Unless im very much mistaken (which is quite possible, the aim of this thread isnt really that clear nor are what the options actually intend) #2 is part endurance, part sprint race (thus reversed grid racing included).
For what its worth, 'sprint races' if there were 3 races in the 60-70min 'racing window' of the event would be 20min a peice.
IMO for sprint racing its stupid using predominantly long tracks tracks and fixed 10 laps, I'd have thought short/medium sided tracks so 15+ laps could be done (small tracks for slower cars, medium for mid-pace, leaving the 'epic' cars to the endurance racing on the big tracks with the long straights so you can utilise the full range of tracks available in LFS) would have given plenty of action, and considering the average race (IRL and virtual) seems to be decided after half a dozen laps we'd see more close racing than watching 20+ cars spread out over 60min.
For the record im not a huge fan of reversed grid, in the real world maybe, and with a grid you can trust without having doubts it could be very exciting, but it does appear to be very tricky to find the balance between true entertainment and 'circus standard entertainment'. The intention is to create closely fought scraps and drivers coming through the pack, the sad reality seems to be partial chaos with cars going off in all directions more often than not. I dont object to racing in them, theres the romantic hope of making perfect moves and coming through the pack to take the win, but typically things often fall short of that (FAR short of that if im at the wheel
) and its quite often frustraiting when you've had a decent race and the reverse race turns a little 'mickey mouse' under the name of entertaining racing instead of possibly another good clean race (maybe duller, but probably more people satisfied with the result)Each to his own though, single races was the basis of how the series was formed and that hasnt done it any harm has it
Yeah, thats kinda what i was suggesting a couple of days ago, similar setup to the V8 supercar series, where they dont stick to 1 fixed race meeting style but mix it up a little.
The V8 Series is largely made up of 3-race rounds, with a couple of 2-race rounds and a pair of 1-race rounds.
This is something I am considering speaking to the guys in our team about possibly organising, Saloon car racing with mixed style weekends, a series that doesnt have completely different cars each round but isnt the same fixed cars week in week out either. (ie TBO / XFR+UFR / GTR)
I definately agree with the idea of keeping everything planned round a 90min window, personally i dont mind how long it goes on for but plenty do.
Keep qualifying to something reasonable, it shouldnt be 1/3 of the whole event. 20min sounds fine.
DEFINATELY no 'X laps' plastered onto all rounds, if a lap takes X seconds then figure out how many laps you'd do in however long races should be and take it to the nearest 5th lap. I can understand fixed minute races (converted to laps for the races) but not a fixed number of laps like last season's 50 laps, we had round 1 lasting about 45min and then round 6? (GTRs) which was just over 2hrs and its too hard to find enough suitable combos for the rule without ruling out the longer tracks at Aston, Kyoto and Fern Bay.
Any reversed grid racing needs to have either a good enough reason to push for the best finishes possible in previous races to avoid the possibility of people intentionally driving to start on pole for the next race, whether its less points or only reversing the first X finishers. The idea of reversed grids is to spice things up a bit, it shouldnt be there for people to decide they're not going to get the result they thought they could get and have a better chance if they start on pole/at the front for the next race. It should improve the slower drivers chances of finishing better, but not significantly IMO, just give them a head start and not be something people decide to abuse because they'll score better by doing it.
Dont agree on sprint race rounds being worth less than endurance rounds, they take the same length of time to practice for, same time and effort to acheive, and should have same points for doing so.
If single sprint races each placing is spread by say 10pts then endurance should be 30 (if theres 3 sprints), meaning that winning is worth 30pts more than coming 2nd, thats the real difference, not the amount of points you get, but the amount you get more/less than others. IMO every round is worth the same, it keeps the value of things equal.
The V8 Series is largely made up of 3-race rounds, with a couple of 2-race rounds and a pair of 1-race rounds.
This is something I am considering speaking to the guys in our team about possibly organising, Saloon car racing with mixed style weekends, a series that doesnt have completely different cars each round but isnt the same fixed cars week in week out either. (ie TBO / XFR+UFR / GTR)
I definately agree with the idea of keeping everything planned round a 90min window, personally i dont mind how long it goes on for but plenty do.
Keep qualifying to something reasonable, it shouldnt be 1/3 of the whole event. 20min sounds fine.
DEFINATELY no 'X laps' plastered onto all rounds, if a lap takes X seconds then figure out how many laps you'd do in however long races should be and take it to the nearest 5th lap. I can understand fixed minute races (converted to laps for the races) but not a fixed number of laps like last season's 50 laps, we had round 1 lasting about 45min and then round 6? (GTRs) which was just over 2hrs and its too hard to find enough suitable combos for the rule without ruling out the longer tracks at Aston, Kyoto and Fern Bay.
Any reversed grid racing needs to have either a good enough reason to push for the best finishes possible in previous races to avoid the possibility of people intentionally driving to start on pole for the next race, whether its less points or only reversing the first X finishers. The idea of reversed grids is to spice things up a bit, it shouldnt be there for people to decide they're not going to get the result they thought they could get and have a better chance if they start on pole/at the front for the next race. It should improve the slower drivers chances of finishing better, but not significantly IMO, just give them a head start and not be something people decide to abuse because they'll score better by doing it.
Dont agree on sprint race rounds being worth less than endurance rounds, they take the same length of time to practice for, same time and effort to acheive, and should have same points for doing so.
If single sprint races each placing is spread by say 10pts then endurance should be 30 (if theres 3 sprints), meaning that winning is worth 30pts more than coming 2nd, thats the real difference, not the amount of points you get, but the amount you get more/less than others. IMO every round is worth the same, it keeps the value of things equal.
Dru:
Viper cannot make the race but he's managed to recruite Biohazard in, and Domin8r will also be driving as originally planned.
So its clear who's driving for which (V) car, i'll keep things as the team names have them, Dom will be in Mercury Old Farts with me and BabyBio will be in Mercury Young Un's with Pecker.
Future rounds im not sure who (if anyone) will be replacing Rooble's old seat, so i'll come back to that before the next round.
Viper cannot make the race but he's managed to recruite Biohazard in, and Domin8r will also be driving as originally planned.
So its clear who's driving for which (V) car, i'll keep things as the team names have them, Dom will be in Mercury Old Farts with me and BabyBio will be in Mercury Young Un's with Pecker.
Future rounds im not sure who (if anyone) will be replacing Rooble's old seat, so i'll come back to that before the next round.
i've been due one for the last year or 2, finally a worthwhile point 
Approach #1 - Failure
Time to put #2 in action....
Arrow, multiple races allows anyone who left their AV software on to wreck their races the chance to at least make up for it in the other races
I would have thought in the interest of keeping things entertaining and fun to be in the shorter races would have been more suited, with 1 race the emphasis is on qualifying and the first say 4-10 laps and after that very little happens because everyone is spread out and going at their usual pace. If it wasnt for pit-stops last season there probably wouldnt have been more than 2-3 changes out on track per round after the opening few laps.
The clear winner of a V8 3 race round is whoever comes away with the most points from the 3 races. The clear winner of F1 is typically whoever is on pole (or whoever is leading by about turn 3). I know which is the more fun to watch, and i say that having watched F1 religiously since the age of 10, including the good old days when Eurosports used to show the practice sessions on Friday & Saturday mornings (or Thurs/Sat for Monaco), its the pinicle of motorsports, but boy is it dull as hell after a few laps when rain doesnt come along and make things interesting!!
Thats just my opinion though.
Time to put #2 in action....
Arrow, multiple races allows anyone who left their AV software on to wreck their races the chance to at least make up for it in the other races
I would have thought in the interest of keeping things entertaining and fun to be in the shorter races would have been more suited, with 1 race the emphasis is on qualifying and the first say 4-10 laps and after that very little happens because everyone is spread out and going at their usual pace. If it wasnt for pit-stops last season there probably wouldnt have been more than 2-3 changes out on track per round after the opening few laps.
The clear winner of a V8 3 race round is whoever comes away with the most points from the 3 races. The clear winner of F1 is typically whoever is on pole (or whoever is leading by about turn 3). I know which is the more fun to watch, and i say that having watched F1 religiously since the age of 10, including the good old days when Eurosports used to show the practice sessions on Friday & Saturday mornings (or Thurs/Sat for Monaco), its the pinicle of motorsports, but boy is it dull as hell after a few laps when rain doesnt come along and make things interesting!!
Thats just my opinion though.
20 UTC (21 wouldnt be a problem i guess)
Prefer the idea of multiple short races than 1 long one, stuff the mandatory pit stops and OTT qualifying sessions, surely everyone can put in 1 decent lap in 15min, those that cant do that will have more action coming through the field.
BTW, im pretty sure that BTCC rules is
R1 = Qual order
R2 = R1 finishing order
R3 = Reversed first 6-10 drivers (depending on where the wheel lands, as spun by R2's winner, if it lands on 7 then the 1st 7 cars are reversed, 8-10 stay as they are, meaning you cant 'plan' where you start for R3)
A lot of races tend to just get stretched out as time goes by, just like F1 and most races, strategies rarely come into play and very little seems to change as races pass. 2-3 shortish (3x 20min w/ 2-3min break) races means more action and fun for those on the track, it also allows more points to be picked up, if something goes wrong your time practicing for the event isnt quite ruined, and i dont think people would make rash decisions because there is 3 chances either.
Infact, suprised it hasnt been mentioned seeing as its an (mostly) Aussie ran series, but the V8 series could be worth copying, with their Bathurst and Sandown single round races, the odd 2 race round and a majority of 3 round races.
Always the same number of points up for grabs each weekend (V8 uses 360? 3x120/2x180/1x360) meaning no single round/venue is more important than the other.
I think that would work perfectly, the smaller tracks (AS2) used for the 3 race rounds, medium for the 2 race rounds (FE2, SO5) and loooong tracks for 1 race rounds (AS6, SO4).
Mix things up a little
Prefer the idea of multiple short races than 1 long one, stuff the mandatory pit stops and OTT qualifying sessions, surely everyone can put in 1 decent lap in 15min, those that cant do that will have more action coming through the field.
BTW, im pretty sure that BTCC rules is
R1 = Qual order
R2 = R1 finishing order
R3 = Reversed first 6-10 drivers (depending on where the wheel lands, as spun by R2's winner, if it lands on 7 then the 1st 7 cars are reversed, 8-10 stay as they are, meaning you cant 'plan' where you start for R3)
A lot of races tend to just get stretched out as time goes by, just like F1 and most races, strategies rarely come into play and very little seems to change as races pass. 2-3 shortish (3x 20min w/ 2-3min break) races means more action and fun for those on the track, it also allows more points to be picked up, if something goes wrong your time practicing for the event isnt quite ruined, and i dont think people would make rash decisions because there is 3 chances either.
Infact, suprised it hasnt been mentioned seeing as its an (mostly) Aussie ran series, but the V8 series could be worth copying, with their Bathurst and Sandown single round races, the odd 2 race round and a majority of 3 round races.
Always the same number of points up for grabs each weekend (V8 uses 360? 3x120/2x180/1x360) meaning no single round/venue is more important than the other.
I think that would work perfectly, the smaller tracks (AS2) used for the 3 race rounds, medium for the 2 race rounds (FE2, SO5) and loooong tracks for 1 race rounds (AS6, SO4).
Mix things up a little
okay cool, figured there wasnt really any need for it but with the comments last week suggesting one was already done i wasnt sure if some possible routes were just being blocked anyway.
Rooble replacement... possibly, Domin8r is going to be trying the UF1 for a bit, although Viper is saying he might not be able to make the race and he probably wont know till Thursday anyway so Dom will probably be a replacement for one of them. btw, Pecker claims he's gonna win the constructors series all by himself! we'll see about that!
Dru, this autox config hasnt been uploaded and i've yet to see it in the server either, is there any chance of someone uploading it and also putting it onto the server because 48hrs before the event and its still not available... doesnt seem quite right.
np, wasnt quite taken as you being nasty, just couldnt quite understand what it was that it was in reference to me saying/suggesting.
That particular comment was more about the predictability that you have when racing with people your confident around, you trust them to be responsible for their car as they do of you, but the further down the field you go the less predictable the actions of the driver. I think most people know the ideal line, but staying on it consistantly is the issue, its certainly mine in the faster cars and TBH even the UF1s without some practice and a successful rhythm built on that line. So the 'frustraiting' part was just about the fact that typically you have to be on your toes and much more aware of their actions than someone faster. You should always be carefull and observant but the likelyhood of something 'unexpected' happening is far greater with someone you cannot predict as easily.
Thats part of the reason for the chaos of the starts, they certainly add to a fun element and i'll admit coming through the field *successfully* is a huge buzz, but its also stressful when your braking way early because the guy infront brakes earlier or gets it sideways and you have to back right off because of it and possibly lose places cos of someone elses 'silly' actions.
It was intended as a frustraition because of the higher risk around those drivers than the ones your a more even match to, though everyone has a right to be where they are and hold onto that placing it is quite frustraiting knowing the car infront isnt anything like as quick as you and is lapping slower trying to hold a place they'd be lucky to hold more than a lap or 2, so they're effectively slowing themselves down and delaying the inevitable, and for me theirs a frustraition involved in it.
OT - Years back in a in-house team series, i'd finished 2nd and had st0rm behind me for the 2nd race (reversed order) who'd just won, i knew there was no way i could keep him behind me for 15 or so laps round FE Club (me XFG, him XRG) so off the start i let him through and focused on staying behind him and using him to get me past other drivers whenever possible.
I knew 2nd was a more realistic target and making sure i didnt waste time trying to hold him back and instead focus on passing everyone i beat first time round. Thats my logic to racing, there was a possibility i could have won, but the probability was extremely slim so i did what i felt would help me get the best result i could, which meant allowing a distraction to pass and put my focus on people i knew i could beat. Spent ages disagreeing with Viper about my reasoning for letting him go, but i know my limits and i drive to those. Maybe thats my issue with slower drivers trying to hold me back and hold that position, i have a different attitude (while still respecting other peoples) and combined with the unpredictability sometimes i creates a frustration for the situation.
Peckah (and for the record, he's not called pecker because of the 'cheer up' reason
) it was mostly Viper that started Mercury up, but involved a few of us in it more than others until a few things were established, Nick (slocus) being the other probably more-so than me for a couple of days or so at the beginning. Not that i really understand why were discussing this here Although I am proud of the fact that im the slowest Mercury driver, and know i wouldnt get in if it wasnt for the fact that they were stupid enough to let me into the old Memphis-Bleek team and i think they just wanted a (V) website and didnt have the heart to tell me to FO afterwards
Mikey: well thats kinda news to me i guess. We have a lot of drivers and they're involved in a lot of things, so i guess its only more likely that they're going to have something to say about things, good and bad.
I also agree'd with you on the feet thing, thats why i said it was the only reason i could kinda associate myself with, having a drink or toilet trips can be done beforehand really.
oh, as mentioned in last nights post i'd agree that i dont think the first 2 tracks we've had the sprint race on has helped trial this system.
Club is basically 3 corners, and they're not corners that encourage overtaking and make it easier to make a pass, so 15 laps or 30, its the same corners and you need help from the person you want to pass more often than not. Sprint 1 was that same, perhaps a little easier particularly if you were within drafting distance onto the motorway.
Aston cadet is a great track for UF1s to overtake, theres places to make safe dives down the inside and theres many more corners which makes passing easier to acheive. Green is the same, only it has more corners because its a bigger track rather than Cadet being a small track with no real straights. Town is the same (though it wont have the reversed grid).
Maybe SO Classic would have been a better option than the sprints, its not much better it has to be said, but there are better/safe opportunities to make a pass (although it is a bit dull). Love SO2 & SO3R, likewise FE Club (BL1, FE1 & SO3R are my fav combos), but they're tricky to pass on and the reversed aspect only makes it harder and less predictable.
Club is basically 3 corners, and they're not corners that encourage overtaking and make it easier to make a pass, so 15 laps or 30, its the same corners and you need help from the person you want to pass more often than not. Sprint 1 was that same, perhaps a little easier particularly if you were within drafting distance onto the motorway.
Aston cadet is a great track for UF1s to overtake, theres places to make safe dives down the inside and theres many more corners which makes passing easier to acheive. Green is the same, only it has more corners because its a bigger track rather than Cadet being a small track with no real straights. Town is the same (though it wont have the reversed grid).
Maybe SO Classic would have been a better option than the sprints, its not much better it has to be said, but there are better/safe opportunities to make a pass (although it is a bit dull). Love SO2 & SO3R, likewise FE Club (BL1, FE1 & SO3R are my fav combos), but they're tricky to pass on and the reversed aspect only makes it harder and less predictable.
Dru:
As i say, and yourself too, Rooble is a very clean driver. I dont beleive he'd decide to try and spin you halfway down the straight 4 laps into a 15 lap race, he didnt attempt to take you out later when trying to pass you i think you just reading a little more into it because of what led to that. Rooble actually started pulling to the left just before you did and made it perfectly clear he was going to the inside but you refused to let him and to me its not gentlemanly, not against rules or anything like that but its basically slamming a door in his face when he's making a move. But eitherway i dont for one second think he'd intentionally try and ram you out. Qsto who's got his own wacky style of 'driving' i can understand
Dru/Mikey:
For the love of all things sacred, i'll say it once more, NEXT SEASON WITH A 20+ GRID, thats when the current sprint reversal grid would be a complete nightmare. I've said this twice in this thread alone, along with the fact that im not suggesting things be changed midway through, so the number of cars on the track is irrelevent until patch X and Div 1 & 2 are combined.
If you say its already been discussed and your doing exactly what i've been saying then why are you arguing the case with me?? Why do we have to go through what the V8 series are doing and all this 'good drivers can pass anyone' soundbytes?
Mikey:
You really dont get my point about the practicing midway through do you?? I've explained it twice very clearly but its not sinking in.
Like it or lump it im spending my 5min of 'toilet, drink and feet resting break' practicing the next track, i want to do well, i want to make sure that im up to pace and that im in the rhythem for that track, if i get one corner wrong while racing and hit someone it can be the difference between a good race and many peoples races ruined. So thats MY reason for doing it.
What im asking for is for *everyone else* to be given this opportunity, however for some f*cked up reason its being perceved as if i want to gain something, if i wanted to gain from it i wouldnt tell you im doing it and i wouldnt ask for everyone to be granted 5min open track, either as well as the break or its 'take your pick'.
The Positive aspects:
Everyone gets a couple of minutes to get up to speed, find their lines and just drive. You have a more open track (which is how it is most of the time) rather than the tightly packed track we have when doing lag laps, and it allows any mistakes to be realised when its not in a live race enviroment.
The Negatives:
You spent 5min practicing, so its 5min out of your day!
Of course silly accidents will happen, its a race and sometimes no ammount of practicing will help, but where we have 15min of qual before the first race we have 2-3 tightly packed laps where IMO the majority arent really paying too much attention or take it too seriously.
Case in point - Kaw ramping the middle chicane rather than driving properly.
Sure if some dont want to do this then thats their choice and if they make a mistake which causes an accident they have no excuse if thats their attitude IMO. If we were racing on the same track reverse grid it wouldnt be a problem, but because its a new track, new lines and brake points (with and without others around you) i think it should be allowed for people just to have a few minutes to drive round freely. The lag lap is on the right lines, and IMO is a good idea for helping improve chances of a clean race for the proper start, but would it harm to allow people who wish to the chance to do a couple of laps.
I spotted the 'dont want to give some people an advantage' reason for not doing this in the 5min break, but come on, what happened to the 'this is a fun series', were talking about trying to ensure that EVERYONE has a good clean race, trying to remove as many of the silly mistakes as possible, not all because its impossible, but as many as can be. What negative reason is there for it? I've given dozens of positives and the only reason against is to give equal rights for those wanting a pee, drink or rest. If people need to rest their feet then maybe i can understand that, but surely 1hr into the round people dont need to take a leak or get a drink, why cant these things be done beforehand?? I cant comment on sore feet as i dont have that problem with my G25 (im a pussy, im using clutch pedal for brake) but that *to me* is possibly a valid reason, but the others are a little silly.
Mr_X:
1st season? really?? Thanks for pointing that out, had NO idea.
Havent spent pretty much every other day listening to Dru's ideas and solutions on how to make things work for that not to have sunk in you know. Plenty of things have been done to ensure that the series is a success, and it has been, but when (other) people are currently saying they've been screwed over in both sprint races and i've had it happen to me on the test race (with a much larger grid) then im going to try and highlight its problems if we do go to a fuller (20+) grid.
As for the wind, as i said in the thread we were discussing this, name me ONE series where the cars go onto the track with the lights about to go red/green and have no idea which way the wind is blowing. Your asking everyone to be on the same wavelength for when to brake for the first turn AND predict the direction the wind is blowing and how much of an effect that will be.
You'd do practice in one condition and in every likelyhood the race in something completely different. Thats more unrealistic than the possibility that there is no wind. If it was a server setting, wind = NW speed=10, then f*ck yeah bring it on. instead its wind = you'll find out the first time you see a flag, speed = i'll tell you on the grid.
Its a fun league, wheres the fun in 'he didnt brake in time', 'didnt think it was that windy' or 'the wind pushed me'. I didnt say they shouldnt have it, but i wanted to point out the problems of running with it. Of course it wasnt interpreted that way because thats too easy, its taken as 'i want dull lifeless hotlapping style racing' rather. If a bit of wind is whats needed to make this series fun then its failed before its even begun. Have it, dont have it, whatever, but im pointing out reasons against it so they're aware of them.
Leifde:
Of course it is, and because you bring that up without anything to reference what your refering to... your point being?
I spent 3 laps behind Dru, he was braking at places that dont need to be braked for, however i knew he was doing it (despite knowing he wasnt in practicing) and thats why we never made contact. In fact i think i made contact with 1 person in the whole race, and that was on lap 2 trying to pass dru and viper, any other contact was slight taps/rubs side by side (Dru: it wasnt bump-drafting, i was thinking i could use both drafts to go by both but hit viper at an angle, causing him to slightly nudge into you, but it was my intention to pass you not sit behind you.)
For the rest of that race, and i'd also go as far as saying the Feature race, in which we race closely for a few laps as me and mike did (3 passes in 2 laps) and there was no contact made. I know how to go about close racing, however right towards the end of the race 2 cars touch on T1 and could easily have collected me, which was what happened over and over in the test race. Racing is racing, i can race just fine, not always the fastest but can race and thats one reason I quite happy to do reversed grid, i can drive side by side and overtake people cleanly. I'd bet Kaw was the only person able to say they had a cleaner race.
mikey: The whole 'Mercury' based comments is what i object to, that mercury is always moaning is a generalisation on which is nonsense yet was aimed at us. Asside from myself who's been asked for an opinion on pretty much every aspect of this series, Pecker has said he didnt like the wind. Thats it, Viper hasnt said anything, Rooble hasnt said anything.
Yet MERCURY is always moaning. Its as fair as saying ZWR is always taking people out because you made 1 mistake.
As i say, and yourself too, Rooble is a very clean driver. I dont beleive he'd decide to try and spin you halfway down the straight 4 laps into a 15 lap race, he didnt attempt to take you out later when trying to pass you i think you just reading a little more into it because of what led to that. Rooble actually started pulling to the left just before you did and made it perfectly clear he was going to the inside but you refused to let him and to me its not gentlemanly, not against rules or anything like that but its basically slamming a door in his face when he's making a move. But eitherway i dont for one second think he'd intentionally try and ram you out. Qsto who's got his own wacky style of 'driving' i can understand
Dru/Mikey:
For the love of all things sacred, i'll say it once more, NEXT SEASON WITH A 20+ GRID, thats when the current sprint reversal grid would be a complete nightmare. I've said this twice in this thread alone, along with the fact that im not suggesting things be changed midway through, so the number of cars on the track is irrelevent until patch X and Div 1 & 2 are combined.
If you say its already been discussed and your doing exactly what i've been saying then why are you arguing the case with me?? Why do we have to go through what the V8 series are doing and all this 'good drivers can pass anyone' soundbytes?
Mikey:
You really dont get my point about the practicing midway through do you?? I've explained it twice very clearly but its not sinking in.
Like it or lump it im spending my 5min of 'toilet, drink and feet resting break' practicing the next track, i want to do well, i want to make sure that im up to pace and that im in the rhythem for that track, if i get one corner wrong while racing and hit someone it can be the difference between a good race and many peoples races ruined. So thats MY reason for doing it.
What im asking for is for *everyone else* to be given this opportunity, however for some f*cked up reason its being perceved as if i want to gain something, if i wanted to gain from it i wouldnt tell you im doing it and i wouldnt ask for everyone to be granted 5min open track, either as well as the break or its 'take your pick'.
The Positive aspects:
Everyone gets a couple of minutes to get up to speed, find their lines and just drive. You have a more open track (which is how it is most of the time) rather than the tightly packed track we have when doing lag laps, and it allows any mistakes to be realised when its not in a live race enviroment.
The Negatives:
You spent 5min practicing, so its 5min out of your day!
Of course silly accidents will happen, its a race and sometimes no ammount of practicing will help, but where we have 15min of qual before the first race we have 2-3 tightly packed laps where IMO the majority arent really paying too much attention or take it too seriously.
Case in point - Kaw ramping the middle chicane rather than driving properly.
Sure if some dont want to do this then thats their choice and if they make a mistake which causes an accident they have no excuse if thats their attitude IMO. If we were racing on the same track reverse grid it wouldnt be a problem, but because its a new track, new lines and brake points (with and without others around you) i think it should be allowed for people just to have a few minutes to drive round freely. The lag lap is on the right lines, and IMO is a good idea for helping improve chances of a clean race for the proper start, but would it harm to allow people who wish to the chance to do a couple of laps.
I spotted the 'dont want to give some people an advantage' reason for not doing this in the 5min break, but come on, what happened to the 'this is a fun series', were talking about trying to ensure that EVERYONE has a good clean race, trying to remove as many of the silly mistakes as possible, not all because its impossible, but as many as can be. What negative reason is there for it? I've given dozens of positives and the only reason against is to give equal rights for those wanting a pee, drink or rest. If people need to rest their feet then maybe i can understand that, but surely 1hr into the round people dont need to take a leak or get a drink, why cant these things be done beforehand?? I cant comment on sore feet as i dont have that problem with my G25 (im a pussy, im using clutch pedal for brake
) but that *to me* is possibly a valid reason, but the others are a little silly.Mr_X:
1st season? really?? Thanks for pointing that out, had NO idea.
Havent spent pretty much every other day listening to Dru's ideas and solutions on how to make things work for that not to have sunk in you know. Plenty of things have been done to ensure that the series is a success, and it has been, but when (other) people are currently saying they've been screwed over in both sprint races and i've had it happen to me on the test race (with a much larger grid) then im going to try and highlight its problems if we do go to a fuller (20+) grid.
As for the wind, as i said in the thread we were discussing this, name me ONE series where the cars go onto the track with the lights about to go red/green and have no idea which way the wind is blowing. Your asking everyone to be on the same wavelength for when to brake for the first turn AND predict the direction the wind is blowing and how much of an effect that will be.
You'd do practice in one condition and in every likelyhood the race in something completely different. Thats more unrealistic than the possibility that there is no wind. If it was a server setting, wind = NW speed=10, then f*ck yeah bring it on. instead its wind = you'll find out the first time you see a flag, speed = i'll tell you on the grid.
Its a fun league, wheres the fun in 'he didnt brake in time', 'didnt think it was that windy' or 'the wind pushed me'. I didnt say they shouldnt have it, but i wanted to point out the problems of running with it. Of course it wasnt interpreted that way because thats too easy, its taken as 'i want dull lifeless hotlapping style racing' rather. If a bit of wind is whats needed to make this series fun then its failed before its even begun. Have it, dont have it, whatever, but im pointing out reasons against it so they're aware of them.
Leifde:
Of course it is, and because you bring that up without anything to reference what your refering to... your point being?
I spent 3 laps behind Dru, he was braking at places that dont need to be braked for, however i knew he was doing it (despite knowing he wasnt in practicing) and thats why we never made contact. In fact i think i made contact with 1 person in the whole race, and that was on lap 2 trying to pass dru and viper, any other contact was slight taps/rubs side by side (Dru: it wasnt bump-drafting, i was thinking i could use both drafts to go by both but hit viper at an angle, causing him to slightly nudge into you, but it was my intention to pass you not sit behind you.)
For the rest of that race, and i'd also go as far as saying the Feature race, in which we race closely for a few laps as me and mike did (3 passes in 2 laps) and there was no contact made. I know how to go about close racing, however right towards the end of the race 2 cars touch on T1 and could easily have collected me, which was what happened over and over in the test race. Racing is racing, i can race just fine, not always the fastest but can race and thats one reason I quite happy to do reversed grid, i can drive side by side and overtake people cleanly. I'd bet Kaw was the only person able to say they had a cleaner race.
mikey: The whole 'Mercury' based comments is what i object to, that mercury is always moaning is a generalisation on which is nonsense yet was aimed at us. Asside from myself who's been asked for an opinion on pretty much every aspect of this series, Pecker has said he didnt like the wind. Thats it, Viper hasnt said anything, Rooble hasnt said anything.
Yet MERCURY is always moaning. Its as fair as saying ZWR is always taking people out because you made 1 mistake.
The reason its happening in Div1 more-so is because of the standard of driver in there. Its fairly evident that plenty of people were able to put in 1 lap, but throw them into a pack and it becomes something completely different. Hotlapping and Racing are 2 different things, ignoring bladey (+1.2sec) the pack of 13 cars were seperated by 1sec. Top 4 by 0.2s and top 8 by 0.4s so its not like theres slow drivers in there, but the reversed grid is a completely different kettle of fish. When those cars half a second slower (possibly done on just 1 Q lap) have faster cars behind them and are having to defend they become considerably slower, and that inturn creates more trouble. Thats why i think the WTCC method of a half-grid reversal makes more sense, flipping say the top 10 cars means they've got an easier ride but more chance of a proper scrap between drivers without 'slow-coaches' getting in the way. Do those at the very back of a grid really have a chance of finishing right up the table? If they're 1sec a lap slower you've got to wonder.
But thats my suggestion from a more entertaining racers POV, if it was purely selfish reasons i'd be saying stuff reversing anyone, i wanna stay where i finished. But if its a fun series then tip it on its head and everyone stock up on rabbits feet and 4 leaf clovers.
I've NEVER suggested something shouldnt be done or that a decision is wrong, but i know what can cause more trouble than its worth and if i can point it out then i'd take it upon myself to do so rather than keep it to myself and carry on regardless of its issues/problems and the reversed grid is one of the things i feel needs reassessing for the future as mentioned and overlooked in my initial post, it could be that the tracks chosen were the problem more than the whole concept, but even if you dont feel this is the right time to be discussing future changes i dont feel it warrants the fairly hypocritical soundbytes received from mikey after the last race or dru's mercury consipiracy theory.
From the 2 sprint races so far, finish and starting places from Mercury drivers:
1st, 3rd, 4th & 6th (from places 7, 10, 11, 9)
2nd, 3rd, 8th & DNF (from 10, 11, 13, 14)
We can come through the field, and if it was all the more predictable it'd be all the more enjoyable. I love a good scrap, had good ones with Mikey & McintyreJ where i'd dropped those places and had to find a way past slightly slower drivers to regain my place, but theres the definate feeling with reversed races that if you dont act soon you'll get left behind.
As ive said, if its a grid of Mikey type drivers you could reverse the qual and race 1 for all i care, i'd know im due decent race side by side through corners without any worries and 99% of the time silly moves or mistakes. Unfortunately we dont have that.
But thats my suggestion from a more entertaining racers POV, if it was purely selfish reasons i'd be saying stuff reversing anyone, i wanna stay where i finished. But if its a fun series then tip it on its head and everyone stock up on rabbits feet and 4 leaf clovers.
I've NEVER suggested something shouldnt be done or that a decision is wrong, but i know what can cause more trouble than its worth and if i can point it out then i'd take it upon myself to do so rather than keep it to myself and carry on regardless of its issues/problems and the reversed grid is one of the things i feel needs reassessing for the future as mentioned and overlooked in my initial post, it could be that the tracks chosen were the problem more than the whole concept, but even if you dont feel this is the right time to be discussing future changes i dont feel it warrants the fairly hypocritical soundbytes received from mikey after the last race or dru's mercury consipiracy theory.
From the 2 sprint races so far, finish and starting places from Mercury drivers:
1st, 3rd, 4th & 6th (from places 7, 10, 11, 9)
2nd, 3rd, 8th & DNF (from 10, 11, 13, 14)
We can come through the field, and if it was all the more predictable it'd be all the more enjoyable. I love a good scrap, had good ones with Mikey & McintyreJ where i'd dropped those places and had to find a way past slightly slower drivers to regain my place, but theres the definate feeling with reversed races that if you dont act soon you'll get left behind.
As ive said, if its a grid of Mikey type drivers you could reverse the qual and race 1 for all i care, i'd know im due decent race side by side through corners without any worries and 99% of the time silly moves or mistakes. Unfortunately we dont have that.
Dru:
Its truely amazing how one persons opinion of someone can be changed so quickly!
Either you havent watched that properly or your taking the p!ss! The fact that Rooble is trying to swap lanes seeing as you've already tried forcing him onto the grass on the existing side AFTER he's already moved there, and unfortunately misread things when trying to swap to the outside for the corner where there was plenty of room but you'd insisted on forcing him to the pitwall.
Watch from overhead, 0.125 speed, watch as just after he's edged past the part where you gave him no room, he starts to pull more of the car alongside you and then backs off slightly till the point where you'd *almost* got daylight between you and tries to swap sides. If you still feel thats intentional and not you over-reacting to something petty that at most cost you 0.2 sec, then i'll accept his punishment for it, because i dont believe for one second that he'd intentionally take you out, and if you do then more fool you.
If someone was going to take you out they'd take more of the car than the couple of pixels there and they'd also make more of an effort to do so. Pecker had the same thing happen to him last week, crossing the line after passing one of the 'backmarker on the same lap' cars and they clipped and carried on, but Pecker didnt come on here claiming someone intentionally tried to take them out. The term 'accidents will happen' seems to be forgotten.
Alternatively i could ignore that and point you in the direction of lap 12, turn 1, the incident between ZWR Mikey and (V) Viper, where despite being nothing like nose to tail mikey made a stupid dive for the racing line.
The difference between the way they're handled is quite clear, Viper was quite happy to let it go, it wasnt intentional, bloody stupid but not on purpose. He lost a position because of it (mainly cos i took both there places, thanks Mikey!) and the incident could have wrecked both drivers involved and anyone following behind race because of a silly move. He didnt kick up a fuss and start telling you that your drivers need to sort themselves out, and use that as a reason why everything else commented upon is now invalid, he knew it was a racing incident and grew the balls to accept sometimes sh*t happens.
Now, I managed to listen to Mikey comment on how people shouldnt make rash moves in the sprint race shortly after having made such a move to a teammate, i was able to be sensible about it and not be petty about it and bring something that has nothing to do with the discussion into the matter just to score points.
Personally i think thats quite a low blow, particular paired with all the assumptions made in there about 'Mercury' just because 1 of their members asked if we could remove the wind and the other of which YOU regularly quiz over MSN asking me my opinion on every aspect of the series imaginable, which then changes 24hrs later as you've changed your mind.
'afterall i don't hear NOBODY else complaining from the first two rounds apart from Mercury'
Complaints i know of:
Reversed sprint races - Mcintyre has brought up the issue of the driving in the sprint races twice on the forum, at least once in the server. i've agreed that it doesnt provide good racing and pointed out how other series have used this concept.
McintyreJ complained about peoples driving and being shoved around in the sprint race, he had the same thing again, nothing malicous but he's a quick driver round there who's been punted about in the 2nd race after a clean 1st race.
Sitting in a server for 8+ min doing nothing - Other people have also asked if we can have the 2nd track opened when we've been in the server, not sure who was the first to suggest it, rather than giving an explanation why this simple task couldnt be done they were ignored (by Mikey & hotmail in the first round) and everyone sat waiting.
Apparently though because I was one of the people thats asked it means im the only person. For a fun series im not really sure why people who want to cant do a few laps, if it helps avoid just 1 accident, surely its better than making 90% of people sit there waiting.
Just checked round 1 race 1 replay, i was the first to ask, at least 3 people ask if we can change track, and its ignored. It wasnt missed, like someone stating something three times before i agree with them, just pretended it wasnt being asked. When it finally gets a reply in here its not a reason, its just a stupid retort from Mikey suggesting that apparently im looking to gain an advantage by everyone ELSE doing some laps cos im doing so offline eitherway, but thats Mikey logic, he throws a tantrum after i'd said im not fussed about wind if they really want it, and decides he doesnt want it anymore.
Inconsistant weather/Wind -
Pecker has mentioned he doesnt like Wind, i agreed with that, you guys felt it was realistic, i conceeded thats fair enough its your series, and instead instead take it off!
What/Who else? Thats me and Pecker tarred and feather as being percistant moaners because we've expressed an opposing opinion on something, typically in an attempt to be helpful and make you aware of problems.
2 of an 18 man team, 4 of which are taking part, so half the team has mentioned something in the last 6 weeks. Of the 2 people, one is contacted on a near daily basis to discuss just how things should be done.
So rounded up, its 1 person mentioning they dont like wind and another person that you constantly speak to about finding solutions and ideas for the series and is doing more than enough work for their team to be considered one of them!! Wow, what a bunch of c*nts we are, how you put up with us is beyond me.
If you dont want discussions about them, then dont contribute to the discussion, just say you'll take it on board for the next series but for now things will stay as they are because they're not a significant issue to warrent change midway through. Maybe open up a seperate thread for this sort of thing to be talked about somewhere suitable. It certainly makes more sense than throwing a load of excuses, pointing at incidents involving teammates to invalidate something irrelevent and then say your fed up of hearing discussions - the end.
Its truely amazing how one persons opinion of someone can be changed so quickly!
Either you havent watched that properly or your taking the p!ss! The fact that Rooble is trying to swap lanes seeing as you've already tried forcing him onto the grass on the existing side AFTER he's already moved there, and unfortunately misread things when trying to swap to the outside for the corner where there was plenty of room but you'd insisted on forcing him to the pitwall.
Watch from overhead, 0.125 speed, watch as just after he's edged past the part where you gave him no room, he starts to pull more of the car alongside you and then backs off slightly till the point where you'd *almost* got daylight between you and tries to swap sides. If you still feel thats intentional and not you over-reacting to something petty that at most cost you 0.2 sec, then i'll accept his punishment for it, because i dont believe for one second that he'd intentionally take you out, and if you do then more fool you.
If someone was going to take you out they'd take more of the car than the couple of pixels there and they'd also make more of an effort to do so. Pecker had the same thing happen to him last week, crossing the line after passing one of the 'backmarker on the same lap' cars and they clipped and carried on, but Pecker didnt come on here claiming someone intentionally tried to take them out. The term 'accidents will happen' seems to be forgotten.
Alternatively i could ignore that and point you in the direction of lap 12, turn 1, the incident between ZWR Mikey and (V) Viper, where despite being nothing like nose to tail mikey made a stupid dive for the racing line.
The difference between the way they're handled is quite clear, Viper was quite happy to let it go, it wasnt intentional, bloody stupid but not on purpose. He lost a position because of it (mainly cos i took both there places, thanks Mikey!) and the incident could have wrecked both drivers involved and anyone following behind race because of a silly move. He didnt kick up a fuss and start telling you that your drivers need to sort themselves out, and use that as a reason why everything else commented upon is now invalid, he knew it was a racing incident and grew the balls to accept sometimes sh*t happens.
Now, I managed to listen to Mikey comment on how people shouldnt make rash moves in the sprint race shortly after having made such a move to a teammate, i was able to be sensible about it and not be petty about it and bring something that has nothing to do with the discussion into the matter just to score points.
Personally i think thats quite a low blow, particular paired with all the assumptions made in there about 'Mercury' just because 1 of their members asked if we could remove the wind and the other of which YOU regularly quiz over MSN asking me my opinion on every aspect of the series imaginable, which then changes 24hrs later as you've changed your mind.
'afterall i don't hear NOBODY else complaining from the first two rounds apart from Mercury'
Complaints i know of:
Reversed sprint races - Mcintyre has brought up the issue of the driving in the sprint races twice on the forum, at least once in the server. i've agreed that it doesnt provide good racing and pointed out how other series have used this concept.
McintyreJ complained about peoples driving and being shoved around in the sprint race, he had the same thing again, nothing malicous but he's a quick driver round there who's been punted about in the 2nd race after a clean 1st race.
Sitting in a server for 8+ min doing nothing - Other people have also asked if we can have the 2nd track opened when we've been in the server, not sure who was the first to suggest it, rather than giving an explanation why this simple task couldnt be done they were ignored (by Mikey & hotmail in the first round) and everyone sat waiting.
Apparently though because I was one of the people thats asked it means im the only person. For a fun series im not really sure why people who want to cant do a few laps, if it helps avoid just 1 accident, surely its better than making 90% of people sit there waiting.
Just checked round 1 race 1 replay, i was the first to ask, at least 3 people ask if we can change track, and its ignored. It wasnt missed, like someone stating something three times before i agree with them, just pretended it wasnt being asked. When it finally gets a reply in here its not a reason, its just a stupid retort from Mikey suggesting that apparently im looking to gain an advantage by everyone ELSE doing some laps cos im doing so offline eitherway, but thats Mikey logic, he throws a tantrum after i'd said im not fussed about wind if they really want it, and decides he doesnt want it anymore.
Inconsistant weather/Wind -
Pecker has mentioned he doesnt like Wind, i agreed with that, you guys felt it was realistic, i conceeded thats fair enough its your series, and instead instead take it off!
What/Who else? Thats me and Pecker tarred and feather as being percistant moaners because we've expressed an opposing opinion on something, typically in an attempt to be helpful and make you aware of problems.
2 of an 18 man team, 4 of which are taking part, so half the team has mentioned something in the last 6 weeks. Of the 2 people, one is contacted on a near daily basis to discuss just how things should be done.
So rounded up, its 1 person mentioning they dont like wind and another person that you constantly speak to about finding solutions and ideas for the series and is doing more than enough work for their team to be considered one of them!! Wow, what a bunch of c*nts we are, how you put up with us is beyond me.
If you dont want discussions about them, then dont contribute to the discussion, just say you'll take it on board for the next series but for now things will stay as they are because they're not a significant issue to warrent change midway through. Maybe open up a seperate thread for this sort of thing to be talked about somewhere suitable. It certainly makes more sense than throwing a load of excuses, pointing at incidents involving teammates to invalidate something irrelevent and then say your fed up of hearing discussions - the end.
Wow Mikey, Nice!!
One minute i have Dru assuming that im having a go, and then after pointing out that isnt how i feel you chip in with that crap!
1) When we get a grid of V8 Supercar quality of drivers taking part then maybe full grid reversals would be practical.
2) 'A good driver can pass anyone'. We raced pretty tight for a few laps in race 1 when i had to come back through the field cos of a stray hay bail, we faught hard and im pretty sure there wasnt any contact through it all. Why? Because theres a mutural respect and you know the other person knows what they're doing (and because they didnt get there by reversed fu**ing grids!!) however when you turn the whole thing on its head your taking a field of varying ability and asking them to race and wonder why some people arent happy because the whole thing implodes in on itself.
3) Telling people to take it easy and saying its half points is all good and well, but you proved yourself in the heat of racing you do what racers do, you dont fanny about holding hands.
4) You'd rather have everyone twiddle theirr thumbs for 8+ minutes rather than try and ensure safe driving for the next race?? Fantastic!
5) 'Apparently'? Theres nothing apparent about it, I was the one who bl**dy posted on this forum pointing it out because its such a bizarre rule, there doesnt appear to be a reason for it. Many people have asked in the server can we move to the next track, and their request goes unanswered. So apparently what your saying is that its against series rules to open up a 2nd existance of LFS and do a few laps practice rather than sit there doing sweet FA for 8+ minutes?
6) 'Fast drivers hate reversed grids' so that makes it a good idea?
This is your series, and im not telling you how to run it, but i'll be damned if im not entitled to express my opinions on it! If i see something that i feel is just stupid then why am i not entitled to express that opinion? Is nobody allowed to highlight issues or make a comment, you dont bother moaning at McintyreJ for having the same opinion that the sprint races arent good *racing*, they may be fun for some people, but they're also spoiled for some too.
Of the 2 sprint races i havent come out of them badly, i dont think ive been on the receiving end of anything stupid yet however im seeing it left right and center all around me. At the front end of the grid you just drive and dont make a mistake, maybe thats boring to some though the concept of the fastest person winning, but im pretty sure im all set on the definition of racing. If you'd rather have this 'toss of the coin' style of racing then fair enough, I just find im finishing those races feeling frustraited, if they were 14 cars of Mikey ability then i wouldnt have any worries, i'd know i can race with them and i'd know where i'd stand, whats doable and what isnt. Instead its a real mixed bag and i dont enjoy that for organised racing, i can get that any half-full server online right now if i wanted that.
One minute i have Dru assuming that im having a go, and then after pointing out that isnt how i feel you chip in with that crap!
1) When we get a grid of V8 Supercar quality of drivers taking part then maybe full grid reversals would be practical.
2) 'A good driver can pass anyone'. We raced pretty tight for a few laps in race 1 when i had to come back through the field cos of a stray hay bail, we faught hard and im pretty sure there wasnt any contact through it all. Why? Because theres a mutural respect and you know the other person knows what they're doing (and because they didnt get there by reversed fu**ing grids!!) however when you turn the whole thing on its head your taking a field of varying ability and asking them to race and wonder why some people arent happy because the whole thing implodes in on itself.
3) Telling people to take it easy and saying its half points is all good and well, but you proved yourself in the heat of racing you do what racers do, you dont fanny about holding hands.
4) You'd rather have everyone twiddle theirr thumbs for 8+ minutes rather than try and ensure safe driving for the next race?? Fantastic!
5) 'Apparently'? Theres nothing apparent about it, I was the one who bl**dy posted on this forum pointing it out because its such a bizarre rule, there doesnt appear to be a reason for it. Many people have asked in the server can we move to the next track, and their request goes unanswered. So apparently what your saying is that its against series rules to open up a 2nd existance of LFS and do a few laps practice rather than sit there doing sweet FA for 8+ minutes?
6) 'Fast drivers hate reversed grids' so that makes it a good idea?
This is your series, and im not telling you how to run it, but i'll be damned if im not entitled to express my opinions on it! If i see something that i feel is just stupid then why am i not entitled to express that opinion? Is nobody allowed to highlight issues or make a comment, you dont bother moaning at McintyreJ for having the same opinion that the sprint races arent good *racing*, they may be fun for some people, but they're also spoiled for some too.
Of the 2 sprint races i havent come out of them badly, i dont think ive been on the receiving end of anything stupid yet however im seeing it left right and center all around me. At the front end of the grid you just drive and dont make a mistake, maybe thats boring to some though the concept of the fastest person winning, but im pretty sure im all set on the definition of racing. If you'd rather have this 'toss of the coin' style of racing then fair enough, I just find im finishing those races feeling frustraited, if they were 14 cars of Mikey ability then i wouldnt have any worries, i'd know i can race with them and i'd know where i'd stand, whats doable and what isnt. Instead its a real mixed bag and i dont enjoy that for organised racing, i can get that any half-full server online right now if i wanted that.
Actually your assumption is off base, im neither suggesting the format should be changed now (hence 'too little too late' comment) or that Kaw is doing anything intentional, but its not tight racing is madness. People are given 15min to qualify, 40min worth of racing, and then we move to another track and get 3 laps to familiarise ourselves. The problem comes when you've got slower drivers from the last round, havent put in decent practice and arent exactly predictable at the best of times doing crazy sh*t infront of you and you have to react to that responsibly as to not cause an incident with the people around you.
Im pretty sure if you asked the opinions of the people taking part there thoughts on the sprint race they'd have the same opinion, its all rather chaotic and the key eliment is luck ahead of skill/ability. The feature race both times has been enjoyable i've found, i lost 3 places due to a bail that went astray and found itself in the racing line of the first chicane and had to fight my way through fast cars to get some places back, that was tight racing and very enjoyable. The sprint races have been a frustration of being slowed down and having to avoid getting caught up in other peoples mess. It just seems a frustraiting way to end a good nights bit of racing.
You know i've already asked for so many changes to be made to the series so close to it starting, so im not sure why you assumed i ment it should be done mid-way through, im simply suggesting this might be worth looking into for next season particularly with your intention of having 24+ drivers on the track, as if things are a nightmare as they are right now double the cars on the track and just think what would happen then!
Take a look at the replays from the front-runners perspective and watch what they have to drive through, theres people on there you wonder if they know what your doing, if your not sure they know what they're doing how the hell do you race side by side with them? Having to watch for their 'racing lines' and brake points and stuff so you dont get blamed for causing an accident... its just damn frustrating.
The sprint race rewards luck not driver ability, i dont recall any other real life race series having something similar which rewards the 'slow' and punishes the 'fast' and im thinking i know a bloody good reason why thats the case!
As for Kaw, purely a handy example of someone thats benefitting from bad results in race 1 where they're fast and consistant enough to do well, but still the truely fast people cant get up there because of everything inbetween holding them back. If someone was capable of winning a race then they'd be up there in the first race, reversing things is basically saying 'your slow, you know it we know, so we'll stick you at the front, make it so all the faster people are trying to get past you cos... well, boy your slow, now while your driving your slow ass car round the track in your slow ass way you've got equally slow people around you and the faster people thinking they need to pass you quick or be passed themselves by those quicker still behind them. now we know your slow and not the best driver, so you deal with whats infront of you as well as keep your eye on whats going on behind and to the side of you, and we'll call that close racing and have some fun hokay?'
Close racing is what we have in the feature race, its people of the same pace and ability driving side by side with one another, reversing that is basically using the back end as obsticals, the track becomes an assualt course that feels like its supposed to have some sort of novelty value to it. Im sure at least half the grid in Div1 would rather race toe-to-toe with people cleanly than play russion roulette.
Pretty sure i responded to your complaint/'whine' about the sprint race from the last round. Its always going to be like that, trust me if you think its bad from your end try dealing with it when half the grid infront of you is like this, not just 3-4.
Too little too late, but i think we need a WTCC/BTCC style reverse grid, WTCC reverse only the first 8 drivers, everyone outside that stay in finishing order. BTCC spin a 'wheel of fortune' style board and that has a number between 6 and 10, whichever it lands on is the number of cars reversed. The winner of race 2 spins the wheel after that race.
now obviously spinning a wheel cant be done and other methods arent really sensible, but the concept of reversing some not all isnt a bad idea.
Reversing a grid of 20+ people in season 2 would just be chaos.
Flipping the top 8 or 10 would mean that the racing would be considerably cleaner, currently its just a case of whoever is the luckiest and manages to come through the chaos with the least amount of problems. Theres just not enough laps to come through the field without taking the odd sensible gamble and occasionally making moves you'd usually hold back on.
Maybe its been the tracks we've been to, neither help or encourage overtaking, at least Aston Cadet has a few places to make a move which arent lethal.
I know what you mean about people finishing near the bottom then disappearing in the sprint race, was just talking to Viper about this earlier. Using Kaw as a perfect example, he's scored a total of 64pts in the feature races and 67pts in the sprint races.
Round 1 - 6th & 2nd (40 + 32)
Round 2 - 10th & 1st (24 + 35)
in the 5 minute break is it not possible that we could move straight onto the 2nd track and allow those who want to the chance to do a few minutes practice, instead of having to sit there waiting on those with those with the bladder of a 90y/o for 10min bored out of our skulls?
If a server message is put up in the middle of the screen saying '5 min break' then everyone knows its still break time, can even change the message every min or whatever so people know.
Just seems stupid sitting in a chatroom waiting, dunno about everyone else but thanks to teammates i managed to get 3 laps round South City in another instance of LFS after i got fed up of sitting round waiting. I can put them on seperate monitors so I can keep an eye out too, but i dont see the harm in either sorting the order out then moving to the track for a 5min break or going straight to the other track for a 5min break then ending to sort the order out.
If a server message is put up in the middle of the screen saying '5 min break' then everyone knows its still break time, can even change the message every min or whatever so people know.
Just seems stupid sitting in a chatroom waiting, dunno about everyone else but thanks to teammates i managed to get 3 laps round South City in another instance of LFS after i got fed up of sitting round waiting. I can put them on seperate monitors so I can keep an eye out too, but i dont see the harm in either sorting the order out then moving to the track for a 5min break or going straight to the other track for a 5min break then ending to sort the order out.
I plan to moan, complain and practice
I dont like barriers when an existing line is commonplace, however provided the config which will be run is made available to all well in advance (ie 4-7 days before) i dont see as theres any reason to object unless there are geniune concerns about the placement of them rather than just a general moan about having to have them there.
Regarding the scoring of it all...
Kev, Dru and myself did some chatting on MSN a few days ago and i randomly took x2 & x0.5 as multipliers for going down or up a division, It was 1pt out for Anttt if he moved and 5.5pts out for Dru if you halved their total score to get one figure, and compared to the method Dru is using which is to use the finishing time to judge where they'd be.
If Anttt was moved to div1 (which IMO he should, he's clearly too fast and seems to want the dull easy win) then his D2 times would have put him 5th and 10th, giving him 58pts. His D2 score was 114, halved would be 57, so as a multiplier its pretty accurate there.
Dru would have been 1 place behind Anttt with 6th and 11th worth 50pts, and his D2 score was 97, halved is 44.5pts
So thats 2 method's we discussed as ways of making it fair, both give results that are pretty close to the alternative method, so i dont see as theres any problem with going with one or the other. I agree points are easier to get hold of in Div2 than Div1, but we've looked at 2 methods of removing any kind of bonus/boost acheived by swapping over,
For the record - I object to Dru moving over with 40pts, i think it should be 45-50. Mainly because thats what would have been have done for Moo if they moved divisions and also Anttt if he were to.
otherwise, no objection to you or anyone else switching over as you'd probably know anyway
Kev, Dru and myself did some chatting on MSN a few days ago and i randomly took x2 & x0.5 as multipliers for going down or up a division, It was 1pt out for Anttt if he moved and 5.5pts out for Dru if you halved their total score to get one figure, and compared to the method Dru is using which is to use the finishing time to judge where they'd be.
If Anttt was moved to div1 (which IMO he should, he's clearly too fast and seems to want the dull easy win) then his D2 times would have put him 5th and 10th, giving him 58pts. His D2 score was 114, halved would be 57, so as a multiplier its pretty accurate there.
Dru would have been 1 place behind Anttt with 6th and 11th worth 50pts, and his D2 score was 97, halved is 44.5pts
So thats 2 method's we discussed as ways of making it fair, both give results that are pretty close to the alternative method, so i dont see as theres any problem with going with one or the other. I agree points are easier to get hold of in Div2 than Div1, but we've looked at 2 methods of removing any kind of bonus/boost acheived by swapping over,
For the record - I object to Dru moving over with 40pts, i think it should be 45-50. Mainly because thats what would have been have done for Moo if they moved divisions and also Anttt if he were to.
otherwise, no objection to you or anyone else switching over as you'd probably know anyway
Did mention this to Dru yesterday but want to make sure it does get fixed.
Hopefully that doesnt need any additional explanation
Hopefully that doesnt need any additional explanation
So you started on -50 laps for round 1?
I guess the new layouts will keep the times more like the WR time as otherwise you can take a non-hlvc route and be quicker in the last sector
Sprint race will always be a bit like that, and the slower end of the pack will have that the most because they're going to have much faster cars needing to get past the slower cars, if it wasnt a reversed grid you'd be fine (or better off) but because you have an inevitable flow of fast cars trying to make their move it'll never be easy.
Because the tracks are small there are less corners, which kinda means few passing corners. If you thought SO2 was hard going in sprint, wait till FE2R!!
Quickly wizzing through the replays i dont think you had anything more than taps, and they werent intentional or anything other than normal door to door, bumper to bumper stuff I see week in week out in DTM, V8's, BTCC & WTCC and is pretty commonplace in any road car based racing. Your biggest problem is going to be the reversed grid, with the faster drivers behind you trying to resume a more natural order. If it was just careless driving and stuff like that i'd understand, but nobody 'crashed' into you, it was all typical racing with minimal contact allowed. If in doubt, request the incident is reviewed, even if its just a small thing and warrents a warning to the other person, its a warning to be a bit more careful which i'd assume is better than saying nothing and allowing similar to continue. If its 'bad' then it'll be taken further.
As i say though, watching your race in full i dont think you had it bad, plenty of paint removed but nothing nasty or particularly careless.
Because the tracks are small there are less corners, which kinda means few passing corners. If you thought SO2 was hard going in sprint, wait till FE2R!!
Quickly wizzing through the replays i dont think you had anything more than taps, and they werent intentional or anything other than normal door to door, bumper to bumper stuff I see week in week out in DTM, V8's, BTCC & WTCC and is pretty commonplace in any road car based racing. Your biggest problem is going to be the reversed grid, with the faster drivers behind you trying to resume a more natural order. If it was just careless driving and stuff like that i'd understand, but nobody 'crashed' into you, it was all typical racing with minimal contact allowed. If in doubt, request the incident is reviewed, even if its just a small thing and warrents a warning to the other person, its a warning to be a bit more careful which i'd assume is better than saying nothing and allowing similar to continue. If its 'bad' then it'll be taken further.
As i say though, watching your race in full i dont think you had it bad, plenty of paint removed but nothing nasty or particularly careless.
Well, if its prefered that the unofficial results dont get posted then i'll respect that, and i can try and think on to double check they reflect what you guys have. I dont mind putting them on here if they're of some use as i'd almost certainly put them onto our forum anyway, i just dont want to tread on any toes after being asked to leave the standings to just official listings.
One thing i dont have at hand is D2 data, mainly the 1-3 qualifying and Fastest laps, so i cant do their bonus points without downloading the 2 races, D1 isnt a problem as im in there and have 3 others to ask if i cba watching my replay.
My excel file is uber basic and doesnt really do all that, you still have to manually select the autosum cells, but its laid out and should make it easier to go over things, its definately better than on paper or manual calculations IMO.
Of course, it always helps if you double check both afterwards anyway:
my unofficial results = "Dynomoose - 84"
but through shuffleing the standings around Dynomoose moved up 2 slots on the standings and the AutoSum feature used the cells relative to its move, so it calculated scores based on 2 cells higher, meaning it wasnt using either of their scores (Mcintyrej + hotmail)
At least with more than 1 person doing it the chances of the same mistake taking place is pretty slim.
One thing i dont have at hand is D2 data, mainly the 1-3 qualifying and Fastest laps, so i cant do their bonus points without downloading the 2 races, D1 isnt a problem as im in there and have 3 others to ask if i cba watching my replay.
My excel file is uber basic and doesnt really do all that, you still have to manually select the autosum cells, but its laid out and should make it easier to go over things, its definately better than on paper or manual calculations IMO.
Of course, it always helps if you double check both afterwards anyway:
my unofficial results = "Dynomoose - 84"
but through shuffleing the standings around Dynomoose moved up 2 slots on the standings and the AutoSum feature used the cells relative to its move, so it calculated scores based on 2 cells higher, meaning it wasnt using either of their scores (Mcintyrej + hotmail)
At least with more than 1 person doing it the chances of the same mistake taking place is pretty slim.
*Whistles knowingly*
See, nowt wrong with someone else doing the results, they're as 'official' as the unofficial results but at least if someone else has different findings they can be double checked. Would this mistake have been noticed otherwise?
would have asked on msn but you be hiding
Any chance of attaching the latest revision of this layout on here for SP/MP practicing
Any chance of attaching the latest revision of this layout on here for SP/MP practicing
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