Quote from lizardfolk :

Good response Woz. What you describe is actually how most Christians sees God. They dont see God as a puppet master, because Christians believe humans have the free will to make decisions. Based on the Christian ideology, this enables us to love and be loved by God. This also gives us responsibilities when we sin.

That's along the right lines, but i'll try to sharpen it up for ya'

The bible actually says that the free will it offers is, you have a choice to do what god says or not. When you give your life to Jesus, you're supposed to do exactly that. Give him your life, complete control, your opinion, desires, needs, wants, feelings, thoughts, emotions, time, body, money, indeed everything you are, everything you were, everything you'll ever be, is now HIS. You have no say in it at all. It's up to God what he does with you and your life. BUT, he gives the believer the 'free will', or the choice, whether to accept this or not, and the choice of how much of one's life they give to God.

However, it's made very apparent that if you do hold back on him and choose not to accept his will in your life then you have to pay the consequences. It's not so much a case of you having responsibilities when you sin, rather you will reap punishment whether you like it or not, or to put it another way, have to face the consequences of that sin in your life regardless. The bible very clearly states "The consequences of sin is death", now that's a way to keep the flock obedient if there ever was one ! Tough love indeed !

N.B. The biblical definition of sin is "anything that grieves the Spirit" i.e the Holy Spirit, i.e. The Spirit of God, i.e God and anything that goes against his will.

Many christians believe that the 'free will' thing means God will cover their backs and they won't have to face any punishment when they choose to ignore him and go their own way, i.e grace. But it don't mean that at all, not at all...Grace only comes into operation when you confess that sin, ask for forgiveness and repent from that sin (repent is a verb, it requires an action to be of any value) plus that repentance must be sincere, otherwise it don't mean a thing, not to an all knowing all seeing god. Apparently you can't pull the wool over Gods eyes Although many multimillionaire TV evangelists seem to think they can !

Last edited by Mazz4200, Sun, 30 Mar 2008 00:13.

edit: i'll just shut me face then....

Last edited by Mazz4200, Sun, 30 Mar 2008 11:18.

Quote from somasleep :

As we've made more and more scientific progress and begun explaining more and more physical phenomena some have jumped to the conclusing that EVERYTHING can be explained--including the explainer.

And Christians have jumped to the conclusion that everything--including the explainer can be explained by the bible..An ancient text that has great difficulty in backing up it's claims.

The bible claims that God created everything, including the various scientific laws of physics and our natural environment. Surely then, any claims the bible makes will be able to be proven within these laws of physics and the natural history of the planet. So why is there no geological proof whatsoever that supports a global flood and a supernaturally quick re-population of the entire planet only 4,500 yrs ago ? Or has god hidden the evidence in order to confound the wise and retain his air of mystery ?

From the time Noah and his family stepped from the ark to the destruction of the tower of babel was about 250yrs. If you're claiming a re-population exercise began with only 3 couples, what would the worlds population be in a mere 250yrs. And please lets be realistic here, lets not have any crazy plucked out of thin air population rates. The average rates today are 0.1% to 3% annually. Anyone fancy doing the maths on this ? it's beyond me

Last edited by Mazz4200, Sat, 29 Mar 2008 23:14. Reason : still editing, stay tuned...

Quote from Crashgate3 :

This is much better: http://www.firebox.com/product/2029 Affordable stereo-image VR glasses are something I've been waiting for for years. Agreed, I'd hesitate to apply the word 'affordable' to them but it's a step in the right direction.

I was looking at this type of thing last year. But every review i found basically said they're crap. Really low resolution making everything look really pixalated (spelling ?) and the motion tracking wasn't up to the job. And also the fact that you've got these things on means you can't see your controllers, meaning you have to do everything by touch. Might not be such a problem for driving, but i really wanted them for flightsim, and trying to find the keyboard and the right keys when you're essentially blind would become a tad irritating after a while. And they havn't really been that popular, so there must be a reason for that.

If you are thinking of getting one, then i really do recommend you do your research, they're not cheap by any means, and i don't think they do what they say on the tin. If i were you i'd hold on for a few years and wait till the technology catches up with the concept.

---

@Nitro...That jacket thing is £150 !!!, Give me a tenner and i'll come over there and hit you with a hammer, if you want.

Ahhh not a clue to be honest, not really my kind of flick.

I could always cheat of course and do some google hunting, but, it kinda takes the fun out of it for me.

Quote from David33 :

I thought you said you don't care.

Anyway, I do; I think that it's an interesting question; and it was not a rhetorical question.

I do note that many persons here are not merely unbelievers who don't care, but are so passionately anti-Christian that they jump at any chance to make their points, in that regard. Also, it seems to me that, before one becomes too eager to eliminate what many persons evidently regard as very valuable, it would be a good idea to know why they value it.

Lol, i'd just deleated that line, clicked on save, then saw you're post

That'll teach me to go make a cuppa between edits.

Anyway

Point a) Many people in here, myself included are ex-christians. But we were brave enough to ask those difficult questions, and, we simply didn't get acceptable answers.

Point b) Just because the masses value something doesn't mean to say it's correct, or even good. Just look at Pop Idol !!

Point c) It's part of the human mind/psyche/spirit/emotion to want to believe in something, anything, if it's something that promises nice things then even better. Religion gives people hope, and without hope, you're lost, without hope there's no point in even being alive. Ask anyone who's done time in prison, they'll tell you how important hope is. Hope springs eternal.

So tell us why YOU think the Western world has embraced christianity to such a fervent level when the rest of the world can take it or leave it ?

Last edited by Mazz4200, Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:37.

Quote from David33 :

Mickey Mouse has the same historical significance as the Bible?

That's a purely subjective point. Many would say he has as much credibility as the bibles does.

If you want to discuss the bibles influential status then lets decide whether we mean influential or coercive.

The Beatles, the Sex Pistols, Mozart, Bach, Da Vinci, Monet, Picasso. To my mind the works of these people were influential on a global scale. You could argue that the works of Napoleon, Stalin and Hitler were also influential on a global scale. But lets face it, they used manipulation, propaganda, fear, terror, coercion and the prospect of great rewards if obeyed. If you think the bible doesn't use these tactics, then i have to ask which version are you reading ?

Quote from David33 :

Not relevant to my question about why Christianity has been so significant in Western Culture.

Maybe not, but the bible is offering a global salvation, not just a salvation for westerners. If we dismiss the rest of the worlds cultures, religion and political status then we become nothing more than self righteous bigots, something the bible is very much against. The new testament is very big on preaching the gospel to the ends of the earth. But it would appear the ends of the earth arn't taken by the bible. Maybe we should also be asking, why not ?

Quote from David33 :

Judaism is still practiced in some parts of the world, particularly including Israel and the USA (and was practiced in Europe, to some considerable extent, until the Nazis came along; I don't know how popular it is in Europe, at this point in time).

This could get very indepth, and very sticky being such a huge and emotive subject, but i'll try to be brief.

Although it's difficult to separate the ancient Hebrew culture from Judaism, (being so intrinsically linked) We have to. From the beginning of the Hebrew people/nation/culture to the inception of Judaism as a recognised active religion, we have a time period of over 1,000yrs approx (although this is a rough estimate given the bibles rather poetic license with chronology) As i'm sure you'll know Judaism brought about the belief of one god and only one god. Unfortunately, if you search the scriptures you'll discover the ancient Hebrews didn't, they had many gods, and apparently these changed from generation from generation, usually depending upon which part of the world they had drifted into (remember they were essentially a nomadic nation, we call them pikeys over here )

Please don't fall into the trap of thinking that Judaism began as soon as Moses came down from the mountain after his 'encounter' with the 'all mighty'. The fleeing Israelites quickly went back to worshiping many gods shortly after entering 'the promised land' (although that's not strictly accurate, as there was no exodus). Anyway, it wasn't until the reign of King Josiah in i believe the 6th century BC that all the books of the torah were 're-discovered' after being lost for many many years. Then Josiah decided his people would now follow only one god and the laws and statutes written in the torah, and also decided to write six more books himself that would feature in the old testament.

So Orthodox Jewish culture has remained. yes. But Ancient Hebrew culture, no.

I could go on with this, and go into much greater detail, but i'm even beginning to bore myself now, to be honest...

Quote from David33 :

As I pointed out, Christianity was far from easy, for its early adherents.

Sorry, when i say it's easy, i mean the mechanics of the religion are relatively easy to understand and follow (on the surface at least)
However, I think you answered the question yourself a few posts above. The early church was greatly persecuted because it was a challenge to long held beliefs and religious practices. Something the men in power, wealth and positions of authority don't like.

As far as Emperor Constantine's 'conversion' is concerned. Maybe he did have a real awakening to christianity. Or maybe he began to see the groundswell of support for this new religion within his own subjects, and realising the Roman Empire was in terminal decay, he decided it would be best to join them, rather than fight against them. Did he have a kick up the arse from god, or was it for political reasons, was he simply trying to save his own skin ? I guess that's something we may never truly know

Quote from David33 :

I didn't ask how many people are practicing Christianity in the manner the bible expects. I asked why it became so popular, historically. An obvious answer is that Christians engaged in conquest. However, that is far from being the whole story; early Christians were in no position to conquer anything, and that also applies to many Christian missionaries in far-off lands.

Why are you asking a load of unbelievers why the world at large has accepted christianity ?. We don't care. We're smart enough not to get sucked into it, and hope others can see the inherent 'problems' within christianity. We only argue about this because we want christians to start asking those difficult questions about their own religion, those questions they've always been discouraged from asking, and too damn afraid to asked. Plus, we really like to argue in here, you may have noticed

If you are a believer then you should have a real communicative relationship with his holiness. Go ask him why christianity is number one, he's the one with all the answers, apparently. Then come back here and tell us, we'd all love to hear what he has to say on the subject !

Last edited by Mazz4200, Sat, 29 Mar 2008 21:16. Reason : spelling, grammar, the usual stuff...

Quote from BenjiMC :

I wanna see people battling for Pole running on fumes not with race fuel! Stupid rule causing stupid issues like that.

I agree.

But i'd make it so the teams had to state a fuel load they'll start the race with before the start of Q3.

Plus have a maximum lap time for in/out laps of max 107%

Although the Parc Ferme rule is a good one as it cut's down the possibility of cheating/changing setups etc

I voted for "I'll wear either" as long as i've got the money to pay for it at the time.

My normal everyday clothes are cheap and cheerful, but i do have a very expensive Italian section in my wardrobe too, set aside for those special occasions.

I couldn't give a toss about designer names or anything, as long as i don't look a scruff and they're good quality, i'm happy

Quote from Hankstar :

Then you'll need describe this god-hood. It'd be nice to know what to look out for.

http://file036a.bebo.com/3/lar ... 4356020496b611599769l.jpg

allegedly !

From my point of view it's simply far to early to tell whether it's worth a monthly subscription or not. And i won't be able to find that out until it's properly installed on my HD and i've driven nose first into the nearest wall at extremely high speed.

But my concern at this stage with only propaganda to go on. (and it's been said before, and i'm sure will be said again) I'm uneasy as to why they won't be releasing a free demo ? If their product really is as good as they think and say it is, then surely they'd have no worries about giving us a free taster ? Even drug dealers are wise to that one !

Quote from David33 :

A few considerations:

1) The Bible is almost certainly the most influential literature in human history. It is certainly a profound influence upon western culture.

I'll bet there's not one person on the planet who doesn't know who Mickey Mouse is, so what does that prove ?

Western Culture, as a pure guess, i'd say that's about 1/4 of the worlds population so lets not get too self centred here.

Quote from David33 :

2) It derives from the cultural tradition of a small population, living in the Middle East. Great empires have come and gone, but the Hebrew cultural tradition persists.

Where ?

You could say the original English culture still exists, but i for one havn't donned my suit of armour to go rescue a damsel in distress for years. (but then i'm a lazy git)

The Bible was written from an Ancient Hebrew culture, which is so far removed from anything that exists today as to make it nothing more than museum fodder.

Quote from David33 :

3) Christianity, derived from this cultural tradition, was horrifically persecuted by what was the most powerful empire for centuries. Nevertheless, Christianity persisted, and became EVEN MORE popular and influential (and this was accomplished, without any violent conquest, and even with great and violent efforts to suppress it, simply by the power of its ideas) - eventually becoming the cultural tradition of virtually all of Europe, and beyond.

Why?

Why indeed ?

Adhering to Old Testament Laws and ideals was damn hard work. Christianity is easy by comparison, just say sorry for all the bad things you've done in your life to an invisible god, tell him you really truly do believe in him, and bingo, you're sorted. No more hell and damnation.

Has it survived because its true, or has it survived because its easy ?

How many of the claimed 2 billion christians on the planet are actively participating and following their faith in the manner the bible expects ? as a percentage ?

Last edited by Mazz4200, Fri, 28 Mar 2008 22:42. Reason : spelling

Beats me

Think we'll need a clue and more pics.

Quote from lizardfolk :

Yes...because Orientals and Asians are not the same thing :ices_rofl

Only have to read the first paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental

In the UK an Oriental is someone from Japan, China etc, an Asian is someone from India, Pakistan etc

Apparently in the US the word Asian is used for all the above, which i'll admit is not something i knew until i read that wiki page.

Just another one of those difference's in a common language things.

Quote from Linsen :

Yeah, but at least there's no rabies in the UK.

Thats true, but we do have the Welsh.

And despite our love for clearly defined borders as Kalev pointed out, the damn blighters still manage to get in !

Quote from RocksGt :

And let me know if Alonso ever had a whining about Renault... maybe things at McLaren actually deserves that words indeed

Just a couple from 2006

http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/u ... 5032023&union_id=2914
http://uk.gamespot.com/pages/u ... 5039029&union_id=2914

Quote from The Moose :

Nothing to do with class at all. I went to a bog standard, common as muck high school in Exeter that had a rifle range. I joined the army cadets specially so i could do a bit of shooting there.
The novelty wore off pretty quickly though. Target shooting is just as satisfying with a decent air rifle.

Then maybe it's a North-South divide thing, or i just went to a really shit school...

Quote from David33 :

Noah also brought his sons, and their wives, along. Allegedly, these are the founders of principal races:

Ham -> Hamites (Negroes)
Shem -> Semites (Jews and Arabs)
Japheth -> Japhetites (Europeans)

Quote from Shotglass :

ham must have had quite a strong immune system
and i suppose asians are just naturally really good swimmers?

Shotty, didn't you know all Asians have gills and can breath underwater.
Same as Orientals
And Eskimos
And Native North American Indians
And Native South American Indians
And Australian Aboriginals
And Mauri's,
And the Welsh.

Last edited by Mazz4200, Fri, 28 Mar 2008 09:34.

No word of a lie this, but i had a dream last night about Grand Prix Legends....The Musical !!

Someone showed me a poster for it and asked if i wanted to go to the theatre to see it. It was called GPL (the bumps).com !

I declined the offer...

Can anyone here interpreting dreams ?, any ideas what the hell this ones supposed to tell me ? Should i grow a moustache and buy a pair of black leather trousers ?

I still have no idea who you are Kimberly, but i guess you havn't the faintest idea who i am either so it's honours even..

It sounded pretty nasty at one point. But it's good to hear you're alive and doing ok.

Keep smiling girl.

Quote from Hankstar :

I'm not sure myself either. What I do know is that in the 4th Century AD, the Council at Nicaea chaired by Emperor Constantine I was convened to resolve disputes between the already varying, conflicting sects of Christianity and decide once & for all on its core doctrines. I'm not sure if the selection of the various gospels happened here or later, but the end result is that the majority of gospels were rejected in favour of the ones we all know of. I'm just wondering how it is that you can sit around picking & choosing & rejecting bits of the true word of god as it suits you. Is that not blasphemy?

Indeed.

Oddly enough there was a programme about this very subject on the Beeb a couple of weeks ago, but i'll be darned if i can remember any of the facts from it.I think it simply came down to the same old same old, politics, sexism, personal opinions and basically who had the loudest voice and the most friends.

One of the hottest debates apparently was whether to included Mary Magdelanes extremely astute and inciteful writings.......guess who won !

Quote from Hankstar :

There's so much of this awful stuff in the Bible it makes me wonder exactly what percentage of the entire book has been discarded over the centuries in favour of the softer, more compassionate ideas.

Don't quote me on this, but for the New Testament i think it's either 27 or 40 extra texts. I've no idea how big these discarded texts were, but they contain all manner of stuff that the early church felt best to keep a secret.

Quote from somasleep :

No. Judaism and Islam both teach that adulterers should be stoned to death. It's Jesus who says, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And so did the old testament.

However, as you well know we are now living in New Testament times, a time when through the actions of Jesus all sins have been forgiven, and, if you're a believer, you've been delivered from all sins too. So therefore, all Christians ARE without sin (in biblical/christian theory) so are perfectly justified to cast as many stones as they wish. Remember that we've been forgiven for ALL sin, past, present and future.

But hang on, isn't christianity a pacifist society ? on one hand Jesus is saying it's fine to cast stones if you're sinless, and then made us sinless, than he says it's wrong to judge and harm others who arn't sinless. Can you see the confusion ?

Quote from somasleep :

What can we do about greed and selfishness? That's the problem that religion tries to solve. But it's not an easy problem.

But where does greed and selfishness come from ? As a Christian you'll know that we are all made in his image, so does that mean God himself is flawed, or does it mean he created something that was flawed in the first place ? Was this intentional, or simply a mistake on Gods part ?

Cup of tea..........check

Cigarettes..........check

Comfy chair........check

Ok, i'm all set....begin...

What a man

Didn't think anyone would get that ! http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076240/

You're up next marrah