more progress ...

Quote from xolan1993 :

So mainly the goal here isnt to make a copy of LFS but to document the binary for mod development.

Assuming Scawen was OK with it, wouldn't you still need to redo this work every time there's an update? I don't know much about the practicalities of compiling source to an executable (mine are not-that-kind-of-compilation), but is it possible and/or practical to steer a compiler to store variables in a set place in an exe?

Quote from Gutholz :

I am simply not a fan of too much on-screen GUI in sims. For many car classes it feels out of place, too high-tech. I feel that being aware what happens around your car (mirrors, sound, looking around) is an important skill. Radar goes against that. However, on some setups with small screens can be hard to do that so I do not mind if people use it.

Same, if I use a radar it's more for other people's benefit than my own

I always preferred to use the AONIO radar over Lazy's because it was 'lower-tech'... but have to admit Lazy's was much more helpful (too helpful for realism, as you say, but it is nice to not be "that guy who doesn't know what's happening around him" now and then).

Quote from johneysvk :

1 - if you mean code of conduct or gentlemen agreements, won't work, because there's nobody to enforce it and game allows for use of button clutch, to accomodate for different input methods. Maybe it could work differently, sure, but that's one for the devs.
2 - and who's gonna check every lap and do that?

Changing the way the clutch works would result in a noncompatible update, i'm pretty sure, so that would also automatically clear the hotlap list, two birds with one stone.
Maybe it will come in the long awaited update with new physics, guess we'll see

But we can't do anything about this, only the devs do.
Again, assuming you didn't already, if it's really such a big issue, feel free to drop them an e-mail, or maybe wait for one of them to reply on this topic.

And thank you very much for your selfless sacrifice of financing my 'little private games between people that know'
You seem to be thinking it's some super evil cheater cabal, which is really not the case.

P.S.: This game's popularity has little to do with attitudes of 1-2 people in a forum thread (my previous posts might have been a bit over the top though, i admit), but rather slow development pace. I know things are done in a certain way, and it's part of what makes LFS so great, but it's just how it is.
Development is not mine or any other users' responsibility and aside from that i see decent amount of online racing, media content, mods etc. generated by the userbase.
So yeah... crying on the wrong grave here.

1. I haven't thought of a deontology, even if I like the idea . I was talking about the game code which can, for example, make shifting penalizing if the accelerator is left fully depressed. This would partly render the effect of the button clutch obsolete (well, I think).

2. A simple algorithm could analyse the files of the replays and eliminate those on which the pedals are not used correctly. Of course, someone has to be prepared to do this

Don't worry, since there's nothing for me online yet (I don't despair), the sacrifice is bearable. But what I meant was that there are people who love this game (and buy it) who are different from you, who don't have the same ideas or the same practices. They don't expect the same things you do. You still have to give them space for the community to evolve and grow. The important thing, what brings us together, is LFS. Nothing forces us to fight.

For the rest, don't take it for yourself. I said "you" in general. You "people who know" and who remain attached to their customs, little habits and little secrets. I know the LFS community is not a cheating community. It's just disappointing, and also discouraging, to see that the WRs are ... rigged

Without resentment. I'm used to dealing with adversity. I have no problem with that. I sometimes search a bit too

EDIT: We all know that nothing will happen to improve the cheating situation right now. It would be totally counterproductive to spend time on this.
If this discussion makes it possible to underline that the next update will have to be accompanied by a kind of Reset, it is already good.
If the ambition is to cast a wider net than in the existing community, this seems essential. That doesn't mean burying 20 years of history. But to start again on a virgin and healthy base, if possible less permissive.

Last edited by Avraham Vandezwin, Sun 16 Apr 2023, 08:22. Reason : Last clarification

Speaking of nostalgia, I did a small review of my '10 years in LFS' about a year ago:

https://www.facebook.com/micha ... 00/posts/4999071990117482

Had a great time going through all the stuff I've experienced in that time, so many great memories, friendships, battles, championships,... I don't regret a single second spent here

Quote from detail :

They do suport it. Sociology is true...

Apparently you do not live in Russia, which explains a lot. It's funny that when you disagree with my position, you don't offer any counterarguments. You just say no "that's not true"... and what do you expect me to argue with? Am I supposed to answer "no it's not true"? And then we're supposed to throw poop at each other?

Quote from detail :

Pollsters who do these polls, know their job very well -- they do test their questions for bias, they did make different questions to detect different sentiment.

Yes, you're right.. in Russia everything is so fair and correct, sociologists do unbiased surveys, and the police know how to catch criminals, judges know how to punish defendants fairly. Officials in russia know how to take care of citizens and of course they don't take bribes...



Sorry, maybe you put it strangely, but from the outside it looks like you don't know anything about Russia...

Quote from detail :

The argument that Russians are afraid of answering to polls, is a projection of intellectuals.

That's not what I said.

There are at least 3 factors in the fallacy of the poll results in Russia.

1. People with disagreeable opinions will refuse to take the poll. (Fear is one factor in this, most likely the deciding one, but not the only)
2. If people agree to take the survey, they may lie. (All people lie, even in relatively free societies. And they lie even more in authoritarian societies)
3. Faking or manipulating the results. ( Tampering with any results in Russia is common, both with elections and state sociology.)

Each of the three factors affects polling in Russia. And it is obvious to me why.

You haven't given a convincing argument as to why this or that is wrong. Maybe I misunderstood something, and if you have better arguments, I can agree.

Authoritarian societies are characterized by the things I wrote about above. I can't understand what your point is, that Russia is not an authoritarian state? Or that in spite of the fact that Russia is an authoritarian state, why does it drown in things that are characteristic of authoritarian states? Or what?
Lack of reasoning does not bring understanding to your position.

Quote from detail :

Working class and people without degree (that's ~66% of population) don't see the world like a 1984 story and aren't that paranoid. Pollsters say they often started to speak more to them, and those who oppose the official position too.

If you mean higher education (bachelor's degree) as it is called in russia then many of the working class in Russia have degrees, such as designers, engineers, technologists, and so on. Almost all such specialties require a higher education degree. Except for some janitors, cashiers, and so forth. And only those who do not have it 35% So it looks like your figure is taken from the ceiling. As we say in Russia.

And it’s not clear why you decided to take my separate take about the 1984 novel and pass it off as the universal position of all Russians or something, and as if passing it off as my position, you are replacing concepts, I didn’t talk about it. It's called the straw man fallacy.
I spoke about George Ourell's novel as an example to clarify my position .. If you ask 10 Russians what is happening in Russia, you can get 10 different answers. But this does not mean that, for example, most of them will not agree with certain aspects. for example, about the extremely high level of authoritarianism in Russia.
And for some reason you have decided that this part of the population "don't see the world like a 1984 story and aren't that paranoid" I doubt that there was a poll on this particular topic, but even if there had been, it does not invalidate what I said about false statistics based on polls in Russia.

Quote from detail :

Here's good article on this wishful thinking (you may try translating it with Google) written before the war by sociologist Lev Gudkov, who has been making polls since 1980s, and an interview with him. (Another one in English.)

First of all, referring to authority is not an argument.
Second, you don't seem to have read the article yourself, most of it talks about the failure of liberalism in Russia and explains the background and why it happened. Which I mostly agree with. But it is not clear why you referred to it here. I certainly can't call myself a liberal in the modern sense.
You don't need any articles to make an argument, they may be needed in an argument except to prove factual things.
Third, my native language is Russian...because I was born, raised and still live in Russia. I thought that the flag next to the name should be clear but you referred to the article in Russian and you suggest using an translator...

And if you wanted to make an argument about wishful thinking, then why can't I say the same for you? It's your lack of argument here. I am only talking about things that are characteristic of authoritarian and in particular totalitarian systems.


I like to study the history of my country (and not only), philosophy, and geopolitics. And I diligently avoid falling under any kind of propaganda. So yes.. I have some understanding of what is going on in my country.

Quote from detail :

There's a big debate among sociologists on whether or not they make questions correctly, and what kind of bias the methods have. So any layman's claim that this is just "not true" is just a sign of total ignorance. Like a football fan believing he knows better how to coach a team.

I agree, but it doesn't change what I said.

let's raise the level of discussion and after some thesis we will give arguments to this thesis so that it would be clear what we are talking about.

My argument is simple, Russia at the moment is an authoritarian and in many ways a totalitarian country, and what happens in such regimes is characteristic of such regimes. And the main thing is silence, people who do not agree are silent, because they can do nothing else if they do not want to fill the prisons. And Fear of the part of the population that understands the situation. But not only to that part of the population. The lack of rights and freedoms, too, is objectively visible to everyone, and if you are faced with a state in the form of the police or judicial system, then no one can expect justice, and most people understand this. Brainwashing also plays a role. So does the torture system in prisons. And the police state built by Putin which is ready to meet anyone even on a solitary picket.
The silovik in Russia is not the protector of citizens, but the owner of the monopoly of violence, ready to use this violence at any time. i mean we've literally gotten to the point where people are put in jail for making jokes. Fear is understandable, because authoritarianism is based on fear.

All this is a background that forms a special atmosphere. And shapes people. And then there is not just a question of when a person lies or tells the truth. But also, for example, when a person lies to himself.

And I don’t understand why you think that people from this system will decently do work that will show them wrong. It is likely that honest sociological surveys of the population are also being conducted, but if so, then they are not public.

Quote from FIZ :

If you do take ANY complain as offensive, as "being upset", you know why NOBODY ELSE is willing to do any criticism.

For you is perfect as it is SO IT SHOULD BE FOR ANYONE ELSE.
Good way to make people wanting to not say things out loud anymore.

There is difference between complaining and constructive criticism, and sorry, but your post feels very much like the first listed option.
If you come to me and say "I think your mod has wrong drag values" I'll check and if you're right, I'll appreciate your feedback.
But you come and say "I think your mod sucks because it is not frequently updated and doesn't have hundred of fancy skins". That is not constructive criticism, it is just expression of it not being up to your personal standards.

And I nowhere said it is perfect, I had to cut some corners to make it work and already have ideas on how to improve the next championship.

Quote from FIZ :

Very good mods have multiple changes, because they are refined. I can provide example since for you this is new.

For me hundreds of updates being the sign of high quality is definitely a new thing. Almost like I spent half a year building it offline just so I don't have to spam it hundred times to the world.

Quote from FIZ :

Formula category is very important.
More detailed skins are important.

I agree on the category part, however I have already explained why this car is not in the formula category (even if it was a difficult decision).
However I disagree with the desperate need for having fancy skins, I thought this 'game' is about physics simulation in first place, which is where I spent majority of my work at. The car has full skin support and plenty of great community-made skins emerged since then...

Quote from FIZ :

I absolutely am going to not partecipate to such a counter productive event, where the track is not existing, skins are just colours, people drive formulas using handbrakes.

Noone is forcing you to attend the event that had massive impact on the recent evolution of LFS, where tracks are highly accurate replicas of their real counterparts (even if we are essentially racing on a massive parking lot), where the field is very coulourful due to proper skin support,...

Seeing your concern over the singleseater with handbrake, I can imagine that if it was 2013 today, you would accuse me of making shit up, because there is no such thing as an electric-powered formula car and I make the game so 'unrealistic'.

Quote from FIZ :

What you missed in my post is that this mod is below acceptable condition to be included in a proper SIMULATIVE racing competition.
If you are not able to understand the word simulation, that's why you can't comprehend what I said.

Absolutely below acceptable condition indeed. In a world of mods lacking shadows, skin support, proper driver animation, having questionable physics, this one is clearly poorly done.

I think we have different opinion on what 'simulation' atually is.
You seem to feel that simulation is "an attempt to replicate something from the real world as closely as possible at all costs".
Meanwhile to me a simulation is a solution to a question of "what would happen if 'this' was done in the real world?" The simulation uses real-world physics equations and assumptions to tell us how such cars would behave if they did exist (EV singleseaters already exist and while there are not any with handbrake, it is still technologically possible even if no-one has done it and it definitely is not a reason why we should not be allowed to try it in this simulation).
In that case trying to comprehend what you are trying to say is pretty much impossible...

Or should I approach Kerbal Space Program developers and tell them to scrap their work because their imaginative in-game solar system is significantly downscaled and therefore inaccurate, unenjoyable and worthless?

Quote from FIZ :

Can you please do me an example of something on LFS more important than the bigger problems in the world?

Apparently a formula car with handbrake.

For those who may know, why when I use a VPN I still have a quick download, while in the comment from HeRRC people from Brazil may suffer from a very high downloading time ?
I tested with a VPN in Ecuador to connect to the US server, to have it sending back to the vpn server in Ecuador, then to me in France : operation done in few seconds on one mod ... how can it get worse in "local" ?

Quote from Scawen :

People in Asia, Oceania, North / South America, the incomplete files issue should be fixed so please try again with the new option and see if you get mods more quickly from the redirected locations. You will see a yellow redirect message if you are redirected.

If you enable Options... Misc - Allow HTTP redirect [EXPERIMENTAL]
Locations in Asia and Oceania should download mods from Japan
Locations in North and South America should download from USA

Tested with a VPN, and it is working fine like described

Quote from Scawen :

...
I didn't think it would bother anyone. After all, it's a simulator and is designed for use of an internal view. But apparently I was wrong. Maybe the speedo and tacho should be moved UP instead, when F9 or F10 is pressed?

Some were driving with the front wheel view in force mode to be quicker ... For the speedo-tacho positions, if in the future if it may be totally customizable, it would be nice (I rembmer assetto corsa proposing this). Not sure how upper you would want to move those indicators, but people actually concerned may have a more interesting point of view than mine.

Quote from Flotch :

A small issue I encountered : when running AI with mods on a new layout, everything computed and some lines are appearing on screen during the generation up to give a popup indicating that the path for AI has been built.
Then, if you 'cancel' the race instead of pressing 'start', the lines remain displayed on the menu => an auto clear would be welcome

I still have this minor fault in D19 ... in case it is easy to fix ...

...

Last edited by HOUSSEM.221B, Sat 19 Oct 2024, 17:07.

I have tested the 3 options, but each time there are some elevation changes (aston cadet mini 'eau rouge', 2nd split of South City sprint 2, etc...), it is ... difficult ... but that's part of the charm aswell !

Just bought an HP reverb G2 myself, and ... what to say ... it is just insane ! The headset looks indeed very great, but in LFS : what an experience !!! Scawen : it is just so wonderful and immersive !
I was expecting it to be great, but that is clearly overpassing my expectations by far ! And may the 1000Hz physics even improve the thing ? Sounds pure madness
I still have to admit that braking downhill is making me sick quickly (let's say elevation change in general), but anyway doing a lap or two is already so great !
South City 2.0 and its friends are welcome even more than ever now

Quote from Gutholz :

What message is it?

"Could not find default skin in data/skins/e.g.A5C5S7_DEFAULT.jpg"...
what i have done so far is make sure that all of my game files and editor files are in the same place in my folders.. then i duplicated the cars default skin. Then I renamed it with correct file name, tried converting the dds file to jpg, but the editor still can't find the files.
Do i need some sort of editing software like photoshop to help resolve the issue or is it just how my files are organized??
I appreciate the help )

Salut!

Well engine damage and gearbox speed are no longer needed. To me I would sacrifice tire thickness (we will guess it in F9 like in the past) to have a full insim version working with test patches or whatever version.

Or best of both world go insim and if version of LFS is supported show tire thickness, but do not crash if wrong version! Might be a bit too much "Usine a gaz"...

Quote from Tomfuel :

depending of the kind of track i think, if layout : no insim detector in many case, and so refresh is over

Well having layout to work would be A MA ZING (lazy was impressive with that)...
But having potential best refreshed at every sector on official tracks would be a great addition and less coding headache. I mean you do your best ever Sector1 and crash or quit in sector3, currently it will not show.

[quote="Gutholz;2037397"]Can you clarify what you mean by "coding the driver instead"?

AI is just a form of algorithms and math, like any other program code.
I have not seen LFS's code but generally AI in video games works like this:

The AI-code takes some data as input and outputs data as control.
In a racing game the input might be:
-car speed
-engine rpm
-car position
-track layout
-car properties (weight, condition of tires, center of gravity,...)
The more input data is taken into account, the more detailed the calculations can be.

and the output would be:
-steering wheel angle
-throttle position
-brake position
-all the other driving controls, like clutch, gearbox etc
Notice that for a non-cheating AI, this would be the same as for humans.

did you read the answer (just below your quoted message)...

...

Last edited by HOUSSEM.221B, Sat 19 Oct 2024, 17:09.

Can you clarify what you mean by "coding the driver instead"?

AI is just a form of algorithms and math, like any other program code.
I have not seen LFS's code but generally AI in video games works like this:

The AI-code takes some data as input and outputs data as control.
In a racing game the input might be:
-car speed
-engine rpm
-car position
-track layout
-car properties (weight, condition of tires, center of gravity,...)
The more input data is taken into account, the more detailed the calculations can be.

and the output would be:
-steering wheel angle
-throttle position
-brake position
-all the other driving controls, like clutch, gearbox etc
Notice that for a non-cheating AI, this would be the same as for humans.

To get from use "data input" to "controls output", there needs to be some AI program code. The more detailed this code is, the better/faster/life-like the AI driver will be.

There is an old 2D racing game called "RARS" that was not about driving but about programming AI that would drive the cars.

In this link someone briefly explains how his AI-driver worked:
https://rars.sourceforge.net/selection/felix.html

Also interesting, but more technical:
https://rars.sourceforge.net/help.html
click "Tutorial Part 1,2,3,etc"
It explains in more detail how to code an AI for that racing game. The basic principle should apply for LFS too, just that LFS physics are more complex.

Alright... seems like there are plenty of people answered, I just burst a bubble here...

Some years ago, I created this league: https://www.lfs.net/forum/thread/90352-MTDZX--Flat-Out%21-Series%21-Season-2-%28-CANCELLED%21-%29

I was not expecting to anyone joining... but managed to get somewhat alright amount of racers joined per race. Least amount was 4, Most one was 20+ ( at peak moment ).

The funny thing was, numbers were going even higher, but dropped down due 2 reasons:

1: Some inappropriate racing in honest manners.
2: Egos.

First one was clear as sky: Plenty of cheaters using any kind of program which back then managed to sneak out anticheat system. Unfortunately for them, I was already tested absolutely everything in any car back then, so finding these was no issue. Downside was, it dropped amount of participants, because they were banned.

Second thing was a bit odd, which frustrated me in two different occasional times. As LFS Community have these top tier racers, they had ultimately found this out, and was keen to try it out. Amusingly, they thought back then this was just boring full throttle stuff with no real skill involved, but as people happen to say; "truth is more wonderful than fiction".

I admit I was highly excited. Having some top tier racers to fully challenge some hardcore "flat outters"... only to find out it was nothing like that at all.

Turns out their ego couldn't handle enough of having a truth about someone less known is actually MUCH faster than those top tierers, as it was simply so much different type of racing. Setuping the car and knowing the layouts were completely different story, as not every layout was completely full throttle one. So, after they saw their limit ( which could had EASILY lift up in no time, but because it was official league, they didn't dare to do that on the go ), they just moved away. I remember one fellow guy told via TeamSpeak that his ego won't stand about losing, as ppl were 6-7 seconds faster... that was something he never expected ever to happen.

So yeah, I or we ( as a team back then ) managed to grab few, but the ultimate top never joined. This is from my perspective back then.

Nowadays, I have nearly completely moved off from LFS, that time is no longer for me. Although I still sometimes come checking things, even sometime starting LFS and having few laps, but that's that.

( Fun Fact: Cancellation was never about lack of racers, but rather lack of time and lack of technical interest. I have seen that interest has been coming back, but it is too late now. However, if someone is willing to make this kind of league, those layouts are still in these forums to download. Made by me and other people as well. )

i have created a new engine with more realistic exhaust and supercharger whine ... try it and if u love it plz update the current one has a rather strange supercharger whine.

as a student it was more convenient to play online from time to time ... now, it would require a bit too much time to achieve any capability to drive properly a given combo .
Taking a car with a kind of default setup and doing few laps anywhere is plenty of fun, but usually I have to end quickly for "family life" or so on => short cruise sessions are satisfying (even if I agree regarding the multiplayer aspect : doing short races of GTi in the time around Blackwood was insane )

Quote from Viperakecske :

Somewhat same applies to Flotch and others...havent played lfs in 10years time but still praising Scavier,no hate

lol, not playing online does not mean I do not play at all. I am even planning to buy a VR headset for my 40s coming in few days : and the goal is mainly only to use LFS with it ... no time to play frenzy, that's life, but I remain a fan of what LFS is bringing to me when I do few laps even against some AI

Quote from Scawen :

I do hear a lot of that. They download the latest version then say, wow this is so amazing for a 20 year old game.

What FIZ wrote, it looks old. I even personally prefer the LFS art style over too much glare/bloom/blink/perfect chrome, but most of the players & co. compare it with ACC, project cars and similar, and LFS looks and behaves very differently, instant load times, less photo realistic gfx, not available on regular channels like steam, no console versions, ... the easiest way to explain it to themselves is to assume this is 20 years old, and the obvious fact that 20 years ago this would be hyper realistic graphics doesn't strike them.

Maybe consider renaming the game with release of new gfx patch, like LFSS (how AC went ACC ). For example "Live For Speed Supercharged" or something like that. Leave almost everything else as is, maybe reshuffle demo cars and default cars, keep S1/S2/S3 licenses for long term LFS users... and I think this kind of people will be happy to think it was released in 2024 and not 20 years ago.

You have to play their game, at least a bit of it.

Degats: yeah, I get per-car-by-designer setting to normalize the ffb strength to be as intended (IIRC LFS does calculate FFB from suspension/tyres/... and there is no power steering mechanism countering that? I'm not sure, but that would be my guess how it works. So I guess you can somewhat tune mod ffb by suspension tuning, but that may go against other intended design. But also some cars/karts are considerably more difficult to drive in real life, real cars are not consistent either ).

My remark was for gu3st, as you can already adjust ffb on the fly with keys, so I'm confused what he's looking for.

Quote from Gabey1 :

There's been some ridiculous admin corruption happening on the JAR ingame server. Basically, a friend of the owner (turbofan), who's an admin has recently been banning people with no explanation, even came to banning another admin, and insulting two other admins. The server owner won't do anything about this since he's his friend or whatever, still trying to prove us 5-6 other admins wrong. We're not having it. Welcome to the new server. No BS. No admin corruption. Just freedom!

Coming soon, the Freedom Factory LFS server.

https://discord.gg/6SuNqkaW2M

Demagogue : (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demagogue):

A demagogue (...) is a political leader in a democracy who gains popularity by arousing the common people against elites, especially through oratory that whips up the passions of crowds, appealing to emotion by scapegoating out-groups, exaggerating dangers to stoke fears, lying for emotional effect, or other rhetoric that tends to drown out reasoned deliberation and encourage fanatical popularity.Demagogues overturn established norms of political conduct, or promise or threaten to do so.

From there we can connect to populism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populism)

(...)defines populism as an ideology which presents "the people" as a morally good force and contrasts them against "the elite", who are portrayed as corrupt and self-serving. (...)


@Slayer4712 U fall for a demagogic ad...

Check ur facts before spreading false narratives.
Those guys got angry because i banned one of their "friend" who felt above the rules, protected by a divine vip/clan member status.
Then they harass me for unfair ban. Talk me about corruption yes...

You can always dream, but the most common political system for uneducated ppl is clannism (wich connects to xenophobia). Kids dont build democracies.

This group of mutineers uses pervert practices and methods, u have a perfect example in the ad above, but u can add insults, defamation, coming on server to crash and spam their server ad, and even banning me as i didnt remove them from admin status.
Up to you if u think it's a good way to handle issues, I dont.

Springtime cleanup !