Also searching for a movie, a high res of the Live for Speed Aspirations video that can be found on youtube.

With so many leagues up and actually producing broadcasts which are remarkably good (shameless STCC plug www.simtouringcarcup.com), I figured it was time for a commentary improvements suggestions thread.

(Nb. Please do not turn this into another thread for stopping James Allen from ruining formular one, if you wish to voice that opinion, please use this thread

http://www.lfsforum.net/showth ... ghlight=racing+commentary)


So, here are my suggestions, some of which apply to a lot of professional level commentary too come to think of it!

By the way, these are simply opinions, and as such I am hoping to get a feel for what exactly people want from a race commentary these days, i.e a debate, so I'm not going to blindly defend anything I've said. Also, yes, I would like to commentate for a league because I feel I know a lot about driving and motorsport, and I can put that accross in an interesting style, but, I might be wrong.

anyway!

• The crucial part of passing on the longest straight comes at the exit of the corner beforehand, namely the exit speed, and is not simply a case of "getting the legs" on another driver, all the cars have EXACTLY the same torque and horsepower, and as such any gain is 100% driver skill. Also, we all know that's where most overtaking is going to happen. I don't need to know that every time they're half way down the straight.

• Print a sheet of the cars, with driver names, skins they are using, and annotate on it before and during the race, umming and urring about who's just piled into the wall detracts from the action, especially when the viewer knows from looking already!
  
• It's alright to get a bit excited about a stunning piece of driving, while it is important not to scream down the mic every time someone stuff's a third of a bonnet up the inside of a corner, someone blandly saying "that was a nice pass", when a driver has just got through a tiny gap in a technical section at speed without any contact at all is a bit of an "understatement".
  
• I don't want to hear about "what you would have done", sounding like you're a better driver than they are is irratating, if you're really that much better, get on the track, it's not like it costs anything to enter a league here.... on the other hand, pointing out where one driver is excelling another and why is good, comparison and contrast is interesting.
  
• I do want to hear about the technology behind what is happening, although that's probably more to do with being a geek than just being a complete nut for any kind of motorsport. "all that nursing the tyres earlier really pays off", or "a slighter softer rear anti roll bar might calm the oversteer out of that corner exit" is interesting if correct, but don't go overboard.

Good points everyone, but every car has an absolutely perfect lap timer, if you want to be fast, that's what you need to be looking at, the speedo is a pitiful measure of performance compared to a lap timer.

I like looking at guages though, I like an excess of information, but I can drive just as fast without a speedometer. (IRL that is, I'm having trouble driving without any ffb, so I'm pretty slow generally, and hopeless in RWD with LFS.)

edit - Redman if you even read this: sorry to see you go from the STCC, good driving in round 1.

Last edited by z3r0c00l, Thu 12 Oct 2006, 16:43.

Stunning

thank you very much indeed

turn over a kart!?

driving on a velcro track with wool wheels or something!?!?!

lol, yeah there's some awful stuff on the UK roads atm, that pictures comes from the "Carbage" section of the top gear site, so many shocking cars on there, utter trash all of them.

Got Mods!?

Thank you for taking the time to explain.

See you on the track, apologies to everyone who was gagging for a VTEC sound and has subsequently had their idea beaten to death on this thread.

Kaynd - thank you for your detailed explanation, your english is good, exceptional considering the nature of the technical subject.

I had been aware of the compression waves of fuel mixture before, however I assumed it's affect to be negligable for four stroke engines, due to the fact there is an exhaust valve that shuts to allow compression, where as a two stroke requires back pressure provided by the expansion chamber to keep the mixture in the cylinder and out of the exhaust.

So essentially, while the variable valve timing may exist in motorsport, you would never get the trademark VTEC sound, as the cam profile switches a lot earlier and far more smoothly before a sudden step in power is noticable, and dropping off into an area of lacking acceleration is less likely as it is far lower down the rpm range and the power delivery is smoother than "the loudest vtec crossover ever lolz"


The result I wanted, all be it in a rounderbout kind of way! lol.


Does this mean every VTEC owner with an aftermarket exhaust system requires their VTEC extensively retuned to take advantage of the backpressure frequencies with the new system?

I agree with Tristan, in as much as all driver aids should be removed, except for formula 1, because that should be a competition for cars to go as quickly round the track as possible, as such there should be no engine tyre or aerodynamic limits.

In every car with traction control, ESP, whatever acronym that turns up on the latest car door in crappy plastic chrom lettering.... The first thing I do is switch it off. I don't like the idea that any thing can take control away from me as a driver, I've worked so hard to get good at it, and I'm a firm believer in my own ability, and my real world track times are testiment to that, as such, anything taking away from my driving experience is a definate negative. illepall

People don't crash planes very much becase they are lethal when that happens, people survive car crashes every day, me included. Put everything on something far more dangerous than a car, and eventually the crash rate will plummet, everyone who's going to crash will have done it already, and won't do it again!

lol, ok maybe not, but it's an interesting concept.

edit :

I can't find dyno charts for the same car with the VTEC enabled, disabled and normal, plus disabled and always in the wild cam profile. I don't think a conclusion about this is possible untill we find them!

Last edited by z3r0c00l, Fri 6 Oct 2006, 12:54.

I have one of those highstrung two stroke motorcycles, and I HATE IT! It's horrible to ride. so yes, you're right there!

If you had VTEC "kicked in" 100% of the time, you'd have more power low down.

If you have a powervalve open 100% of the time the bike will barely pull away under its own power.

Having the low lift cam profile at all is damaging to the cars peformance, you get less power. Having the lower exhuast exit port on a 2 stroke motorcycle means you can actually pull away without being above 7,000 rpm.

Those are my reasons for thinking they are fundamentally different, the only reason I race my crappy 2 stroke motorcycle is because it's cheap, I can get the engine overhauled for practically no money when I break it.

Powervalves are good for the track because without them you simply can't get any more than 12hp out of a 125 2 stroke engine, it will NOT rev high enough.

VTEC engines are bad for the track because as I understand it, VTEC doesn't give you any extra power top end, nor extend the power band further, or give it a higher redline, it takes away power lower down for drivability on the road.

The smoother you drive, the faster you can be, and that changeover will hurt your time in corners, and you will lose out compared to someone driving smoother than you are.

If someone could give me the Dyno charts for a car with VTEC, the same car with the timing always on the first cam lobe, and then another chart with it on the second cam lobe, I can prove VTEC has no track application, for any given set of corners (providing I've got the radius for a constant radius corner, or otherwise, plus the cornering force limit for the car in question, which is probably about 0.7 G)

Last edited by z3r0c00l, Fri 6 Oct 2006, 12:15.

Blowtus - I understand it's very much like VTEC, I just thought another, perhaps more extreme example might be worth a mention.

Does anyone know how much power does a VTEC engine lose low end with the VTEC stuck in the high rpm profile?

My main point, hence the bolding, is that while it's good for the street, it's bad for performance on the track. Air conditioning is good for street use, but that costs a lot of petrol, and a lot of power, and as such no track car is going to have it. I think since in LFS they are ALL track cars, VTEC doesn't really need to be coded in either. I'd rather the time was speant developing something else.

I'd rather be a consistantly quick driver than "cool" any day.

I don't believe VTEC has any place on a track, aside from track days. It's impressive technology, but impressive doesn't necessarily mean useful.

A race driver needs to keep the car balanced and smooth, at the degree of slip angle you're already at when driving on the limit of acceleration and cornering g force, a jump in power or engine compression, in either direction is going to put you into sever oversteer (RWD)/understeer(FWD), adding tenths of a second to your corner.

If the guy you're trying to pass slows down from peak corner speed mid corner, and you have to lift off, and you drop below your vtec crossover point, you're going to have to change down a gear, concequently by the time you've finished the straight after that corner, you'll be 5 car lengths behind him.... losing.

2 stroke motorcycle engines have had this variable valve technology for atleast 20 years, it's good because of the massive difference of power, with my powervalve (i wish they'd call it something else) shut, I have 12bhp up to 7,000 rpm, at which point it splutters and stops revving any higher, probably a good time to have changed gear by, on the other hand, if I have it open, I have absolutely no power, like 6 bhp up to 7,000rpm, at which point i get up to about 22bhp at 13,000rpm and it will continue climbing to 16,000 (going past 14,000 has only happened a few times, usually when a ponse with a hat and a body kit tries to cut me up, which I don't allow.)

Back to the point, VTEC engines are not 2 stroke, they are 4 stroke, why rob yourself of power at the bottom end of the rpm range? In a race, one day you might need that power, it could win you a championship because you were able to survive the rest of the last lap in 3rd gear and hold onto 3rd place....

No real race car has ANYTHING on it that hurts performance unless the FIA enforce it for safety reasons, or the increase in reliability is worth the trade off, except, I don't think Honda's are any more reliable just because of a change in valve timing, if anything, that's something else to break....

Advantages - fuel consumption, noise level cut down, makes rice boys feel like they have Nitrous Oxide or a turbo because of the kick in power (however mild), but anyone can have a kick in power if they limit the power lower down up to a certain point.

Disadvantages - slower than if you just had a straight four engine with decent valve timing all the way accross the rpm range, heavier than your usual valve system, more likely to break than something simpler...

Conclusion: VTEC doesn't give you more top end power, it takes away bottom end power for noise and fuel advantages.

and by the way, being an SRT4 fanboy is no better than a VTAK fanboy, neither of them are race cars.

Last edited by z3r0c00l, Fri 6 Oct 2006, 11:43.

Thank you for all your valuable contribution. Enjoy the change .

The thing is, the cost of insuring cars is so expensive here, you might was well get something really good, it's only an extra 300 quid for me to insure a BMW 325i, instead of a tatty astra 1.6....

I'm 19, with 8 points for doing something skillful on a racebike I used to have, and one crash (before I knew the meaning of weight distribution.)

Buy something good, it's not much more money.

You're correct about the brake pads certainly, it's called green fade and results from pads that wern't heated and cooled correctly via a series of high speed hard stops when they were installed in the callipers. The binding agent vaporises, the gas between the pad and the brake concequently reduces friction significantly.

+1

It would also open a path of realism, where for league racing you could only have a limited number of tyres. It'd be a good way to keep racing close over the championship, as people who burn through their softer tyres quickly would be using more worn tyres for the next race, giving slower people an advantage.... sounds very competative to me.

Personally?

The N5,me still being a young idiot, I've torn up and down that section of road between Switzerland and Northern Italy so many times, the gradients, the turns, the road surface.... bliss. (while only passing through on a tour, some of the sections were worth repeating a number of times)

Till you come up from knee down round a corner and you're staring at the back of a caravan, still doing 80mph on an alpine road, then you get your brembo's on!

This was coming back out from Italy into Austria, at 9000ft, chilli con carni boils at about 50 centigrade, and my touring buddy's tiny radiator meant frequent cool down stops to stop pre-ignition in his cylinders!

That bike got me from the middle of Austria, to my house in Surrey, in TWENTY SIX HOURS(inc ferry ride). (average speed for germany - 128 mph, loaded with panniers) and yes... I did do it all in one go, best ride EVER.

Last edited by z3r0c00l, Tue 3 Oct 2006, 10:44.

I saw a veyron, in a supercar garage between my house in Dorking, and Ikea in Croyden. Thank christ I brought a spare pair of pants, that thing just bumped someone off the "7 wonders of the world" list.

You wouldn't believe the garage, if you stole a top of the line porsche, they wouldn't notice untill stock count, and there was the Mercedes McLaren, parked on the pavement outside.....

If you're using buttons for break and gas this can make it very difficult. Being smooth (that word has nothing to do with being slow) is one of the biggest parts of a truly fast driver. You can't get on the gas smoothly with a button, and stabbing at the gas means it has to be done later to avoid the back end trying to overtake the front....

Doesn't your momo have any pedals?

Another thing, the auto gearshifter has a lot of trouble shifting during heavy breaking (or even t3 in blackwood!), it's always fluffing around with the gearbox at corner entry preventing a settled entry, the throttle cut on gear change slows you down too, as everyone else is usually flat shifting, something I hope will die a death when engine damage makes its appearance.

I agree, it's called Racecraft.

Someone should run a server where inSim pits you and the other car instantly on contact - it must be possible, as the training sets can detect contact with another car and fail you for it. That would ensure a good clean race all the way through.

The problem with sim racing is - there's no cost to car damage, and as such no reason for people to stop "approaching the limits of grip" from the far side of the equation! Or shunting other people off the road, Most of the races I place well in are not because I'm fast (I've got an awful racing wheel with broken force feedback, I can race IRL), but because I get through all the corners without making contact, and other people get smashed off the track all around me. I think it comes from owning a motorbike, where you're used to being quick to avoid traffic wandering into your path 100% of the time.

I'm suprisingly impressed with that, if you combined it with a graphic equaliser to cut out certain ranges for the exhaust exit point, and put that through my rear speakers, with the original LFS sound up front, I think it could sound really quite convincing, assuming additions of transmission and drivetrain noise.

I don't see the attraction in revving an engine with no load anyway, if you HAVE to do it for a noise test fair enough, but why risk damaging you're engine, increasing wear and make everyone think you are a tosser(the last one is a certainty, not a risk)?

I would like a realistic rev limited in LFS because when I use a shifter, and I fluff a gear change (which does happen occasionally), and LFS has realistic engine damage, I would much rather it cut ignition to 2 cylinders, and top out at whatever RPM, than stretch a conrod/tag a valve going way past its safe loaded limit and ruining my race. This is why they are there on a race car, so that's how it should be in LFS,

LFS should be a racing simulation, not a tool for people to make crap video's of car's blowing up engines, we have a surplus of those already.