Quote from rane_nbg :

Hi, you should know that almost all world records in lfs are done with exatctly the same controls setup like yours. Especially, the demo cars are much much more easier to drive with mouse+keys.

I agree that lower power cars can be managed with mouse or even keyboard.
But I clicked through the hotlap charts and most WR and fast times are marked "w" for wheel. With only a few mouse drivers sprinkled inbetween.

In my opinion the big advantage of wheel is not in hotlapping. Hotlapping is basically learning that one excact line and unlimited retries until you get that one perfect run. It helps little in actual racing. In a race one perfect lap means nothing, instead you need many laps that do not have to be 100% at the limit but rather each lap has to be good enough.
You can not always drive the same line because other cars are in the way, you still have to make the turn despite missing the braking point, you have to recover from small and big mistakes. (instead of restarting), you have to fight for positions.
That is where wheel is in my experience much better than mouse. Sometimes mouse drivers do fast times in qualy but then in the race they do not always do as well and have higher DNF rates.

13" screen is tiny. For racing a big screen helps because you can see the apex of turns much better and also see cars beside you. There is a reason why any serious racing sim has support for multi-screen and/or VR. Headphones also help to hear where other cars are.

Multiple high quality mods have been made.
I think nobody can seriously disagree, that those are a great addition to LFS?
For example currently the E-Challenger series or the Rallyecross championship would not be possible without their respective cars.
If you read some threads or discord chat then you will see how people try to get details as close as possibe.
(taking meassurements of real cars, looking at suspension diagrams etc)

So that leaves the question, what about the bad mods? Why are there airplanes and other nonsense?
I think those mods fall into several categories:

1) People are learning the tools.
For example nikopdr writes about his racing lawnmover:
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/B894E9
"made as a learning practise to get used to the functions of the new LFS editor."
Such vehicle is good as first project because it is less complex than modeling a full sized car.
It is very likely that most first attempts a creating a LFS vehicle never get finished or do not get published. But if it turns out decent enough, why not publish it?

2) Experiments
An old topic in LFS forum was "A real life F1 car can drive upside down on the ceiling. Can the LFS BMW F1 do that, too?"
Once the layout-editor allowed to create a suitable track with ramps, it was tried - it worked.
So the next step is: What happens if a LFS car gets negative downforce - like an airplane?
It was only a matter of time until somebody would try it out.
How does LFS physics handle vehicles it was not meant for, like heavy trucks, busses or dragsters?
Some people just like pushing the game physics like that.

3) Mods that are basically LFS cars with small modifications:
Either again, it is people learning the tools with small projects.
Or it is just players who always wished that their favorite LFS car had a different engine or whatever.
Those mods can be filtered out by the "Tweak mods" filter.

4) For the lols.
Some users seem already familiar enough with the editor that they can create new mods without too much effort.
So they make a driveable trashbin just for amusement.

5) Low barrier to entry.
The editors are not that easy to use. But they seem userfriendly enough that many people can important some random 3D model from the internet, throw together some chasis and engine and make something that drivers.
..and so people do just that. Results may vary, some people do not really understand licenes and so on.
But it is the same story everywhere when people learn new skills. Not only in LFS but anywhere.
Millions of terrible stuff gets created daily by newbies: Horrible photoshops, awful code gets written, ear-hurting music is created. But people are proud and happy with their creations. Some will get better and eventually create content that others will enjoy too.

6) Cruisers
Some players like their cruise servers. They want as many different road-worthy vehicles as possible, physics do not matter that much. It is more important to have ambulances or cement mixer trucks for roleplay.
It is not my style of playing but really: The mods list comes with pictures. You can see that it is a delivery truck before downloading the mod. Just scroll past it.


The people who create silly mods are not trolls.
The guy who made the airplane also made a serious gokart:
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods?user=PedroXDBR

Look at the mods published by Jake_Blasted:
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods?user=Jake_Blasted
He made a tank and trucks.
And also he made the P166 and P126: Two good quality vintage racers in a quality comperable to LFS original cars.

Thats a strange looking miniature Lotus Elise

Quote from Aleksandr_124rus :

Better car damage - better carbody damage (Strange things happen in mods when high poly mesh get damaged)

That is usually an error in the mod and creators can fix it:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/post/1986239#post1986239

I see you have already started on the model but maybe for next project
How about a rear-engine layout? Like Auto Union Typ C:

view from all sides:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Autounion_TypC_BasicInfos_noBG_01.jpg

Or this Alfa:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Alfa_Romeo_Tipo_512

You can use H-shifter with any type of gearbox. Of course it will be a bit strange in some cases, like motorcycles or modern F1.

Of the official cars: I counted 12.
All the roadcars, the two roadsters, two of the GTR.

Of the mod cars:
Maybe 50%, there are too many to count.
It shows transmission type if you click on the pictures at https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods

Single seaters with H-pattern:
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/CFB38F
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/2CFDA1
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/18CF01
https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/6786C3
I might have missed some.

Quote :

Much bigger games and companies have no issue with it

That is not true.
The difference is maybe that most games have no official modsystem or automatic download.
Instead mods are usually hosted on external player-run websites. Such websites are much harder to shut down because anyone can create a new one or re-upload the mod to a filehosting service. But that does not make it legal. And sometimes they do get shut down.

Also when you look at the example games like BeamNG, there is always guidelines like this: https://wiki.beamng.com/Modding_Guidelines.html#To_avoid_.E2.9D.8C

As someone who also played rFactor (which has tons of mods):
It does have the same issues with copyright. The only difference is that unlike LFS, rF does not have an automatic mod download hosted on the official website.
On websites that hosted rF mods it was not uncommon to read threads like this:
https://www.isrtv.com/forums/topic/11732-rfactor-f1-mods-do-not-post-here/

Quote :

Snowrunner - for example - also has official support for vehicle mods. People modify licensed trucks from the game and release it on the official mod repository:
https://snowrunner.mod.io/
Players put custom wheels on them, bumpers, engines, paintjobs and attachments. Some even turn licensed vehicles into monster trucks

But from the comment section it seems they also have restrictions:

Quote :

"Chevy is not allowed to be Modded/Tweaked for Console"

The case of BMW formular car with Mercedes skins is something completly different. First thing, the BMW logos are not removeable and can not be painted over with skins . Second, it is likely part of the contract that the BMW cars can be painted like any other cars.

/edit: Two guys were faster typers than me.
This could have all been avoided by asking beforehand: "Why are are some cars not in the editor?"

Similiar, when looking for 3D models on websites, why not ask the uploader where the file comes from?
Oooh, some guy named xXxTuneStreetSwagLordxXx has uploaded 20 game-quality models in one month, with no website no portfolio, no WIP pictures. He says it is all free to download. Seems legit.
...
Whaaaat? It was a rip from Forza?! How could I have known?

Last edited by Gutholz, Tue, 22 Feb 2022 08:23.

To me it looks like this:
Red car is to the left of the track, already almost on grass. He has nowhere to go.
Black car is passing on the right and gets too near to red car.
As said, red car is already at the edge of the track. Yes, he turns the wheel a tiny bit to the right but I would not call it "steering into me before crash." It is just the normal small wheel movements that one always does even when going in a straight line.
He can not go further to the left else he would risk running off the track.
If you pass someone who is already that close to the grass and pass that close that any tiny movement will cause contact then it is imo your fault.

That is just my impression from the videos. 5 seconds video clips are too short to judge this.

To be honest the original model looked totally good enough to me.
But if you think you can do even better..thats okay too!

-audio is clipping (shift+a)
-text on license plate is shifted. Try text "12345678", the last letter will "wrap around" and a part of it is shown at left edgge.

The default setup and lowest possible suspension are too low.
The wheels clip through the body (especially front wheels when turning)

Otherwise great looking good, love the detailed cockpit.

Maybe it would be better to have the results in two or three columns? That would allow for 80 or 120 entries without need for extra buttons. I think it is better to have GUI that does not need rarely used extra buttons and would allow to show all results at once.

Qualifying modes are perfect use-case for insim or human admins, imo. Especially with how many possible variants and special rules there are.

Ah yes, outgauge settings. Looks like this now:

but still only zeros are displayed. Even when in cockpit view.

What I mainly want is small displays for: gear, rpm, speed.
Because some mods do not show that in the cockpit. I would like to disable all other messages/displays.

/edit:
Now it showed this attached error.
The german part reads: Usually every socket adress (protocol, network adress or connection) maybe only used once.
Maybe some sockets are not closed correctly?

Last edited by Gutholz, Thu, 3 Feb 2022 13:52.

Quote :

For now the application only connects via insim port 29999 and has no admin password set.

The app told me:
"InSim : password does not match your multiplayer admin password"
So I cleared the password I had set in "Start Server" menu and it worked.

In the pre-race screen, it should hide itself. (It makes the startgrid list disappear.)

Ingame the displayed numbers are just "0" "0,0" and "0,00%"?
They do not change when driving.

Mods that are still in development are marked with a "WIP". (= work in progress)

I understand your point.
I hate it on wikis or github (where multiple users edit text or code together) and someone commits dozen of changes every minute.
It is like everytime they save locally, they also upload or publish. That is not the way.
Many quick uploads should only be done when nessecary, which is rare.

https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/C0B610?changelog is another example
today, 5:44
today, 6:03
today, 6:29
today, 6:59
today, 7:16
today, 7:20
today, 7:40
today, 8:49
today, 8:51
today, 8:51
today, 8:54
today, 8:57
At least nobody is hassling them about more progress reports

With a few exceptions, most mods have only been used in casual short races.
I think it might be better to wait a bit. In the meantime see which cars turn out to be popular, test out balance in shorter events and races etc. It also allows people more time to get familiar with new cars and build setups.

random example: https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/CB9FC7?changelog has the last updates in 10 minutes intervals and ~10 updates in a few hours.

Quote :

Not to mention the mod package of every version is for that mod is existing in lfs files without replacing the older one, this is such a waste of space aswell .

Old versions need to be kept so that you can watch old replays.

There are situations where many uploads in a short time can be useful.
For example when several people are working on the physics together, giving feedback etc.
I think the better solution is an option an option to delete old versions (and re-download when needed, like skins)
Plus modders and server owners might have to think if too many updates or too many untested WIP cars are eventually becoming annoying.
It is also fault of servers when they allow so many WIP mods.

Quote from Desaparecido :

When is a new season?

Not FO8 but at the moment two other formular leagues are running.
with F1:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/497-Season-2
E-Challenger:
https://www.lfs.net/forum/507-E-Challenge-2022

I fail to find the post but someone explained it is caused by the engine properties. The torque curve and redline, something like that.

Here is a combo that the AI does not handle so well:
Buggy 1600 https://www.lfs.net/files/vehmods/277019 at Blackwood Rallyecross, both directions. Also Fernbay Rallye Green.
On the asphalt parts they brake in a way that just makes them skid for dozen of meters right past the turn, every time.

AI skins are randomly reseting between races. (Might be an old known bug, I never played much with AI) Once I had several mod cars and XRT, all with unique skins. After some restarts and track changes, half the cars were set to solid color paintshops. With the buggys, I had 6 cars in different colors. After changing track, all cars were black/white.

Also how about a button "Add as AI" in the garage next to "Join"?
To more easily add an AI with the current car,setup,skin.

There are only two oval tracks, for the longest time there was only one. Still people are doing oval races.
I think there are enough rallyecross tracks (including custom layouts) that there is decent places to race such buggy. It does not need roadtires in my opinion.

I was surprised how much it understeered on asphalt. Not saying if it is bad or unrealistic, honestly I have no idea, and I only tried briefly with mouse. Just when you brake from high speed and turn in a bit...you plow straight ahead. On dirt it handles better. Add some AI drivers on Blackwood Rallye or Fernbay Green, they act very surprised too. I guess it is due to all the weight at the rear.

new steering wheel is better than the old airplane yoke, but too small.
Compare it with the hands, it is only 3 hands wide or so. Hands animation is actually good though.

The rear lights can disappear into the chasis when the rear is damaged:

Sometimes that actually gives a nice effect ("lights destroyed in crash") but sometimes it looks bit strange.

When viewed from above, the level of detail changes to a solid colored block.

red&orange are Poly Parvus. White is a FT28R mod car with same problem.
Other cars are a default XRT, RR07, UZM 1700 TURBO: They still show some rough details (front window etc) at that distance.

Last edited by Gutholz, Mon, 31 Jan 2022 08:21.

I tried AI with various mods on Southcity and Westhill and they drove okay. I added 5 or 6 mod cars with 2 AI drivers each, using lower class race cars.
AI racing was more interesting to watch now because of the speed differences. Of course they did their known derpy moves and sometimes are too robotic in always driving the same line. But overall it is less noticeable with many different cars and there was more passing and action (good and bad) on track.

skin template generator:
Would it be possible to export wireframes with random background colors for the parts?
With some cars it is hard tell which part you are looking at. (road cars are easy but aero elements are often hard to identify. Now we have even more unusual shapres like go-karts)

Finally a dashboard but it is bit stretched/deformed.

When hitting a wall sideways, the wall is often visible through the cockpit. (See the attached replay from cockpitview) Maybe the collisionbox ist a bit off?

With latest testpatch it also gives warning "Cross-texture triangle found in LOD2 - mapping corrected" but I did not notice it causing problems, yet.

Last edited by Gutholz, Sun, 30 Jan 2022 22:36.

suspension looks way too low: the tires clip through the chasis.
Especially the front wheels clip when steering and max steering of 60° looks comically high..