Vykos was though, as he was the only person saying he'd be the Team Manager at that point, and he cared so little to reply saying he wasnt the person acting as TM for the German entry.
We'll need to double check each others PMs incase any were sent to 1 person, but seeing as i sent the PMs out i'd expect people to have at least replied back to me, but it needs to be checked.
We only received 4 replies, of the 13 PMs sent out.
Of those, we received 2 Yes, 3 No. (Yes, thats 5, one of those was mine, didnt PM myself
)
So, on the basis that we didnt receive the minimum 4 'Yes' votes, and unless 2 'yes' votes werent sent to me, i think its fairly safe to say the Qual round on the 1st of March will involve all 11 European countries initially invited, plus 5 new EU countries (Austria, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia & Sweden) and all 16 will be racing for one of 11 places in the series.
We only received 4 replies, of the 13 PMs sent out.
Of those, we received 2 Yes, 3 No. (Yes, thats 5, one of those was mine, didnt PM myself
)So, on the basis that we didnt receive the minimum 4 'Yes' votes, and unless 2 'yes' votes werent sent to me, i think its fairly safe to say the Qual round on the 1st of March will involve all 11 European countries initially invited, plus 5 new EU countries (Austria, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia & Sweden) and all 16 will be racing for one of 11 places in the series.
If you dont want to do your chit-chat in there, thats fine, however we'll need the team managers to be signed up and keeping an eye on things in there as theres a seperate forum just for any important discussions which the TM would be involved in as the representative for their country.
Also, an important reminder to all EU Team Managers & 'to be elected' TM's, replies to the PM sent out earlier in the week regarding this qualifying round are needed within the next 23hrs, we've had very few replies, certainly not enough to make even the slightest bit of difference to things, so without replies all 11 teams WILL be required to take part if they still wish to take part in the series.
Also, an important reminder to all EU Team Managers & 'to be elected' TM's, replies to the PM sent out earlier in the week regarding this qualifying round are needed within the next 23hrs, we've had very few replies, certainly not enough to make even the slightest bit of difference to things, so without replies all 11 teams WILL be required to take part if they still wish to take part in the series.
The currrent LFSWS userbars are here:
http://www.lfsworldseries.net/images/userbars/
1) I think were sticking with GB, inkeeping with A1GP and the Olympic teams. I cant think of any UK teams, though im guessing there probably are some out there.
2) Theres currently 16, a couple more may be added around 2/3/08.
http://www.lfsworldseries.net/images/userbars/
1) I think were sticking with GB, inkeeping with A1GP and the Olympic teams. I cant think of any UK teams, though im guessing there probably are some out there.
2) Theres currently 16, a couple more may be added around 2/3/08.
Misko (not entirely aimed at you btw),
This isnt the finished, how its going to be every season, format for the series, its the first year format, its what we want from the series in the future made smaller and easier to manage, but whats been infuriating is the fact that we, the organisers, apparently arent allowed to do this, were not allowed to decide how we want to start the series, apparently that has to be debated for weeks after we say how we want to do things, weeks after people have signed up to take part.
In future seasons, once people start seeing the success of the series (hopefully) then they'll be more inclinded to want to take part, and we'll have considerably larger signup and we will start using multiple servers, and *possibly* different approaches, and if that encourages more people to buy LFS licenses, become more involved in their community or decide to take the leap into organised racing, then thats great, its not our primary target i guess, but it'd be fantastic if we somehow inadvertently helped in other ways.
Right now though, we want something managable so we can assess things and make sure they're going to work with maybe 30+ countries involved, however we dont want to have 30+ teams on our backs the very first season if there are any problems which need resolving quickly.
Were mindful that the actions we take, as well as the overall feel of the series will have a big impact on public opinion of it, and for that reason were trying to enforce a few rules to ensure things run fairly so the final results hold up pretty well and making sure the teams have a good number of signups so we dont lose teams midway through. If we had 30+ teams and the balance just wasnt right, its hard convincing the whole community things are fixed, but starting with a smaller group and checking things, then introducing more than double the number of teams is far easier to get right. It might not be appreciated in the LFS community that were actively try to exclude a lot of countries, but they're only done because we feel its in the best interest of the series, were certainly not doing it because we think only theres only 16 teams who should be involved in a worldwide event, or because we like disappointing people when we exclude them, but its done because we feel we need to start off this way. Personally i think its a lot to ask of any new series, to expect it to hit its ultimate goal at the first attempt, and to do it accurately, fairly and faultlessly etc, and we just want the chance to get things rolling and let momentum gather in time, without p*ssing off half the community in the process.
Holding regional qualifying stages, then going to the finals, this would have meant the season stretching much longer than we'd planned, or having shorter finals at the very least. With there being about 5 European countries to each non-European country which has expressed an interest, or is likely to in future, that means we'd have to hold 1 non-EU group, and then at least 3 EU groups, each one having their own races, and the non-EU at a completely different time i'd imagine. Thats 4 races per qualifying round, of which each needs organising and then admin'ing for the race.
But ultimately, it would have involved more countries than we actually want to involve at this stage. It complicates matters far too much at this early stage, and we dont want to screw any chance of getting it off the ground at the first time of asking, because of peer pressure demanding that everyone who wants to drive MUST be allowed to.
We're not ignorant and dismiss general opinion without thought, but with some issues we have to be allowed to run the series how we think is best for it in the short term and the long term, if people take issue with something *and* can offer advice on alternatives, we'll listern, but some stuff we might act on, some stuff we wont or might not be able to at that time, but we'll at least answer to questions and suggestions, rather than ignore them and hopefully explain the reasons for our actions.
We want a successful series from this as much as anyone else, which is why were listerning, but we also have our own opinions, and sometimes these will have to be accepted as being our decision.
This isnt the finished, how its going to be every season, format for the series, its the first year format, its what we want from the series in the future made smaller and easier to manage, but whats been infuriating is the fact that we, the organisers, apparently arent allowed to do this, were not allowed to decide how we want to start the series, apparently that has to be debated for weeks after we say how we want to do things, weeks after people have signed up to take part.
In future seasons, once people start seeing the success of the series (hopefully) then they'll be more inclinded to want to take part, and we'll have considerably larger signup and we will start using multiple servers, and *possibly* different approaches, and if that encourages more people to buy LFS licenses, become more involved in their community or decide to take the leap into organised racing, then thats great, its not our primary target i guess, but it'd be fantastic if we somehow inadvertently helped in other ways.
Right now though, we want something managable so we can assess things and make sure they're going to work with maybe 30+ countries involved, however we dont want to have 30+ teams on our backs the very first season if there are any problems which need resolving quickly.
Were mindful that the actions we take, as well as the overall feel of the series will have a big impact on public opinion of it, and for that reason were trying to enforce a few rules to ensure things run fairly so the final results hold up pretty well and making sure the teams have a good number of signups so we dont lose teams midway through. If we had 30+ teams and the balance just wasnt right, its hard convincing the whole community things are fixed, but starting with a smaller group and checking things, then introducing more than double the number of teams is far easier to get right. It might not be appreciated in the LFS community that were actively try to exclude a lot of countries, but they're only done because we feel its in the best interest of the series, were certainly not doing it because we think only theres only 16 teams who should be involved in a worldwide event, or because we like disappointing people when we exclude them, but its done because we feel we need to start off this way. Personally i think its a lot to ask of any new series, to expect it to hit its ultimate goal at the first attempt, and to do it accurately, fairly and faultlessly etc, and we just want the chance to get things rolling and let momentum gather in time, without p*ssing off half the community in the process.
Holding regional qualifying stages, then going to the finals, this would have meant the season stretching much longer than we'd planned, or having shorter finals at the very least. With there being about 5 European countries to each non-European country which has expressed an interest, or is likely to in future, that means we'd have to hold 1 non-EU group, and then at least 3 EU groups, each one having their own races, and the non-EU at a completely different time i'd imagine. Thats 4 races per qualifying round, of which each needs organising and then admin'ing for the race.
But ultimately, it would have involved more countries than we actually want to involve at this stage. It complicates matters far too much at this early stage, and we dont want to screw any chance of getting it off the ground at the first time of asking, because of peer pressure demanding that everyone who wants to drive MUST be allowed to.
We're not ignorant and dismiss general opinion without thought, but with some issues we have to be allowed to run the series how we think is best for it in the short term and the long term, if people take issue with something *and* can offer advice on alternatives, we'll listern, but some stuff we might act on, some stuff we wont or might not be able to at that time, but we'll at least answer to questions and suggestions, rather than ignore them and hopefully explain the reasons for our actions.
We want a successful series from this as much as anyone else, which is why were listerning, but we also have our own opinions, and sometimes these will have to be accepted as being our decision.
baggy u n00b, he's not even suggesting that 
Ekze is talking about arrows suggestion of racing at 10/20UTC for alternative rounds, so Rnd 1/3/5/7 would be at one time, 2/4/6/8 would be another.
As for regional races, its a possibility for the future (already have a possible structure which would suit this) but that doesnt fit in with the intentions of the series as Arrow outlined them initially, though its possibly something to discuss for future seasons, depending on how this method goes, but certainly not something we'd expect to discuss anytime soon.
Ekze:
Theres basically 3 quarters of the globe covered, the start/end is Australia & Eastern Europe, the middle would be the America's, and as ive already explained in the post above, if you do what your suggesting, it means the USA races at say 4pm and 4am, whereas with fixed time starts its always 4pm which is managable. If you move the start time a small amount, either Aus or E.EU gets the short end of the stick, if you move it a large amount then the US & co are racing at an unacceptable time, and that would mean they'd only sensibly be able to attend half the rounds, which isnt good for them or the series. Also, if you alternate it, it creates confusion as to what time the start is this time round.
Ekze is talking about arrows suggestion of racing at 10/20UTC for alternative rounds, so Rnd 1/3/5/7 would be at one time, 2/4/6/8 would be another.
As for regional races, its a possibility for the future (already have a possible structure which would suit this) but that doesnt fit in with the intentions of the series as Arrow outlined them initially, though its possibly something to discuss for future seasons, depending on how this method goes, but certainly not something we'd expect to discuss anytime soon.
Ekze:
Theres basically 3 quarters of the globe covered, the start/end is Australia & Eastern Europe, the middle would be the America's, and as ive already explained in the post above, if you do what your suggesting, it means the USA races at say 4pm and 4am, whereas with fixed time starts its always 4pm which is managable. If you move the start time a small amount, either Aus or E.EU gets the short end of the stick, if you move it a large amount then the US & co are racing at an unacceptable time, and that would mean they'd only sensibly be able to attend half the rounds, which isnt good for them or the series. Also, if you alternate it, it creates confusion as to what time the start is this time round.
Yea, as Bawbag says, until last night it was all but confirmed as being 20UTC, however with 21UTC it becomes Midnight till 2am which IMO isnt too bad for a Saturday night, compared to the Aussies being asked to get up at 6am to race.
Its all part of a big compromise for the start/finish time, if you move the start time forward/backward an hour or 2, then either Australia or Eastern Europe are heavily inconvenienced (to completely unpractical times), if you change it by 10-14hrs it means the Americas are in the early AM's (2-8am) and its still not great for Aus/E.EU.
Its all part of a big compromise for the start/finish time, if you move the start time forward/backward an hour or 2, then either Australia or Eastern Europe are heavily inconvenienced (to completely unpractical times), if you change it by 10-14hrs it means the Americas are in the early AM's (2-8am) and its still not great for Aus/E.EU.
Race Start time added to initial post
Start time will be 21 UTC, this should make it more managable for Australian drivers, while keeping things do-able for Eastern Europe.
Series Points added to initial post
Start time will be 21 UTC, this should make it more managable for Australian drivers, while keeping things do-able for Eastern Europe.
Series Points added to initial post
New update post: http://www.lfsforum.net/showthread.php?t=39018
European Qual round
The last couple of days we've been looking at options to try and end all the disputes about who takes part, who doesnt, how its not fair and whatnot, so heres our solution.
1 European only qualification round
3 races, 1 night, same start time. March 1st @ 19UTC (this round only!)
2 drivers per country, per race.
20min Qual, 40min (approx) race.
This qualification round will consist of the following combo's:
(LFSWS Rnd 1) UF1 @ Aston Cadet (35 laps)
(LFSWS Rnd 5) FXR @ Aston Historic (20 laps)
(LFSWS Rnd 8) FO8 @ Westhill International (30 laps)
Heres the tricky bit...
Because we've already agreed to allow 11 countries to participate in this series, revoking their admission would be rather harsh, and something we dont wish to do. So, the self-appointed team leaders for each country will be contacted by PM in the next 24hrs, as well as the wannabe managers who are up for vote (majority vote wins, a 50/50 vote = 'yes', no reply to PM = 'no') . They will be asked if they wish to give up their invite, and take part in this qualification round, if they agree, then 1 invite and their name are entered into this qual event. Likewise if they decline, then they dont.
We need at least 4 invites to make this worthwhile, if we get that, then we will nominate countries which we feel have the signups able to compete in the full series, and they will take part in this qualification. If we dont get 4 invites 'donated', then we're going to be mean and throw everyone into the pot, all 11 countries will take part in the qualification round, and remaining 5 places will be taken by countries we nominate to take part.
Its harsh, and hopefully we wont feel the need to do this by force, however this solution gets everything over and done with on 1 night, it gives each country a chance to prove their place.
Standard series points will be awarded to racers, then at the end the points totalled and the available invites to the series will be given out to those with highest points total. The end result would still see 11 European countries taking part, alongside the 5 non-European teams.
The deadline for replies from Team Managers (and TM's to be) to state their preference will be 00UTC Feb 23rd (2hrs short of 7 days time). If managers wish to discuss this amongst teammates, please do so asap to avoid missing the deadline.
LFSWS Team
1 European only qualification round
3 races, 1 night, same start time. March 1st @ 19UTC (this round only!)
2 drivers per country, per race.
20min Qual, 40min (approx) race.
This qualification round will consist of the following combo's:
(LFSWS Rnd 1) UF1 @ Aston Cadet (35 laps)
(LFSWS Rnd 5) FXR @ Aston Historic (20 laps)
(LFSWS Rnd 8) FO8 @ Westhill International (30 laps)
Heres the tricky bit...
Because we've already agreed to allow 11 countries to participate in this series, revoking their admission would be rather harsh, and something we dont wish to do. So, the self-appointed team leaders for each country will be contacted by PM in the next 24hrs, as well as the wannabe managers who are up for vote (majority vote wins, a 50/50 vote = 'yes', no reply to PM = 'no') . They will be asked if they wish to give up their invite, and take part in this qualification round, if they agree, then 1 invite and their name are entered into this qual event. Likewise if they decline, then they dont.
We need at least 4 invites to make this worthwhile, if we get that, then we will nominate countries which we feel have the signups able to compete in the full series, and they will take part in this qualification. If we dont get 4 invites 'donated', then we're going to be mean and throw everyone into the pot, all 11 countries will take part in the qualification round, and remaining 5 places will be taken by countries we nominate to take part.
Its harsh, and hopefully we wont feel the need to do this by force, however this solution gets everything over and done with on 1 night, it gives each country a chance to prove their place.
Standard series points will be awarded to racers, then at the end the points totalled and the available invites to the series will be given out to those with highest points total. The end result would still see 11 European countries taking part, alongside the 5 non-European teams.
The deadline for replies from Team Managers (and TM's to be) to state their preference will be 00UTC Feb 23rd (2hrs short of 7 days time). If managers wish to discuss this amongst teammates, please do so asap to avoid missing the deadline.
LFSWS Team
Last edited by PaulC2K, .
Anyone that hasnt already seen, we're moving things to the official forum for the series now.
http://www.lfshosting.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=85
A few of you are already signed up on there, so ive already assigned you into the Great Britain usergroup, which allows you to see (and post etc) in the Great Britain sub-forum over there.
Those of you who dont already have an account, register yourself and then either follow the instructions in the 'Driver signup' thread, or just follow the instructions near the end of the post, explaining how you can make your team leaders life a little easier (you just submit yourself for approval into the GB group, that way i just approve everyone rather than having to manually add each username).
Already registered on LFSHosting forum (and in the GB usergroup):
Psymonhilly
gentlefoot
StableX
looney
Bean0
If ive missed anyone thats already registered on there but isnt in the group, either PM me or leave a post on the LFSH forum.
The manager vote has already started (technically started 2 days ago, but doesnt finished for another 7 days time) so make sure you get your vote in.
http://www.lfshosting.net/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=85
A few of you are already signed up on there, so ive already assigned you into the Great Britain usergroup, which allows you to see (and post etc) in the Great Britain sub-forum over there.
Those of you who dont already have an account, register yourself and then either follow the instructions in the 'Driver signup' thread, or just follow the instructions near the end of the post, explaining how you can make your team leaders life a little easier (you just submit yourself for approval into the GB group, that way i just approve everyone rather than having to manually add each username).
Already registered on LFSHosting forum (and in the GB usergroup):
Psymonhilly
gentlefoot
StableX
looney
Bean0
If ive missed anyone thats already registered on there but isnt in the group, either PM me or leave a post on the LFSH forum.
The manager vote has already started (technically started 2 days ago, but doesnt finished for another 7 days time) so make sure you get your vote in.
By not reading the discussions for the last few weeks or last couple of days, maybe your not best qualified to say whats right or whats wrong??
The information your asking for, has been mentioned half a dozen times in the last 48hrs, and the assumptions and statements arent accurate either.
The teams were picked based on 3 things, signups, strength of line-up, and their location. We needed all 3 aspects in this competition from the offset, to determine whether the series had any long-term prospects, if there were clear issues then it makes no difference whether whateverland arent competing, so the relevence of their participation isnt of high priority, what is, is ensuring the format will work for in order for there to be any future success.
This isnt a 3rd generation series, its the first, and people need to accept this, wanting it to be the ultimate experience, perfectly answering this 'whos the fastest' question at the first time of asking etc etc. LFS-NC didnt get close to answering it, they tried first attempt and got things wrong, iirc teams in the qualification rounds and half the finalists (3 of the 6) didnt even bother showing up for their rounds, so something wasnt right there. So in terms of past experience, what is there? Nations cup.... we'll say no past experience then ey.
Also, its been said some time ago, that the first season wouldnt be a true/full example of what the series is aiming for, but a smaller version which can be extended upon in future seasons. The series organisers wanted something managable, small group of countries where any problems can be dealt with in a much easier manner, get some experience behind the the project and then use that to promote future series where we'll actively try and get as many countries involved and hopefully ensure additional communities know of its existance. The entrants, such as yourself, want Formula 1/A1GP/World Cup all rolled into 1, every single country taking part, with every driver getting a race, and all in a lag-free server. Apparently our opinions on how to start up a series arent allowed, instead were being told to follow in the footsteps of Nations Cup... brilliant.
Dont mind my cynicism, ey.
Eitherway, if you want to comment on objectivity, what we aim to do, and how were not fullfilling that, at least check what your commenting on first, dont assume because you havent looked, thats not really objective, dont you think?
The information your asking for, has been mentioned half a dozen times in the last 48hrs, and the assumptions and statements arent accurate either.
The teams were picked based on 3 things, signups, strength of line-up, and their location. We needed all 3 aspects in this competition from the offset, to determine whether the series had any long-term prospects, if there were clear issues then it makes no difference whether whateverland arent competing, so the relevence of their participation isnt of high priority, what is, is ensuring the format will work for in order for there to be any future success.
This isnt a 3rd generation series, its the first, and people need to accept this, wanting it to be the ultimate experience, perfectly answering this 'whos the fastest' question at the first time of asking etc etc. LFS-NC didnt get close to answering it, they tried first attempt and got things wrong, iirc teams in the qualification rounds and half the finalists (3 of the 6) didnt even bother showing up for their rounds, so something wasnt right there. So in terms of past experience, what is there? Nations cup.... we'll say no past experience then ey.
Also, its been said some time ago, that the first season wouldnt be a true/full example of what the series is aiming for, but a smaller version which can be extended upon in future seasons. The series organisers wanted something managable, small group of countries where any problems can be dealt with in a much easier manner, get some experience behind the the project and then use that to promote future series where we'll actively try and get as many countries involved and hopefully ensure additional communities know of its existance. The entrants, such as yourself, want Formula 1/A1GP/World Cup all rolled into 1, every single country taking part, with every driver getting a race, and all in a lag-free server. Apparently our opinions on how to start up a series arent allowed, instead were being told to follow in the footsteps of Nations Cup... brilliant.
Dont mind my cynicism, ey.
Eitherway, if you want to comment on objectivity, what we aim to do, and how were not fullfilling that, at least check what your commenting on first, dont assume because you havent looked, thats not really objective, dont you think?
added comments to above post, cba with quotes anymore, getting lazier with my last 2 replies
Yes, That was completely on topic, and wow, your so right, it was very constructive, offered amazing support to the organisation. Its true, we were very scared of what you had to say, this Austrian does seem to know what he's talking about... yawn.
Why oh why did we chose to delete your post considering ALL it had to offer!?
Yet more unconstructive moaning from you, you'll noticed that the post hasnt been edited for almost 48hrs, and that clearly gives you the explanation of why those countries have been picked, and despite those reasons being very clear and being factually accurate to the teams selected, yet again your rant is pointless.
Promise? Who said anything about promising? The announcement 2 weeks ago made it very clear, you knew that then, and its still true today, stop whining! If only 1 person signed up, does that mean they're GUARANTEED to be in the series because apparently its a 'promise'? Of course not, so quit playing with words.
1) You've yet to suggest a suitable way in which those 40-50+ people could take part, you've only whined.
2) We need to TEST the connections and be sure they're fine for 16 different countries from around the world, it should be fine, but its not that often you'd have 32 people from 16 countries spread widely around the world, normally its within 1 continent and the odd one from outside there.
3) You were ranting on about packet loss between Austria and Germany making racing unpredictable, so who's talking rubbish there?
What you say ignores any of the rules that are in place making 75% of the tripe you just posted irrelevent.
Yes, what you say COULD be good for the series, spend 2 minutes checking some of the rules or at least ASK for them, and maybe what you say would mean something instead of ranting about something you havent even got your facts straight on. If you want to be helpful, at least get your facts straight, dont assume and tell us were doing it all wrong.
Yes, what you say COULD be good for the series, spend 2 minutes checking some of the rules or at least ASK for them, and maybe what you say would mean something instead of ranting about something you havent even got your facts straight on. If you want to be helpful, at least get your facts straight, dont assume and tell us were doing it all wrong.
Tweak, shut up and spend more than 2 seconds looking into the series, THEN comment!
Dont make assumptions, dont guess, dont whine about something if you dont even know anything but what little you've bothered to read, dont tell us we havent considered X, Y & Z just because you dont know we have (or bothered to read the announcements!)
If you cant find answers to questions you have, ask us, dont just go making assumptions because you dont know the answers and/or cant be arsed looking for them!
I've said it once before, if people want to moan or cant be bothered saying something constructive for the good of the series, then their posts will be deleted and the thread may end up getting locked and/or deleted, the same goes for people commenting on things they cant even be arsed to check their facts on!
Dont make assumptions, dont guess, dont whine about something if you dont even know anything but what little you've bothered to read, dont tell us we havent considered X, Y & Z just because you dont know we have (or bothered to read the announcements!)
If you cant find answers to questions you have, ask us, dont just go making assumptions because you dont know the answers and/or cant be arsed looking for them!
I've said it once before, if people want to moan or cant be bothered saying something constructive for the good of the series, then their posts will be deleted and the thread may end up getting locked and/or deleted, the same goes for people commenting on things they cant even be arsed to check their facts on!
That idea has a CONSIDERABLY higher likelyhood of being used than just 1 driver per country, i was thinking about it last night, because it would create 2 full servers with 20 teams, maybe 21 depending how it was split, but it does become slightly more messy at this point as you go back to having multiple servers for the race and qualifying, rather than everyone being on the track together and racing for the same set of places/points.
It also means one server could be full of EU drivers one week, the next it could be 50/50 EU/non-EU and could be problematic with packet loss/latency where at least cramming everyone into 1 server helped confirm if this could ever create a problem for the people taking part.
True, although Brazils signup numbers arent a problem, and Spain (amongst others) signed their country up to take part (twice, both from the same community) and yet never came back to sign themself up and i'd guess didnt bother informing their community either.
Thats just the deadline we were using for assessing each countries lineup, we were just giving advanced notice that a decision would be made then (on those results at least) to try and encourage a few more people to sign up to help their countries chances of being invited.
Each country still involved can continue recruiting drivers to take part, theres definately not a complete sign-up deadline, at least till towards the end of the season.
Each country still involved can continue recruiting drivers to take part, theres definately not a complete sign-up deadline, at least till towards the end of the season.
If we wanted the easy option and put little thought into our decisions, we'd have stuck everyone in there, watched half the teams leave or not show up, and called it Nations Cup #2, because thats what happened with that series, people said one thing, did another. The issue with Australia and a couple of the N/S American teams isnt ideal, but they are important to the running of the series, and because we still have plenty of time until the first race starts they can still look for additional drivers to add to the lineup. Before the signup had begun, it was fairly obvious there were 4 non-EU countries which would be needed, we wanted 5/6 or more non-EU teams, and depending on European signups the rest of the series setup would be decided, whether its 16 or 28-32 split over 2 servers.
We've had about 18 countries which had double figures for signups, plus the 3 non-EU countries, still falls well short. If you count all the counties with at least 1 signup, thats 26 in total.
There simply isnt enough teams to run 2 servers, yet we were 5 over fitting into 16 teams. There were already more than enough EU teams, so we picked those we felt were the strongest, and kept the 3 non-EU countries. Keeping everything in 1 server is far easier to manage too, and despite the fact that it meant we'd have to axe teams which could have taken part, there wasnt enough room for the only reasonable method we could use.
Running qualifying rounds wouldnt solve matters, it might have shut a few moaners up because they couldnt complain if they'd been kicked out, but it couldnt be ensured it'd be fair and accurate just as us axing those teams we felt were weaker can ensure it. The difference is, we dont have to organise preliminary rounds, allow time to practice, run them 3 weekends back to back disregarding any other events on those dates, and then further delayed the start of the series proper once those successful teams have been decided.
FACT: We never once suggested there would be more teams than have been selected, never gave any guarantees that signing up meant you'd be involved, or made any other similar assurances.
The deadline for the selected countries is closed, however sign-ups are NOT closed, and wont be until the penultimate round of the series is over, so whether a team such as Australia have 1 or 100 people signed up, they have at least 6 weeks to find enough drivers for round 1 and almost 6 months till round 7, however their involvement FAR outweighs that of yet another European country, were fully aware that a 32 slot server can hold 32 Europeans, however we need to spread the load over a far wider area, and doing that with 14 EU teams and 2 'others' isnt going to cut it, and insisting that non-EU countries should be dropped for more EU teams makes absolutely no sense at this stage in the series lifespan. A World Series with only European teams makes no sense, and could ultimately create problems in later series if their involvement makes things unstable. We're confident it wont, but it may require swapping and changing server hosting location till we find something that works for everyone, doing this with 20-30 countries mid-series would be considerably worse for the series than having to select the best 10 EU teams, and 6 non-EU teams, and pass on those not selected.
"Yes, I can read, thank you."
Really? We've stated perfectly clear the reasons we've selected those countries: signups, team strength, geographical diversity. Its there in black and white (light blue), what more do you want?? You've been given the reasons, and your insults wont change those, and certainly wont help the chances of any sensible suggestions being listerned to if yourself and others continue whining we'll just close the thread down and leave it there. If you geniunely have worthwhile suggestions, make them, otherwise complaining isnt going to change anything.
If anyone has questions then they can be asked, if you have a helpful suggestions then we'll listern to them, but if people just want to complain and not respect our decisions, then there posts will be considered unhelpful and intentionally disrumptive, and their posts will be removed and the thread possibly locked.
The reasons for these actions have been given, as they have been throughout the build-up to the season, we've never said one thing and done exactly the opposite, but if we did, there would be geniune reason for it, not for funsies.
Tweak:
No, certainly not, its still very much open for drivers to continue signing up for the countries invited to take part, the closing date for drivers signing up is effectively August (9th iirc), theres ~6 weeks for the first round, 20 something weeks till the last. The only deadline was for signups to come to a conclusion which countries we would go with, it was clear signups werent coming in that significantly which would change things in any helpful manner, so we felt it best to made a decision with reasonable notice, to consider what we'd do, and which countries would take part. Currently there isnt any signup deadline, and there probably wont be, although its possible we'll introduce a restriction saying you cant race for the first 7 days from signup (competitively in LFSWS), this is just to ensure no last minute signups and people who've been practicing all week dont get 'chubbed' by someone jumping in at the last minute. Its not a confirmed rule, just something were discussing which we think is beneficial. It may not get implemented, as this is partly something the countries manager should be looking out for, if the involvement of new drivers annoys those who've been there a while practicing and arent getting a place because of 'queue jumpers' it could cause problems later down the line.
If it was purely numbers, then it'd have a very American style meaning to 'World Series', as for each non-European entry theres a European one that has more signups to take its place.
Whats the point of doing it if its just Europe? We need to judge whether its feasable to have 32 people on a server when they're guaranteed to be spread all over the world, its not like MoE or any other event where 95% of the people are from the same continent, The N/S American countries are included along with Australia despite lower signups because we need this data, so exceptions can be made at this stage.
I guess it'd be better to kick them out, have it as only EU teams, have a great first season and then next time round have 20+ Aussie and likewise for the America's, and then have the server completely unraceable and listern to people bitch about why things like this arent tested first? Your damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Whats the point of doing it if its just Europe? We need to judge whether its feasable to have 32 people on a server when they're guaranteed to be spread all over the world, its not like MoE or any other event where 95% of the people are from the same continent, The N/S American countries are included along with Australia despite lower signups because we need this data, so exceptions can be made at this stage.
I guess it'd be better to kick them out, have it as only EU teams, have a great first season and then next time round have 20+ Aussie and likewise for the America's, and then have the server completely unraceable and listern to people bitch about why things like this arent tested first? Your damned if you do, damned if you dont.
Servers arent an issue, if we need 8, I can provide all 8 myself, thats far from being a problem.
We've already been through reasons why we dont want to do qualifying rounds, if we were limiting the season to 16 teams because thats how we wanted to run the series, then its fair enough there needs to be a suitable way to come to a conclusion as to who the best 16 are, however that isnt the case here, we dont plan to limit the number of countries in the future, but for this first season we just want to start small with 16 teams who have enough drivers to ensure even when half of them arent able to compete, there are still plenty who can, they have reasonable experience and suitable driving ability, and we also include a mixture of countries from around the world to ensure we get results similar to how it would be in future seasons.
Running qual rounds would just further delay the start of the first season, and still wouldnt ensure the better/more suitable team went through. If the dates clashed with other events or top drivers were unable to race, then its hardly any fairer than being told by the organisers we feel there are others more suitable we've decided to go for this season only.
As for comparisons to the Nations Cup, that had problems for a number of reasons, and one of the reasons we're keeping things small to start with is because we dont want to fall into any of the traps that series did, IMO it tried to do too much too quickly and was too stop-start-stop-start from the initial idea of the series to the completion of the first and only season. You have to look at it from more than 1 perspective, and we're trying to look at it from whats in the best interest of the series in the long term and short term, as well as for the people taking part in the series in exactly the same way.
Do you initially please everyone and just bow to pressure of not wanting to upset people and if something becomes a glaringly obvious issue, say lag/server instability, you end up with 30+ countries worth of drivers complaining about everything they disagree on, or do you start small and build upon it, if problems arrise its kept to reasonable proportions instead of p*ssing of half the LFS community. We're actually trying to plan things out to ensure something this complicated can actually succeed, we know similar attempts havent been successful, and thats why were not diving head first into some overly ambitous project thinking it'll work perfectly first time.
Deciding that a team isnt qualified enough to remove one of the other teams isnt an matter of questionable organisation, its an matter of having differing opinions on who should race and who shouldnt, and it was our opinion that there were 16 other countries with a more suitable line-up of drivers signed up to take part in this season, if there werent, then you'd have been in there, its that simple. The reasons behind our decision making was made 10+ days ago, as well as being suggested in part much earlier, it isnt like we've decided based upon some secret reason, that its actually the 16 teams that bunged us $20 to let them in. If you cant respect our decision, then thats your call, but we've been straight with our what our aims are as soon as we've come to decisions, we feel these were made in the best interest of the series in the long run and despite the fact that some people wont like this in the short term, we're confident in these actions. Its one season, its not the end of the world.
If we could please everyone without compromising the series in the long term, we'd be more than happy to do this, we certainly dont want to start alienate the very people we hope will be taking part in future seasons, but we felt that having a few people unhappy because of this was better than ignoring what history has shown us isnt an easy thing to acheive, and focus on the making of a successful series and hope people forgive these decisions, rather than starting something we cant easily manage and it flops just as it has in the past.
Taking an unsuccessful series with people who've already experienced the series problems first hand and convincing them that things have changed is a damn sight harder than convincing people who were turned down due to limited numbers, that its worth taking part in a series which is working successfully.
We've already been through reasons why we dont want to do qualifying rounds, if we were limiting the season to 16 teams because thats how we wanted to run the series, then its fair enough there needs to be a suitable way to come to a conclusion as to who the best 16 are, however that isnt the case here, we dont plan to limit the number of countries in the future, but for this first season we just want to start small with 16 teams who have enough drivers to ensure even when half of them arent able to compete, there are still plenty who can, they have reasonable experience and suitable driving ability, and we also include a mixture of countries from around the world to ensure we get results similar to how it would be in future seasons.
Running qual rounds would just further delay the start of the first season, and still wouldnt ensure the better/more suitable team went through. If the dates clashed with other events or top drivers were unable to race, then its hardly any fairer than being told by the organisers we feel there are others more suitable we've decided to go for this season only.
As for comparisons to the Nations Cup, that had problems for a number of reasons, and one of the reasons we're keeping things small to start with is because we dont want to fall into any of the traps that series did, IMO it tried to do too much too quickly and was too stop-start-stop-start from the initial idea of the series to the completion of the first and only season. You have to look at it from more than 1 perspective, and we're trying to look at it from whats in the best interest of the series in the long term and short term, as well as for the people taking part in the series in exactly the same way.
Do you initially please everyone and just bow to pressure of not wanting to upset people and if something becomes a glaringly obvious issue, say lag/server instability, you end up with 30+ countries worth of drivers complaining about everything they disagree on, or do you start small and build upon it, if problems arrise its kept to reasonable proportions instead of p*ssing of half the LFS community. We're actually trying to plan things out to ensure something this complicated can actually succeed, we know similar attempts havent been successful, and thats why were not diving head first into some overly ambitous project thinking it'll work perfectly first time.
Deciding that a team isnt qualified enough to remove one of the other teams isnt an matter of questionable organisation, its an matter of having differing opinions on who should race and who shouldnt, and it was our opinion that there were 16 other countries with a more suitable line-up of drivers signed up to take part in this season, if there werent, then you'd have been in there, its that simple. The reasons behind our decision making was made 10+ days ago, as well as being suggested in part much earlier, it isnt like we've decided based upon some secret reason, that its actually the 16 teams that bunged us $20 to let them in. If you cant respect our decision, then thats your call, but we've been straight with our what our aims are as soon as we've come to decisions, we feel these were made in the best interest of the series in the long run and despite the fact that some people wont like this in the short term, we're confident in these actions. Its one season, its not the end of the world.
If we could please everyone without compromising the series in the long term, we'd be more than happy to do this, we certainly dont want to start alienate the very people we hope will be taking part in future seasons, but we felt that having a few people unhappy because of this was better than ignoring what history has shown us isnt an easy thing to acheive, and focus on the making of a successful series and hope people forgive these decisions, rather than starting something we cant easily manage and it flops just as it has in the past.
Taking an unsuccessful series with people who've already experienced the series problems first hand and convincing them that things have changed is a damn sight harder than convincing people who were turned down due to limited numbers, that its worth taking part in a series which is working successfully.
We're not going to start getting through specific details for reasons why one country isnt invited while another is, the reasons for the decisions have been explained quite clearly in the post above, there was a lot more thought put into the list of competing countries than just counting how many people said they were interested. Quantity played a part, it was the first requirement, but it wasnt the sole requirement, many factors were taken into consideration to try and get a balanced line-up. Had there have been a few more none-EU countries with a reasonable signup they'd have pushed 1 or 2 EU countries out.
Dont take it personally, our choice was to just start with a small selection of countries, and once we know everything runs smoothly then thats when the series will begin to acheive what its aims are, consider this almost a test run, the future seasons will be where it gets much more interesting because of all the competition involved, but its much easier to start small and work up, its already an extremely ambitious project and were not naive enough to think we can hit the road running and come up with a series that tries to answer the question of which is the fastest country competing in LFS, and get an true answer at the first time of asking. We need some experience to know whether our format will work, were confident the structure is good, but we just want to start reasonably small and build it up once we can see its working.
Dont take it personally, our choice was to just start with a small selection of countries, and once we know everything runs smoothly then thats when the series will begin to acheive what its aims are, consider this almost a test run, the future seasons will be where it gets much more interesting because of all the competition involved, but its much easier to start small and work up, its already an extremely ambitious project and were not naive enough to think we can hit the road running and come up with a series that tries to answer the question of which is the fastest country competing in LFS, and get an true answer at the first time of asking. We need some experience to know whether our format will work, were confident the structure is good, but we just want to start reasonably small and build it up once we can see its working.
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