt to move people on, it was go in swinging, there were people moving away and they were grabbed back and given a beating, so exactly how can it be justified?
'No rush, no beating' my arse, that doesnt justify the police swinging away at people WITHOUT warning (At least Menezes got that much!) because they ran at people with a bloody plexiglass barrier between then.
2 set of fans did exactly the same thing, 1 lot got the crap beat out of them, the other was kindly ushered away and offered a selection of snacks and champaigne.
Idiots, yes, deserving of anything they were on the receiving end from a trigger happy bunch of coppers, hell no. If you think otherwise Woz then your an idiot too.
FGED GREDG RDFGDR GSFDG