the ~ means AC...

Funny kitties might not come across well in small avatars... Unless you want the BLUE FLAG message to take up the entire image.

Quote from Becky Rose :

I capture at 800x600 at a locked 30 frames per second, this is above DVD quality, infact I cut out the outside edges of the frame. I rarely get dropped frames.

Agreed, but post-processing messes up the quality of the movie.
I always capture at a whopping 50 or 60 fps (depending on where the movie will be shown). This has the advantage of creating excellent slow-mo footage, and it doesn't mess up the frametiming when creating a DVD (30fps needs to be downscaled to 25fps for PAL).
This unfortunately is hardly possible real-time without AV-drives and a stunning computer.

Quote :

The fact that it is 'missing' from LFS is hardly an issue, you just need to use the right tools for the job and it's unfair to expect LFS to work with something like Fraps or Hypercam when you're on a low end or low-middle system.

Any half decent gaming rig these days is dual core, put a half decent graphics card in and problem solved.

It's not 'missing' from LFS... It is possible. It would be nice to be able to capture at any resolution at any speed (120fps for all I care). The right tools simply aren't there yet. I'm not expecting LFS to work on any system and get the quality I want. I don't blame LFS for that. I understand why it's not in, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see it added nor see an insim app doing the capturing.

And no, to get really high quality videos (which I'm after), a half decent comp won't do. A high end comp won't quite do. There's always FPS fluctuations on any system, and those get recorded as well. But I think that's beyond the scope of what we are discussing (I'd be happy to discuss this further, though).

Quote from sil3ntwar :

at one of the recent races a backmacker held up the field badly as the lead car stormed away out of the last few corners and no one can pass until the S/F line. Its a good rule however the backmarkers should drop back through the field rather than drive around and join the tail.

That was team Pakistan at the Zandvoort A1GP race. Was funny as hell... You could see him think: "Ok, what should I do now? Accelerate, Move, or just stay where I'm at?!"

Quote from NotAnIllusion :

@TagForce: I'd imagine the rule only applies to lapped cars in front of the leader, in which case they'd not get the lap back just catch up with the other backmarkers.

That's what happens now. That wouldn't actually change anything.

[off-topic]
Carom3D... For some reason it feels incomplete... Like, where are the jumpshots?
[/off-topic]

Quote from Gimpster :

Gunn,

The G25 is a limited edition model, they are not planing to make a ton of them and not that many people have $300 lying around to by them. If they did ACT Labs setups would never have been cancled, only to slowly be reborn.

Limited just means they won't keep producing it. They'll make plenty of them, and when that's done they won't make more. It's not that they'll be gone if you don't get one first week.

Quote :

The point is that the majority of us will not ever have a clutch or an H-Shifter. The ablity to use auto clutch or a sequential shifter should not be limited because this is a physical limitation. The other aids I see no problems limiting there use, as they are all skill based aids.

I agree on the sequential/H shifter issue. This is pure hardware. Auto clutch less so, because you can map a single button to the clutch. Although I see where you're coming from, I've changed my mind on the autoclutch option, and now think it is a setting that should be forcable. If LFS would never miss a gear I would have no problems with auto-clutch enabled all the time, but since using auto-clutch automatically disables an in-game problem (mis shifts) I see it now as a driving aid (rather than a hardware aid) and as such should be forcable.

Quote :

I have seen how this way of thinking can run a sim, Simbin's GTR2k2 mod was a good example. The only server I could ever find with other people were hardcore, no aids, and you know what they were almost always empty and full of elitest asshats. Going this route before the majoprity of the comunity has the physical means to access servers that are locked down with no allowed aids will fracture this comunity and will do it a great disservice.

I don't think it will come to that. If Redline Racing servers notice all their people running away since they forced aids off, they'll turn them back on. And for every server that will have aids turned off, there'll be 4 that don't.

I stand by my opinion, driving aids should be forced, as long as it doesn't make it impossible to join a server based on what hardware you have.

Wait... Do lapped cars get their lap back?
If not, they could just have the lead lap cars pass the lapped cars, and *not* create a problem for the timing systems.

Quote from i30i3i3y :

I wanted 'Bobby' but some yank has it apparantly, so I needed to be a little 'creative' . It's surprising how many people fail to understand my username.

Luckily I'm |33+, so I can read it fine

l30l3l3y would've been easier, though, I suspect...

Edit: By the way, I have no regrets about my username... I was TagForce, I am TagForce, and I will always remain TagForce... Chances are, if you find anything to do with sims on the net and it has the name TagForce attached to it, it's me. I even have a game named after me (Yeah, so it's Yu-Gi-Oh!, maybe I'll sue).

Last edited by TagForce, Thu 19 Oct 2006, 00:37.

Hmmmzzz. I think we're actually agreeing on the subject.

One of the main problems with current video productions, and especially live broadcasts, is the camera movement is too accurate. In real life (as demonstrated in my first video) a camera, even when focussing on a single car, isn't perfectly aimed at the car. It moves around the car, changes focus, etc, etc. If that can be helped by an automated system (using insim this should be possible) it would add a tremendous amount of realism to videos.

Second part is overlays. The second movie has overlays. Not the best I've seen (I've seen 768k streams at high-res that used life-like widescreen overlays like on TV), but they were live overlays. This is also possible to create for LFS, both live (automated) and as a post-production add-on. This would also add to the immersion.

Next ingredient would be the director's chair. This is going to be a problem. This will be virtually impossible to do live, unless you have 15 screens showing every part of the track. Some kind of 'action' trigger using insim might help somewhat, but that's going to be one heck of a job. LFSMM has a feature like that, but that only works for post-race capturing.

The final problem (which can only be helped on post-race capturing) is the way screenshots are processed. NR2003S, GPL, and RBR have the best way of doing this, LFS, for lack of a better word, suX0rz at it. Although it could be done using insim, I suspect. You need to be able to advance the replay frame by frame (at say 29.97fps), and capture each and every frame without loss of quality.

In summary, the best way to capture in-game footage live and direct, with a realistic look would need the following features (either in LFS, or insim utilities):
- Realistically moving cameras
- Pre-defined custom track cameras (also, less restricted camera positions would help creating realistically placed cameras)
- Instant focussed car switch
- In-game overlays (of course selectable)

All of these could be created using insim. But for the moment, these features are not available.

NR2003 has the advantage that these pieces of software have already been written. The camera shots in the first video could've been used in the 2nd. It would require a lot more work for the people creating the broadcast, though.

Everything else is human work. We'll see how things progress... I'll try to make a video sometime soon from one of our XP Open races.

Quote from K.David :

One from me

ROFL... That's the first one that actually shows a facial expression that fits

Last edited by TagForce, Wed 18 Oct 2006, 21:46.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Not being funny Tagforce, but post production effects / screen wipes are the domain of artistic videos - which is what that one is, it's not for a broadcast series like the STCC.

Which is why I said 'intro'... But the camera angles used are for broadcast series.

Quote :

The second one, well it has onscreen position ticker graphics and i'm already on the case for that for the STCC - so that's good news, but it might not be complete for round 3. Otherwise that is much the same but they're using a game cam that follows 1 car. I notice with a certain amount of irony that they too have technical problems on the commentry !

Yes, but the difference between that video and the STCC videos is that theirs was broadcast live (including a racecast race progress application on their website).

I'm not dissing your movies.. I think they're fine for now. But for a post-race production, the quality is not nearly good enough to entertain a lot of people for a long period. That is not your fault, it's mostly because no good tools or options for videos exist in this community yet, making video production needlessly slow. And that was the point we originally made.
The LFSMM was a good initiative, but unfortunately it died prematurely.

EDIT: BTW, do a transition when you go to a replay in the movies. Looks better

Last edited by TagForce, Wed 18 Oct 2006, 19:40.

Quote from Becky Rose :

Yes please! Not because I want to prove the statement wrong. I just want to knick ideas.

You want ideas for camera angles? Or post-production intro effects?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kzkyBAMewds

Live broadcast...
(well, it was live at some point)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rSMo7IPjd-s

Last edited by TagForce, Wed 18 Oct 2006, 18:16.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Link to better video?

I looked, but it seems all the old VRW race recap videos and broadcasts have been removed (seeing as they're 4 years old now, understandably).
There must be some season reviews around somewhere that show what I mean... I'll look a bit deeper when I have time.

Quote :

Agreed. But the little things that STCC does add a lot to the production. Things like slow-mo replays, car position overlays, etc. The only racing vids I've seen that come anywhere close so far are either professionally made trailers (like the GTR2 trailer) or race coverage which uses the normal in-game cameras and a pair of announcers. The in-game camera control is, in my opinion, 90% of the problem. Not just in LFS, but in all racing games I've played. Very seldom in a real race do you see the camera focus on one car. The competition between two or more cars is where all the action is.

Oh, I agree with you, but if Nascar 2003 can broadcast live races with commentary and live position overlays, then why shouldn't that be made possible for LFS? If it's post-race production videos, then papyrus sims beat LFS in quality movies hands-down. That's largely due to the way you need to capture images from LFS, though.

It's not that the STCC vids are bad... They are highly enjoyable. They could be better though, but that was not the point. I still don't have the feeling I'm watching a race broadcast. Something that some older Nascar Racing 2k3 videos did manage to do.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I wonder if you can tell me the name of the tire technician for the Ferrari F1 team?

Kees van der Grint

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I don't believe this is the case at all. Becky and Tristan want to expand the audience for sim racing, not constrict it to their series alone. The more viewers they have, the more racers are attracted to LFS. The more racers are attracted, the more series can be run. It's a snowball effect and I'm sure that the STCC folks know that (and want to encourage it). The reason that the STCC videos are the best is because they take a LONG time and a LOT of effort to put together. If it were easy, don't you think other long running series would have done it by now?

I think you, and Becky too, are mixing up two different entities... LFS and Simracing are not one and the same. The STCC videos are the best of LFS, but as far as simracing videos go, they are a long way from being at the top of simracing.

Creating these kind of videos is easy once you have an initial procedure figured out. It is just very time-consuming to do it manually.

What's being asked here is not making it easier... Just faster (real-time fast).

Quote from the_angry_angel :

Ever get the feeling someone is fed up of answering the same sort of question over and over again? If you're listening face-less GS drone, I apologise

lol... but you don't mean that... Ever think how they respond when they open the mailbox and see another mail from you?

"Oh... my... god... I swear if he sends us one more email I'm going to (Outlook makes the new-mail dih-duhm sound)...fuuucccccccaaaaaaAAAAAAAARRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!"

Quote from Cue-Ball :

Try driving the G25 with all aids off for 50 laps or so. Trust me, you'll give a LOT of thought to mis-shifts.

I will, as soon as Logitech says it's ok for me to have one... Damnit... Another week or so. :scared::worried:

Quote from Woz :

Actually, news has changed and 9.0L is DX9 for Vista

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35140

BTW. For those that have not heard yet the latest on Vista. You can only upgrade your hardware ONCE with Vista then your licence is no longer valid.

So buy a new machine, have a Mobo fail and that is one licence gone and if that mobo turns out bad you have to purchase Vista again. Thats nice of MS.

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=35057

Well... Different sources say different things... I was told (by Microsoft) that this would apply to OEM licenses only (which would be 1 more install than what we have for XP). What does apply to regular licenses is that you can only (re)sell a Vista license once. So if you buy a Vista license from another user, you cannot sell it again.
My colleague, who's in actual sales, was told your story (also by Microsoft, on the same frikkin day)...
I'm guessing the licensing model for Vista is shrouded in mystery for now.

Quote from Cue-Ball :

I personally feel that the ability to disable auto-clutch is extremely important. Possibly not as important as automatic shift or auto-blip, but very important none the less. Auto-clutch is a driving aid, just like braking help or auto-lift. With auto-clutch enabled it's virtually impossible to have a mis-shift, slow shift, missed gear, etc. There's a reason that the very high-end racing series have now adopted sequential, clutchless transmissions (they have a clutch, of course. but the driver is not required to do the clutching).

Auto-clutch shouldn't matter for the GTR cars since they realistiacally would use sequential boxes, but for the slower cars like the TBO class, the ability to disable auto cluching is extremely important.

Good points... Hadn't thought of misshifts. Alright then... Autoclutch forced off

Scawen needs to get driving lines like that into LFS rallyX

(whenever you feel like it, as long as it's done before I die)

Is the auto-clutch system really that important to add as an option?
I thought this was more about the more controversial settings of automatically blipping and lifting the throttle on shifts, and for the die-hard simulator fans to have the option of fixed (randomized) setups and cockpit view.

If it's about using a clutch button versus a clutch pedal, the clutch button could be made slower than instant.

(I don't like options that would potentially ban me from joining servers because I don't have the necessary exotic hardware. Cockpit view is so bleedingly obviously a must have force option (mind you: OPTION!) that I wouldn't mind that, most people not able to run cockpit view now are probably going to be out of luck for S3 anywayz)

Quote from Jamexing :

When was the last time any RL race driver achieved major success with NO understanding of automotive engineering and the effects of car setup? Isn't a racing sim supposed to simulate what RL racers do to get their machines tweaked? A driver cannot excel IRL racing by driving alone.

The truth is setup skills are also a part of one's driving skills. For those uninformed, you are all welcome to ask valid questions on car setup. If you'r just too busy, there's always the download option. So no, you shouldn't be painfully slow just because you're a newbie with no setup of your own.

You'd be surprised how many top formula class drivers have NO clue what to do to a car to make it handle better... The best they can do is say what the car is doing for each turn (it's understeering in slow corners, that fast left hander is difficult with the oversteer as it is now)... The engineer then changes the setup options to change the car's behaviour. When's the last time you've seen a F1 driver take a wrench to the front left damper to change the rebound setting? You ask all the formula 1 drivers today what changing the front left damper rebound setting does, and 90% will have to say "I dunno". They need to be really good at telling the team what a car is doing at any given point on the track, not what settings to change. Sure, they know the basics of car setups... Mostly the settings they can change from inside the car, but for most that's it.

Quote :

Forced setups are perfectly fine to me as long as they're confined to special leagues where all are supposed to drove supposedly identical stock cars. Just don't get in onto more public servers.

BTW, most other sims I've driven don't have terrible setups to start with. As it is, the current LFS default setups are mostly horrid. So NASCAR is NASCAR and can't be compared directly to LFS.

Nobody said the forced setups would need to be default setups... Just as you can send the setups to other racers, so could the server send the fixed setup as you join the server.

Quote :

Besides in a top level league where the best LFS players get to compete with each other, shouldn't they be allowed to show their top form with their own custom setup cars? Let's pit the best against each other and see how good they can REALLY get. Now that's racing.

I'm sorry? Their own custom car setups? Tell me how realistic the car setups, and more so the way they were created, are in LFS right now?
Did you know that a car setup for Barcelona in June is radically different from the setup in December? What you do in a car on a track is start with a basic set, and change that for the current situation. They have only a couple of hours to build their set, not hours and hours for months.

At the very least, if you want to be realistic, you should force them to start with some sort of default setup, and have them tweak it over the course of practice and qualify. That would show their top form. Unfortunately, we don't have engineers to help out, so even that would not be realistic.

Quote :

And yes, cockpit mode should have been forced a long time ago for all online or multiplayer races. It's about time everyone drives in LFS as a sim.

Sorry, but don't you think that's a bit ego-centric? Say no to forced setups because you don't like it, but say yes to force something that makes some users unable to play the game at all. We're still talking about an option, but you're going past the option, and force it on everybody.

Quote from Tick :

Heres another thread that should be closed.

Reason? after the first 20 or so replies it went off topic!
Better yet. Delete the useless jargon below the bottom most on topic useful poster!

My 2cents.

I only count 7 off-topic posts...
threads being closed are a direct result of moderating, so the subject of moderating would be on-topic. But yeah... Some posts could be edited/deleted in a cleaning up kind of fashion.

[off-topic]

Quote from MyBoss :

lol

Who is that in your avatar? I wish she was My Boss
[/off-topic]

Quote from P5YcHoM4N :

Weird, when I used it, it threw back Pro, I'd have to install it again to check, but that is way too much work.

I have no idea how WMCE behaves when upgrading an XP Pro install... It may be it will install MCE over Pro, in which case it would basically be Pro with the MCE shell. I've always believed it behaved like XP Home rather than Pro every time I installed it for one of our 'beloved customer relations'... The Microsoft statement kind of confirms that, but I'm not 100% sure it actually is just Home, or Pro with a lot of cool stuff removed.