Doesn't matter if it's on an oval or on a tight and twisty circuit like your local kart track... It's a kart, and it's BD, which you said never happened (actually, you didn't, Keiran did, but you agreed)... Do you really think other racers won't take that opportunity when it presents itself (like in BTCC)? There's 2 videos of bumpdrafting in non-NASCAR series in this thread (one RC, one kart), and still you keep saying it doesn't happen anywhere but NASCAR... How much proof do you need?
Have you ever raced me? Because then you'd know your logic doesn't make much sense... I'm probably one of the nicest people on the track. Yes, I make my share of mistakes, but I don't go slamming doors shut that I leave open, nor try to push into holes that do not exist, like some of the aliens I've raced over the years. Why? Because I want the other drivers to finish the race as much as I want myself to.
I understand lag better than most people, since it makes a huge impact on who I'll bump, and who not (ever since NR 4). There's less spike lag in LFS than there was in NR2003S (sudden warping and stuff)... And we used to BD all the time there (ESCORS championships), and it went wrong about as often as it does in the real world (ok, bit more often, but not noticably much more). Out of experience, I can tell you that bumpdrafting is safe enough when you know who to do it with and who not to do it with.
The problem remains that there are too many people BD that have no clue when and how to do it.
Replays need to take up more memory, so that every car position is saved every physics frame, so that we can simply step through the replay how we like, forward and back, and render each frame as a still... In NASCAR Racing and Papyrus I used to do 36fps renders of replays at full detail, which would take about 3 seconds per frame to do, but looked absolutely perfect (rendered them at 1280x1024 so I could do them anamorphic DVD quality).
No need to capture at running speed with Fraps that way... No lost frames, and smooth as silk, since you're rendering every frame, one by one.
I'm going to quit trying to prove my point...
Here's a vid of a KART on a long straight bumpdrafting another kart...
First a little nudge, and then when the lead car nods a long ass push (no that's NOT just running really really close) along the huge straightaway...
There is, in my book, absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of bumpdrafting in LFS...
(it's in 2 parts, because 1.95MB on the forum != 1.95MB in windows
)
Here's a vid of a KART on a long straight bumpdrafting another kart...
First a little nudge, and then when the lead car nods a long ass push (no that's NOT just running really really close) along the huge straightaway...
There is, in my book, absolutely nothing wrong with this kind of bumpdrafting in LFS...
(it's in 2 parts, because 1.95MB on the forum != 1.95MB in windows
)Let's just agree to disagree then
At least I know not to do it to you.Why would I go find you pictures of single seaters BD? I just told you it doesn't happen, and I've only ever seen the 2 idiots in the BMW World Series do it. But to say it's impossible is taking it to the other extreme, because it is possible... Just insane.
As for the Kyle Petty quote... At least you know why he's always hung out to dry on the speedways...
Bumping on the straights or bumping in turns?
There's plenty of times when 2 or more drivers in BTCC line up behind eachother and push eachother forwards... Especially on the few tracks which have straights... Whether you think so or not, that's bumpdrafting...
1. Wrong... Don't know where you got that idea, but it's wrong... Watch the video posted in this thread of the Dijon race... That's not an oval, and it is bumpdrafting.
2. Agree, although I did see a couple do it for a couple of laps, and it pretty much worked. Some open wheel cars produce no dirty air, just a big hole in the air, which is exactly what they wanna do in F1. It's still too dangerous to do irl in open wheelers.
3. Yeah, agreed... But the ones that are not dumb idiots bumpdraft and simply say they're dumb idiots... Who's to know?
4. Once again... BD != ramming. It's pushing a car, not ramming it through the soundbarrier. I think you would hardly notice a correct bumpdraft any other way than the revs of the car going up and it feeling a little light on the steering.
What?? There's tons of BD in BTCC... It's just not as obvious as in LFS... Almost all touring car series has bumpdrafting.
I can do nothing but kindly inform you that there are, in fact, several championships that do not involve cars with no roof, huge inverted wings front and back, and wheels that stick out like antennae. There indeed is a reason you don't see it in those classes, although I did watch a BMW World Series race this week (replay) where there actually were 2 drivers who DID bumpdraft... Even I thought they were mental.
Bump more, because as long as you stay in someone's draft the aero damage doesn't affect you
(not the answer you were looking for, was it?
)I agree with you except with the last part if you meant you'd hit the brakes... As has been said a couple times (read at least page 2, m8) there's no reason to take out a bumpdrafter... You could just tell him to stop. Oh, and in case you didn't catch that part... I'm talking about the people that nudge you gently, not the people that run into you with a 20mph difference in speeds, because I think that's insane as much as you do.
If you didn't mean that:
I agree with you.
Last edited by TagForce, .
Happy New Year all... May this year be one of many PBs, WRs, and lots and lots of fun on LFS...
To the devs I'd like to give a very big thank you for S2Alpha, and may this year bring you loads of happy and supporting racers, a lot of breakthroughs in the game development, and of course all the joy and happiness you could ever hope for. Keep it up guys.
To the devs I'd like to give a very big thank you for S2Alpha, and may this year bring you loads of happy and supporting racers, a lot of breakthroughs in the game development, and of course all the joy and happiness you could ever hope for. Keep it up guys.
Wrecking is a strategy to finish alone... Not in first. There is a difference between punting cars into the wall, and pushing a car to gain speed. In the first, the other car doesn't finish, in the latter everyone finishes, but not necessarily in the order of speeds on hotlaps.
For now, let's just agree to disagree, because we're not ever going to agree on this subject on this forum.
Valkyrie: Read my explanation of BD a bit higher up in the thread... BD is ALL about winning... The fact that it's also the best way to get a low pb has nothing to do with the practice of BD... At least not with people who know what they're doing. The only reason the pb times are mentioned is to show you how much of an advantage it can have...
Vain: Unfortunately for you, in most national touring car series it is NOT forbidden. However, the person doing the bumpdrafting will be held responsible (and possibly be penalized) for any crashes that are a result of it. Online as well as in real life it is a risk you take, but when executed properly the benefits for both drivers involved may well outweigh the risks.
How is it not fair to the other drivers? Isn't racing about finishing first? If bumpdrafting helps drivers gain on the leader, then it's not their fault that they (unlike the other drivers who don't BD) go faster. If you don't like the practice of BD, fine, don't do it. But either start doing it yourself, or quit bitchin' about it being cheating while it's just another form of strategy that you can (and should) use to WIN RACES. Seriously, don't do it if you don't want to, but accept the fact that 2 guys who are BD and beat you didn't do so by cheating, but by working together.
Vain: Unfortunately for you, in most national touring car series it is NOT forbidden. However, the person doing the bumpdrafting will be held responsible (and possibly be penalized) for any crashes that are a result of it. Online as well as in real life it is a risk you take, but when executed properly the benefits for both drivers involved may well outweigh the risks.
How is it not fair to the other drivers? Isn't racing about finishing first? If bumpdrafting helps drivers gain on the leader, then it's not their fault that they (unlike the other drivers who don't BD) go faster. If you don't like the practice of BD, fine, don't do it. But either start doing it yourself, or quit bitchin' about it being cheating while it's just another form of strategy that you can (and should) use to WIN RACES. Seriously, don't do it if you don't want to, but accept the fact that 2 guys who are BD and beat you didn't do so by cheating, but by working together.
Too bloody much time on your hands!
But thank you sooo much for the movies! They are absolutely marvelous!
Great job!
But thank you sooo much for the movies! They are absolutely marvelous!
Great job!
And again you fail to see the point of BD...
I can tell you that the normal drafting method does in fact NOT get you around the track faster. Since after one straight (we're talking oval here) you lose the draft completely and don't get it back until the straight after you've been drafted. The trick is to end up really close to the car in front, and gently nudging into his rear so as not to upset his car, and then just push him forward gently. When I bump you I don't want to pass you, I want you to hold your perfect line through all the corners... I can see where you're at, so I can get out of your draft and take the corner on a higher line... Then on corner exit I can get onto your gearbox again and bump you along the next straight, etc... This method is faster than passing all the time (although on the oval that is still faster than a single car can go).
Beamer just setting the Cam up for a bumpdraft there :P (kidding)
I think you're missing the point of bumpdrafting here...
When 2 racers decide to bumpdraft, they actually agree not to overtake eachother and fight for position. Fighting for position slows you down, and when the 2nd and 3rd place drivers want to catch up to the leader, they need to have some form of cooperation going on. In general, the driver that is the fastest through the turns will get 'the point' in a bumpdraft deal. This driver will be 2nd, and will lead the slower driver through the turns, guiding him over the best line (it's easier to navigate when you have a close focal point in front of you), and the following car will in turn push the lead car to higher speeds on the straights... Until there's a pack of 3, there is absolutely no overtaking happening. Once the leader's been caught, all hell breaks loose and the overtaking commences.
As for the "who's to inform who" question... In real racing, it is the lead car that has the capabilities of signing to the following cars, since they can clearly see him in his car. So that's where the responsibility of you telling me not to bump you comes from. Just because I am able to tell you what I'm going to do from behind, doesn't mean that SHOULD be what happens, nor does it mean it happens like that in real life... I could agree with you on changing the signing responsibility to the following car, though. Just that I've always learned that the front runner is the only one that can sign to the back, unless both drivers know there's going to be comms.
As for the replay... We'll meet on the tracks one of these days, and I'll show you (not on you, but on some willing racer) what the difference in laptimes can be. If you want a quick look, there's a link to a video posted in this thread that shows just how much of an advantage bumpdrafting can have over normal drafting, and also how the driver of the car in the video tells the following car he doesn't want to be bumped. (to save you about 25 mins of LX racing: The cam-car drafts 2 other cars and gains quickly, then gets out of the draft to pass, and halfway passed the first car he's slowed down by having the wind in his face, and ends up where he started.)
It all depends on what you want to accomplish with the draft... If I want to pass someone I'm not going to bump him, simply because every mph he gains makes it harder for me to pass... However, bumping someone might negate the effect of the 3rd car that tries to pass me by drafting me in the normal way, because he will be in full air, and we are 2 cars as one, gaining speed. It also might help you to make up that 3 seconds the leader has on you 2, which simply wouldn't work in the normal way.
I'll try to find a good racer that will allow me to demonstrate bumpdrafting on Blackwood.
EDIT:
I agree there are too many noobs bumpdrafting on Blackwood that scare even me... Word of advice to people who've just started racing in LFS... Don't bumpdraft until you are able to match the speed of the car in front of you every time, without touching him or feathering the throttle... Then, and ONLY then, you may think about bumpdrafting him. And only on the long straights, and only until 200 meters before the next braking point. Trust me, the first couple of months you race, you should never, under any circumstance, bump another car for speed.
Last edited by TagForce, .
What are we talking about here?
Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?
I've been known to bumpdraft on long straights in any car except the formulas... But my bumpdrafting is NEVER about ramming someone into going faster... I've never caused any car to fly off into the sunset, nor even get upset by my touching... The end result should always be two engines pushing two cars forward through half the air it normally takes.
And you should always let up early when your bumpdrafting someone... Your going faster than normal, so you should brake earlier... And you should give the lead car plenty of room to do his/her braking.
About not bumpdrafting in formula cars... That's just plain wrong, it DOES happen... Just not that often because basically the cars are built in a way that passing someone in a regular draft who passes you in another regular draft, etc, has more advantage. Yes, the nose is less forgiving when it comes to touching, but trust me when I say that the carbonfibre nosecones on IRL cars are a LOT harder to break than the steelplating/steel grilleplate on a NASCAR nose. It's just that the Formula cars need to be bumped with more precision so as not to ruin the lead cars gearbox or rear wing and there aren't that many places where you can safely bump someone.
As for it being cheating... Where did you get that idea? Are you a person who won't run high-nose setups? Even if the effect is too severe, it's still something that is done in real life, and it's not cheating there... As is the high-nose config, btw, done in real life (look at tristans car, it actually HAS the high-nose config built into the wing!)...
Racing is not a solitary sport... It's not something you do alone... On some tracks you can win by being selfish and fast, and on some tracks the winner will be determined by the way people work together (most notably the oval, but KYGP and BL as well)... If this involves hanging someone out to dry because you know he's faster in the twisty sections, then by all means you should hang him out to dry (which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with). If this involves bumpdrafting someone to get a small lead into a series of turns, then do it...
Racing is not about being the fastest driver... Racing is about crossing the finishline first. If it was about being the fastest driver we'd all be watching timetrials for F1 GPs.
There are plenty of ways you can let me know you don't want me bumpdrafting you without you wrecking my race... If you pass me on the inside and push me out I don't go slamming you into the wall from the inside on the next turn... That would be wrecking... So would repaying a bumpdraft with a braketest or a sideswipe be...
Yes, it's more dangerous online because of lag, but you can pretty much see what stable cars you can try a bumpdraft with and which would lag into you. It's nothing more dangerous than going into turn 1 3-wide after the start, which most of you (me included) seem to have no problem with.
Why don't we just end this discussion about the wrongs and rights of bumpdrafting, and just kindly communicate how you feel about it when the need's there on the track? You'll never agree with me, at least not until you actually have me pushing you along the BL straight and find it is actually a useful and fun way of cooperating with someone to gain time. It's all part of strategy.
Bumpdrafting, or the noobish slamming someone to go faster?
I've been known to bumpdraft on long straights in any car except the formulas... But my bumpdrafting is NEVER about ramming someone into going faster... I've never caused any car to fly off into the sunset, nor even get upset by my touching... The end result should always be two engines pushing two cars forward through half the air it normally takes.
And you should always let up early when your bumpdrafting someone... Your going faster than normal, so you should brake earlier... And you should give the lead car plenty of room to do his/her braking.
About not bumpdrafting in formula cars... That's just plain wrong, it DOES happen... Just not that often because basically the cars are built in a way that passing someone in a regular draft who passes you in another regular draft, etc, has more advantage. Yes, the nose is less forgiving when it comes to touching, but trust me when I say that the carbonfibre nosecones on IRL cars are a LOT harder to break than the steelplating/steel grilleplate on a NASCAR nose. It's just that the Formula cars need to be bumped with more precision so as not to ruin the lead cars gearbox or rear wing and there aren't that many places where you can safely bump someone.
As for it being cheating... Where did you get that idea? Are you a person who won't run high-nose setups? Even if the effect is too severe, it's still something that is done in real life, and it's not cheating there... As is the high-nose config, btw, done in real life (look at tristans car, it actually HAS the high-nose config built into the wing!)...
Racing is not a solitary sport... It's not something you do alone... On some tracks you can win by being selfish and fast, and on some tracks the winner will be determined by the way people work together (most notably the oval, but KYGP and BL as well)... If this involves hanging someone out to dry because you know he's faster in the twisty sections, then by all means you should hang him out to dry (which means, break his draft by simply refusing to let him draft you and picking another car to draft with). If this involves bumpdrafting someone to get a small lead into a series of turns, then do it...
Racing is not about being the fastest driver... Racing is about crossing the finishline first. If it was about being the fastest driver we'd all be watching timetrials for F1 GPs.
There are plenty of ways you can let me know you don't want me bumpdrafting you without you wrecking my race... If you pass me on the inside and push me out I don't go slamming you into the wall from the inside on the next turn... That would be wrecking... So would repaying a bumpdraft with a braketest or a sideswipe be...
Yes, it's more dangerous online because of lag, but you can pretty much see what stable cars you can try a bumpdraft with and which would lag into you. It's nothing more dangerous than going into turn 1 3-wide after the start, which most of you (me included) seem to have no problem with.
Why don't we just end this discussion about the wrongs and rights of bumpdrafting, and just kindly communicate how you feel about it when the need's there on the track? You'll never agree with me, at least not until you actually have me pushing you along the BL straight and find it is actually a useful and fun way of cooperating with someone to gain time. It's all part of strategy.
The way I understood him he doesn't brake because he has to... He does it to wreck you (and more than likely himself and several innocent racers as well).
It's like that video a couple posts higher... Don't like it... Show the drafter you don't like it by doing the online equivalent of waving the (index)finger at him.
And that's the way it should be... Although the intonation could be a bit more, uhmmm, friendly?
Good job on moving the thread, but would you mind leaving a little note saying you moved it next time? Saves us all some confusion...
There's one thing more stupid than bumpdrafting with lag... And that's hitting the brakes when you're being bumpdrafted... That goes right down on my list about 1 point higher than ramming someone off the track on purpose... And I will mark you as a wrecker if you ever do that to me. (not that that's something to be worried of, but you could simply tell me not to bump you, and I won't)
Well, it happens a whole lot more than you, and a lot of others, wanna think. Last night on Motors TV there was the BMW World Cup season replay, and there were a couple of guys that were bumpdrafting very often... Deliberately, and in Formula cars! And almost ALL saloon series have loads of bumpdrafting throughout the field...
Doesn't make it easy, nor safe... But it's as much part of racing as overtaking (which you don't get in F1 either, so that may be why they don't Bump).
It is indeed a good price... But might I ask what is wrong with bumpdrafting the XRT or XFG on Blackwood? That's one of the tracks I ALWAYS bumpdraft on, because even with lag it's relatively safe to do on that long straight.
Especially in the slower cars the advantages are huge.
No, but then the first sentence doesn't make sense...
Oh, and the plane was a small Piper CUB... Hope nobody you knew was involved.
Only to find out it doesn't fit onto todays graphics adapter's RAM...
It's going to be a huge model, but the texturing doesn't necessarily have to be a particularly huge task... There's like 16 different trees, 8 types of armco, 6 grasstype patches, 6 dirttype patches, 5 types of asphalt, 156000 different types of writing on that asphalt, and 6 colors of kerbing. Add some billboards, and some housing, and the ring is bigger than what we currently have, but not monstrously huge.
Of course we won't be able to do anything with the replay itself outside of LFS, even if it IS a frame by frame state file at 36fps... But it would help greatly if we were able to get stats from the MPR files directly, rather than having to actually 'play' the entire race and use in/out sim packets. Not only would it help US users, but it would help LFS as a platform for tournaments/seasons in online racing... Just look at some of the NASCAR 2003 Season standings... at the moment it's impossible to create something like that in LFS without having to watch the entire replay over and record the info realtime in a side app at the risk of losing some data. Moreover the replays themselves and therefor the resulting video output would be a lot smoother because it's easier to interpolate and smooth movement if the data further up in the replay can be read ahead and taken into consideration.
Get what I'm going for?
not true... Only if the data is used 1:1... However... LFS does far more than just translate the incoming data to something on the screen, it actually calculates all the physics for each car until the next packet arrives... So it may just be the PC that's stressed with 20 cars of physics calcs.
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