I can't wait for rain in lfs

Quote from neRu :

Sure as hell I'm glad for my LFS drifting experience, saved my ass a couple of times in several cars

if anything it helps gets your hand dexterity up without having to go to a vacant lot somewhere and beat the s**t out of your car

Its helped me out a couple times as well :P

Quote from tristancliffe :

You do realise Spanks that there is no feel in any brake pedal - they don't work like that. Any feel you get is from the g-forces resulting from pedal pressure, not through the pedal. A brake pad with 'lots of feel' means that it reacts to pressure change more readily than other pads, and you feel that change through the accelerations, again NOT through the pedal.

You'll feel even less in a cable brake system, which I think a lot of karts are (even if only partly).

my kart was a metal linkage with a hydraulic master cylinder to a single rear caliper

cheaper, or slower karts I saw had manual cable brakes...they were horrible in comparison D:

And yeah, I suppose there wasn't really any feedback through the pedal when the braking changed, just the sweet spot that I got used to feeling to know when I pushed hard enough :P

again, I'm not opposed to adding this...so I don't really know myself what I was going on about Just making conversation I suppose

Quote from sgt.flippy :

Rofl, I played the Nascar version of that game. It was awesome for the time, I really loved it (Only for crasing the AI cars, but oh well).

Ahahaha, man...thats all I'd do too. Get to qualifying and start driving backwards and watch the car parts go everywhere

Quote from Mattesa :

I agree max brake force should be fixed. As it has already been explained, it will affect everybody, not just KB users. Threshold braking and bravery with the brakes is a huge huge huge part of racing IRL.


You're already doing everything audibly and visually. Predicting when a tire is going to lock isn't impossible. If you find yourself locking, back your foot up a bit, and remember how hard you're pushing for the next go around. This isn't terribly different than in real life. You don't get "G force warning" in real life either.

I think a lot of players (in general, not specifically to this issue) are confusing their perception of what driving is like, with the reality of actually doing it.

I've raced 7 years of my life so far 5 in a kart, 2.5 in a purpose built drag car.

G-force warning = seat of your pants feel I suppose, which is invaluable...and the biggest thing missing from a computer game

I know the feeling of what the car is doing is deadened in a road car, but when I raced my kart I was in tune with every bit and piece on that thing. No suspension made you feel the kart so well. The brake pedal offered tons of feedback. The critical point was when the pedal got real hard...and then how much harder you decided to push on it. Max brake pressure was as hard as you could push the pedal before bending something and braking it, or your leg was maxed out. With a non-responsive brake pedal you get no feeling in pressure change or any of that.

Also, when you lock up the tires or spin the tires you instantly feel a change...its almost like you just got lighter. Its those kinds of feelings that you lose on a computer, and leave you guessing on what to do.

And once again I'm kinda just babbling off topic about a point I made last night...and its not even that great of one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTNl1CGHUbc

oh man

I remember it looking so much better than this :O

I was very young and very terrible

I do this on most of my setups (this being setting my brake force relatively low)

I have it so it usually just starts locking up one of the tires, usually a front, in the slowest corner(s) on the track.

There is no way, other than audibly and visually to know that the tire is locked up. Yes, the car will react, but since the best we have is ffb through the wheel...unless you have a simulator at home...and to visually react, and adjust the brake pedal. At that point, you've already locked up the brakes for a good amount of time, and probably already need to turn in.

Now, I'm 100% for the advancement of realism in this game. I'm sure I'd be able to cope with the changes if this were implemented, and I'd be on my merry way enjoying the game. I'd probably be much slower however, as my brake pedal is just a piece of metal with a big ass spring behind it.

When this game gets so good at simulating a real car that you can't react to it anymore without having to guess, I think there will be a real problem. The pedal feel is hugely important in a real car...without that, I'm sure people would either underbrake cautiously, or overbrake constantly on a track. If you take out the ability to set the brake pressure, it will be a constant guessing game on how hard to push the pedal.

I might just be babbling incoherently as I am very...very tired, but I hope someone can make sense of this.

This is a game that is directed at the player with a steering wheel. The average steering wheel is likely a DFP or MOMO in price range, with minimal tricks and gadgets. Flappy pedals, average to meh ffb (but pretty much the best we got :shrug, and no clutch. Already the game is someone passing that demographic (I couldn't be happier with my g25 though ).

Quote from Woz :

Not really. If you need the line to tell you how and when to brake and what line to follow it means once you are off you "ideal" line you will have no idea what you are doing etc.

Racing is not about the line. Its about how you react to whats about you, how you carry yourself when forced off the line in traffic.

Learning a parrot fashion line will make you even more of a liability on the track in a race IMHO.

It is great to learn a track with and your brake points etc. But TBH, you should not be in a race unless you KNOW your brake points etc.

sounds like you want to force offline mode or something then, because as it is now...my 7 year old cousin could hop online and play for the first time on any track, any car...and nothing would be there to stop him from doing so.

I completely agree with what you are saying...people who are unable to race with other people, or know the track at all should not be racing online because of the hazard they cause...HOWEVER, the racing line helps lessen the problem, or frequency of the problems.

Being able to race in groups of people only comes from experience...this game takes some time to learn the little quirks like the lag and collision detection.

Quote from Boris Lozac :

Exactly..
We learned the tracks the hard and proper way all these years, and now kids can just press 4 and voila.. It shouldn't be there, really, especially online.. it's redicolous..

Do I need to follow you around and smash into you over and over under braking to prove my point?

If you guys just think about it...it makes for far better, and less frustrating racing.

Also, the racing line won't make them faster, or even as fast as you...so its not that big of a deal

Quote from southamptonfc :

GO **** YOURSELF TRISTAN - and I'm sure I speak for most people on this board, probably everyone you have ever met and worked with and your mother too.

Tristan is one of the more intelligent living breathing people (not a chapter out of an encyclopedia) on the internet that I have seen on the topic of cars, as well as tearing people to shreds.

His posts are hilarious, and the people usually have it coming

Whats the point of starting an argument if you don't expect there to be someone to say you're wrong??? Thats just no fun.

Maybe if you look past the insults and show some interest you might just learn something, or worse yet...even agree with him.

Quote from atlantian :

note: the term ricer is not restricted to use in any nationality of cars.

There are plenty of mustangs that are riced out, and worst are neons and homemade RS focuses

speaking of rice, i would want to see a "V-spec" Hyundai sonata with dubs and neon, with billet grills.

generally when I say american cars, due to my tastes...it excludes everything except awesome GM cars from the 60's, and notable ones thereafter

I see more riced out mustangs around here than import cars I think...its horrible

http://youtube.com/watch?v=WlDLybhuOH0

lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0tKxdFqRxU
this doesn't look very riced out to me

also, the only reason we have decals on our drag cars of companies that have parts on our cars is because they pay contingencies if you win a divisional or national event...otherwise, there would be very few, if any on the car at all.

also #2, why is it that so many drifters swap out to an LS series v8? Oh, right...because powersliding is a whole lot easier when you have low end torque on demand...A 4 cylinder...single or twin turbo with a massive intercooler and yards of extra exhaust tubing...I think that just threw out the weight difference between an all aluminum ls1 and a 4 cylinder. (not really directed at you at all...just thought I'd throw it out there)

Last edited by spanks, Mon 14 Jan 2008, 06:07.

Quote from DragonCommando :

The only thing that adding realistic automatics would do is slow down the people who use it to rediculous speeds.
For one thing, an automatic shifts at around 4.5-5k rpm.
And second, the power loss from the torque converter would just kill the acceleration, most noticable would be in the XRG, the thing would drive like a golf cart.

have you ever seen a dyno sheet of an automatic car?

Quote from tristancliffe :

Why not? Until you get into mega-bucks 'serious' drifting, with real sponsorship rather than just stickers of the components used on the car, it basically IS ricing in many ways!

unless you're awesome and use american cars to piss people off

Quote from Ball Bearing Turbo :

That's not very nice :sadbanana:



Actually, it's very simplified but not as stupid as first glance would indicate. Power IS directly related to top speed, actually, since it's really just an indication of torque delivery at higher rpms. All other things being equal, a higher HP engine will push the same car to a higher top speed - so that's not really "stupid" to say.

Also, to say torque affects acceleration is also not stupid, unless you think F=MA (or A=F/M) is stupid, and most people don't think that. For a given set of gears, the greatest acceleration numbers occur at the engine's peak torque area. So, that's not really stupid either is it? Incomplete, yes, but not stupid.

Since you have such a great understanding of this simple topic (by your own profession), please answer me in detail the following question:

The definition of 1HP = 550ft/lb per sec
Take a power curve, and plot the HP values at various places on the curve. Of course, the most amount of work is being done at the horsepower peak. Say the engine makes 300hp at 6000 rpm, that's 165,000 ft/lb/s of work being done, whereas for example at 4000rpm, the engine makes peak torque but only say 270hp which is 148,500 ft/lb/s. So we can see that more work is being done at peak HP, BUT, the problem is that max wheel torque is experienced at 4000rpm, where the engine's torque peaks. This is all, of course, in the context of a single gear ratio.

Please explain why this seeming dichotomy exists, and specifically why work is a useless concept in this situation, in terms of how fast the car would accelerate. Since it's so simple, and everyone else is a moron, and you hate us, please oblige with the all encompassing truth about the matter.

damnit

I'm always too late to come in and call people stupid and prove them wrong with solid proof and math by my side.

Torque is simply twisting force, and the only pure number coming from an engine. All other ratings are calculated from torque. When someone gives you an indian burn you don't sit there and calculate how badly it hurts over time; you just know that the harder they twist, the more it hurts.

Onto the downforce vs lift debate.

Downforce is rated as the amount of force beyond -weight at a certain speed.

If a car weighing 1000 pounds is going 500 miles per hour (your guys' cars were boring as hell), and produced 1000 pounds of lift. If you add a wing that makes it only produce 500 pounds of lift at 500 miles per hour, you are not able to say it produces 500 pounds of downforce (technically). If that were the case, when they rated a car that HAD downforce, they would have to figure out how much lift the car would have at a certain speed, and then add that to the amount of downforce it makes.

Say adding 3 wings makes the car squish down to the ground with 500 pounds of weight at 500 mph. If you all are trying to argue that any force that negates lift is downforce, then technically you would have to say that the car is producing 1500 pounds of downforce because at 500 mph with no wings, it produced 1000 pounds of lift.

Not only is that bulky to figure out, but impossible in real life situations. You can't just remove all anti-lift devices off of an f1 car and tell it to go drive 200 mph so they can figure out how much lift it produces.

Its also impossible to wind tunnel a wing and say it produces X amounts of "downforce" because it will be different on every car.

I tried to explain it more simply than I read it in the other posts, although I had no problem understanding the syntax that is the most correct way of talking about it. Before reading this thread I would have considered any negative lift downforce as well, but now i can be elitist and say anti-lift devices and such

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xDMvKHoAyU

really amazing

"Patrick Depailler at Montreal in Tyrrell 008"

doesn't say exact year, but 70's f1 in the wet...massive amounts of tire spin, and amazing driver skill

Quote :

Drag race crash, driver ended up with broken ankle, wrist, and some fingers, looked a lot worse until you realize that the car split in half and he was in the tiny back part and not in the front part that veered into the wall hard.

Truly its amazing he's alive. John Force is a good family friend, and glad he's alive. This, out of all his years, is the first real injury accident he's had in the sport!

It really is worse that his car split in two, as the front half took away all his protection as it went flying down the track. The back half included the rear axle, wheels and tires, cockpit, and john...dangling out in front with him being strapped to this mangled mess. He was basically drug on the ground as it skid to a halt on the wall. It took the safety crew some time to realize that he was actually in the back half and not in the front section that went the rest of the distance of the runoff area.

also >> http://youtube.com/watch?v=jDrNrPLhqow

why you don't build kit cars unless you know wtf you're doing

OMG MY BRAKE PEDAL FELL OFF :O

Last edited by spanks, Tue 8 Jan 2008, 07:13.

Quote from lizardfolk :

Can the devs implement the ability for the driver to wave the other driver behind him to pass?

I dont know if this is used in other racing but this is often used in NASCAR/ARCA.

The drivers would wave if their car has a problem and knows that they would cause unnecessary trouble to the car behind him or this would occur when there's a teammate willing to let the other car pass. It would also indicate that the driver ahead would be willing to let the car behind him pass if the car behind him can get up to him

This is no ABSOLUTELY necessary but it would be nice.

just use one of the f# keys and use a message

You'd never see a driver's arm waving about through the window

that guy just slipped the clutch way too much when he shifted towards the end, not power shifting at all


http://youtube.com/watch?v=17XBW5OZdOM&feature=related

this is how you power shift

http://www.lfsnews.net/default ... =shownews&news_id=651

race is tomorrow

It is a ton of fun so far

I do like the idea of locked settings a lot

is there any way to incorporate slick mod into the tune program?

Its a lot less fun without slicks

Quote from ciph :

Yes i found many new values

Wheels, Engine, Cylinders, Turbo, Turbo Max. many more..

Edit: JTBo if you dont like Tweaks then gtfo and dont post in my Thread, if you like realistic driving get a driver license and good bye

awesome, can't wait

Quote from Batterypark :

...a burnout is just for show. Why would you need more grip if you can't break traction in the first place?

Quote from me :

Its heats up the tires, brings them up to proper tire pressure, and it makes the tires softer. *edit* (I forgot to add, it also cleans the tire of any debris from driving around the pits; rocks, trash, etc.)

Tires are expensive. People wouldn't do a burnout before every pass if it didn't serve a purpose.

There is breaking traction and being able to do a full on burnout, and then there is slipping the tires slightly driving off the line.

Consistency is whats important in drag racing. Doing a burnout will help keep everything the same lap after lap

Quote from dougie-lampkin :

When you see drag racing IRL, there is usually a water "puddle" before the start line. I've often seen race officials wet the ground in that box, but I don't know what it's actually for. Can anyone enlighten me?

slicks are sticky

The water is used to help get the tire spinning, and it evaporates really quickly after the tires start getting hot. It puts less load on the engine, and in cars that don't have enough power to break traction, it allows them do a burnout.

My street car is an '01 camaro. I've got 295 wide z rated tires in the back off of a corvette. The posi isn't always strong enough to keep the power going to both tires if one starts to get grip. When you have an LSD with only one tire spinning it is very bad for the diff. Even with water it can be hard to keep both the tires spinning, and if there wasn't any water I don't think I could power brake it and get the tires spinning at all. The track is actually grippier where the cars do their burnouts than the starting line most of the time

Quote from frokki :

Injection of nitrous oxide into the combustion chambers of an internal combustion engine as a way to increase power output was discovered by the German air craft industry early in the Second World War.

I don't know why another one of these threads was bumped...

anyways, this is missing a very interesting detail. Nitrous was used to allow the planes to fly to a much higher altitude than any other plane, as they could reach altitudes where there was a starvation of oxygen, and use the nitrous to continue to fly instead of stall.

It would be nice to have a small calculator window inside the pit window to do fuel calculations and such. I alt tab to the windows calculator a lot, and it seems like it would be a nice addition to have.

I'm not gonna argue, as its aside from the point of the thread

I drag race, licenced NHRA member...I race for money, and have a dedicated car. I love drag racing, and the complexity of it goes into it is what is overlooked, and what I meant by people discrediting it. Its not just hit the gas and hope you're the fastest, at least in its more sophisticated forms.

I was comparing an automatic to a standard manual when I mentioned boosted applications; sequential with fuel cut does achieve the same thing. So does flat shifting a manual trans, but it also destroys it over time.

and yes, the efficiency loss was in reference to automatics

and launching with a manual trans, you either feather it off the line, pin the gas and slip the clutch a bunch, pin the gas and drop the clutch and most likely have tire spin, have slicks and dump the clutch and hope you have enough power not to bog. All of those are less consistent than a launch with an automatic trans.

it might not be fair to say an auto can do a better burnout, but it certainly is easier to do so. With a manual you have to start with the clutch in, and foot on the gas, then jump over to the brake and try to stop the car, but not stop the tires from spinning. Also, you can shift an automatic to get more wheel speed when doing a burnout. Unless you have a car that could practically start doing a burnout in 2nd gear with a manual trans, it will be nigh impossible to shift from 1st to 2nd, let alone 2nd to 3rd.

I was not trying to stir up any hostility, I guess I was a bit angry that night