Quote from farcar :

I disagree with that. This community's attitude towards newcomers is very, very positive. Look in the beginner's forum for proof of that.
It's attitude towards people who make irreverent posts in the wrong forum however is understandably not so positive.

Yes... And in the beginner's forum you have the really obvious beginner questions... If we can help there, then why not just accept them on the entire forum?

This community has very racist tendencies, to put it very very very bluntly.
Newbies are fine as long as they stay in their own country. As soon as they move into our country they're met with hostility and ridicule. (not saying the lot of you are racist... Just trying to make a point).

Quote from tristancliffe :

If only it was Tagforce, if only it was...

*sighs*

I'm still hoping someone will actually answer the OPs question

Quote from wheel4hummer :

So, if my monitor has a refresh rate of 75hz, then Instead of using vsync i can just make the max framerate <75? From what I am understanding, at 30FPS the video card writes the frame on the framebuffer every 1/30th of a second. And, my monitor gets the image from the framebuffer every 1/75th of a second. So, I might be seing one frame 2 times on my monitor. But, if my framerate is >75hz, then that means without vsync, the monitor would read from the framebuffer where it was on the last frame, because the monitor does not know that it is a new frame.

Depending on how LFS handles a max FPS setting... Yes...
But I doubt LFS would sync to your monitor's v-sync if you set the max FPS to your refresh rate... So in essence, other than creating a default tearing point on your screen at maximum FPS I don't see much use for an fps limiter, monitor wise.

Quote from DEVIL 007 :

At least moderators could start moving the threads properly and people before posting could think a bite more wise.

(no need to be unfriendly towards the poster, though)

Quote from Gabkicks :

yeah lol just look up what the word race or racing means in the dictionary.

Race -
- an extended competition where the participants struggle like runners to be the winner (ie. the presidential race)

Racing -
- to move rapidly, or at top speed
- to compete (against) in a race

(but I doubt you meant these meanings)

Quote from tristancliffe :

What was the topic again? I've enjoyed reading these last posts, please carry on a bit longer until we remember the topic.

http://www.netopsystems.com/site/english/installer_e.html

Quote from Forbin :

It would seem to me that at least some people around here like a good technical discussion (the Bob Smiths and tristancliffes and colcobs of the community). Others are newbies who have questions, and there are those who like answering those questions.

On the other hand, I don't think many people here like threads that would be considered "self-pimping", such as this one. Starting a thread or post saying, "Hey! Look at me! Aren't I great?", is just asking for the responses you see above. We're not here to give you an ego boost, and certainly not when you blatantly ask for one.

Oh come on...
It's been said before, but I'll say it again anyway... If you don't like a thread or its subject... Don't post in it.

There's no reason to make anyone feel unwanted on these forums, other than to boost your own elite ego. This is rapidly becoming a very annoying trend here. Instantly bashing anything that is remotely different from what you like. There is an entire screenshots section, which' sole purpose is this "self-pimping" that you talk about...

Don't take this personally... I'm responding to your post, but I'm talking about a lot of people on these forums.

Either that, or I'm starting to see too much sarcasm on these boards.

Quote from thisnameistaken :

Such as? Any accident can be cleared in seconds in LFS.

CAN be cleared yes.... But since we want realism, the option of using a safety car for big turn 1 wrecks should be open. If I were to start a league, one of its rules would be:
7.81b - When you were in an accident, you are not allowed to reset the car, or enter the pits using shift-s or the menu option. You may try to drive back to the pits at low speed. If this is not possible, wait in the car until an admin tells you to spectate.

Besides, it's a lot better to have close racing when the drivers that did not make it through T1 without problems have a chance to catch up (or know they might get a chance to catch up).

What about rolling starts? Have a safety car in front of the pack, and let it enter the pits after 1 lap.

Quote from farcar :

Mods, please sticky this!

And now he feels ridiculed

Quote from george_tsiros :

"it is not racing" == "it is not the kind of racing that LFS tries to simulate."

i sense that there is a huge misunderstanding lurking here.

Yeah, the misunderstanding being that you (and loads of others) seem to know exactly what kind of racing LFS tries to simulate now and in the future...

On the official LFS site there's no mention whatsoever about the kind of racing being simulated. Just that it is a racing simulator. There was talk about a rally pack being released at some stage during development. However, there's no hint of rallying in the current release. So, who knows, maybe once there are more racing rules implemented, some subset of "drifting" rules will be added. Until S3 is finished we have no idea what will be added. The only thing that Victor said was that there will be no NOS implemented as it's about racing tuning, and not about pimp tuning.

Quote from jtr99 :

Danny, WTF is it with you and your urinary fascination?

On second thoughts don't answer that.

Oh, and while I'm here complaining, could the OP and some others please learn to spell "braking"? If it was an obscure word I'd understand and wouldn't call you on it, but to be a fan of a driving sim like LFS and not know how to spell the name of one of the pedals seems... odd to me.

The name of the pedal could be interpreted differently in different situations...
I call it my break pedal when I ram someone from behind because the bloody thing broke again.

Quote from DEVIL 007 :

did you notice this section....?

http://www.lfsforum.net/forumdisplay.php?f=8

I think he means people driving a safety car?

Anywho... doesn't solve the problem... By the time the safety car is deployed everyone would've passed the wreck. The discussion was about what to do when you wreck (either shift-s, or keep on wrecking and not move until the track is clear).

For a lot of other situations a safetycar is effective though. So once this is in "improvement suggestions" I'll +1 it anyway.

Quite welcome...
I was thinking of adding a couple of "frames" in images to show you what it would look like in reality, but after re-reading my post I think it's pretty clear.
If anybody wants a visual idea, just let me know, I'll post them.

Quote from XCNuse :

@tag
so if i am correct, your eye only sees what the refresh rate of the monitor is (as long as your FPS is over the refresh rate)

so.. if a game says you have 100fps, and your refresh rate is at 60Hz for example, you only see 60fps?
.. basically?

also, if that is so, would running a higher or lower refresh rate put any more or less stress on your computer? (since it has to 'update' the screen at whatever rate) or is that just way out of lines

Your monitor does not put any strain on the computer. It just displays whatever data is in the screenbuffer of the videocard at whatever refreshrate it is set. If your videocard supports a resolution at a certain refreshrate it simply means the screenbuffer is fast enough to provide those pixels at that speed (actually, to copy the size of the screenbuffer from its working memory to the screenbuffer and through to the monitor). That is the reason why the maximum refresh rate goes down the higher the resolution you want to display. Your card may support 1280x1024x32bpp at 100Hz, but it will only go to 85Hz @ 2048x1024x32bpp. It simply cannot provide the 2048*1024*4 bytes 100 times per second.
(same goes for monitors, btw. they need to be able to read that amount of data, which they sometimes simply can't... You can force a monitor to try it though, and basically you'll end up with a messed up image (or a message telling you "sync out of range"), or in very rare cases you find out that you can overclock your monitor and it does work, like mine support 2048x1536@60Hz, even though the monitor specs say 1600x1200@60Hz).

Basically you are correct... However (there's always a 'but')...
What your screen shows is actually a buffer on your videocard. Any data that is in there is what is shown on the screen. It polls this buffer from top-left to bottom-right line by line. If you have, say, 120fps then that means there's 120 images pumped into the buffer that show on your screen. If your monitor has a 60Hz refresh rate, that would mean the buffer gets overwritten halfway through the image. Your screen doesn't care about that and happily reads the new values and displays them. So what you get is half of the 1st image, and the lower half will be the new image. This causes "tearing".
Effectively your screen only gets updated (visually) 60 times per second, so you still have 60fps, even though your videocard is pumping out twice that (each of those 60 frames are two half images stuck together around halfway down the screen).
Since the vidcard is what ultimately tells the game how many images it pumps out, that's the fps you see ingame (120 in this case).

To solve the tearing, there is the option of "waiting for retrace". What this does is tell the videocard that it is only allowed to overwrite the screenbuffer when the cathode ray canon (which actually blasts your pixels on your screen) tells the card that it has finished drawing a screen, and is moving back to the top-left corner to start the next image. This takes a short amount of time and no pixels are actually displayed during that "retrace", so it is safe to dump the buffer. Now your vidcard will pump out a maximum fps that is equal or lower than the refresh rate of the screen, so your ingame fps will sync with your monitor's refresh rate (at 60, 70, 75, 100 etc).

Am I clear enough, or would you like a more detailed explanation?

EDIT:
Just to add that even though my example is static, not one single game produces these actual values on a 60Hz monitor. Basically in any game the fps fluctuates, and turning off V-sync (wait for retrace) ensures that the screenbuffer is always displaying the last known image (even if it's partially displayed). That is the reason why some people notice stuttering when they turn on v-sync. Suddenly there can be a (very very very) small delay between the data provided by the game, and the image you see. More over, this delay constantly changes (at one point the new image is dumped during a retrace, the next image may have to wait almost 1/60th of a second), which may very well cause the feeling of irregular framerates. In fact the fps is always 60, but the actual in-game expired time between any 2 frames may be different. Without v-sync you may have poor image quality, but the image data behaves more like a stream and seems more fluent.

Last edited by TagForce, Sat 12 Aug 2006, 23:10.

Quote from DEVIL 007 :

@Tagforce
except some TVs can run at 100Hz

And you still get only 50fps... They just refresh the screen twice as often.
I have no idea what they do in the US, but I'd imagine they'd be 120Hz there?
(unlike a movie theatre with a central light beaming the entire image, a CRT beams only 3 points at any one time. So to keep the image visible there must be a high refresh rate. 100Hz is just a means of keeping a more steady image, nothing to do with framerates)

Quote from bw_krupp :

I know nothing about this subject except for what I've read. And what I've read is that recent research has shown that it makes a difference what kind of frames you're seeing per second. The human eye can see a noticeable difference in fps on a CRT between 60 and 120 (and some can even detect the differences up to 200 fps) because of the way a CRT works. The article I read on this was pretty in depth but basically pointed out that 60 fps is a minimum for the average human. But that some can detect over 200 fps. So more still is better. Btw, I average 100 fps steady no matter what happens on the track etc., or whether I'm encoding DVDs or not.

Yes, for the exact reason I just said. Also, did you know that people who can spot flickering at higher refreshrates are also more likely to be colorblind? But there is a difference between refreshrates and frames per second. If someone tells you they can spot the difference between 100 and 200 fps on a 100Hz screen, they are lying. The screen only displays 100 frames per second, so there is absolutely no difference at all between a steady 100fps or 200fps output (the computer draws one image that does not show on screen at any time). The only difference they should be able to spot is tearing, which would make them want to go to 100fps because the images look better that way.

Quote from Honey :

no but, retina works like a low-pass filter and frames are the source digital signal, for those who knows the shannon theorem, this is similar...in few words: images persist on the retina for few moments, if another image comes before the previous image is "disappeared" from retina, then the eye sees them continuosly and more smoothly as much closer the two images come.
science says that human eye has its threshold at 50Hz (50 fps) but also says that this is not a crisp limit, the more fps you get the more stable and fluid you see, i'd say that above 100fps it becomes too unoticeable, but having 100fps makes it more smooth...that's the same reason why running crt monitors at 85Hz or above is good for eyes health...

Yup, you're right... But there's more to it than that...
On the rear-end of the eyeball there are a lot of nerves that pick up light.
Part of these (in the center directly behind the iris) are very good at picking up colors. And there are others which only detect light/dark (black and white if you will). These black/white recepticles (spelling?) are very fast at doing what they do, and can change at a rate of about 60 times/sec. The color ones in the middle don't get much better than 30 times/sec. Since these 2 are not completely in sync your b/w and color recepticles aren't constantly seeing the same image, so the faster you can switch the actual image, the more fluent this image seems to be. For television, there's a so called 25fps system in place (or 29.97 fps in NTSC areas). In fact, you're shown 50 frames per second (or 60 in NTSC areas, as your power is 60Hz). 25 is enough for the color recepticles to watch a rather fluent movement, but the b/w ones would see screenflips. So TV is interlaced. Showing you one half of the image first, and then the other half, so that the percepted (or seen) refresh rate is actually 50. In cinemas you're being fooled as well... 25fps movies (europe) are actually shown at 50fps (each frame is shown twice slightly offset, which is why there always is a hint of blurring).

To test this you can set your screen to 60Hz refresh rate, and open Word with a fully white page. Stare at the center of the screen, and you'll notice that it doesn't flicker in the center. Now, while still staring at the center of the screen, focus on the sides of the screen, and you'll notice that that flickers. Up to a refresh rate of 75Hz you can notice some flickering when you turn your eyes away from the screen and have the screen at the edge of your vision... Also notice that when the screen is at the edge of your vision it becomes impossible to discern any color and the image turns to b/w.

Quote from Victor :

yeah i figured there might be special sized nics for rack servers. Anyway, it's weekend again now, so no progress or news until monday when i'll be whipping the isp guys again.

ps our servers are self built

Cool... But I'd seriously consider moving towards a branded server when these need replacing. Yes, they're a bit more expensive, but from experience, the support you get (in terms of software options, and hardware repair) is worth the extra few $.

If you need a NIC, just lemme know... I might be able to sneak a couple of LP (low profile) 3com 1Gb NICs out of the office.

Quote from Victor :

Our servers did get a successful doubling of memory, but the actual problem we were looking for was not fixed still.

The problem is network errors on our upload connection (server -> clients). Tried we have :

-changed the switch we're hookup up to
-changed network cable
-our server has 2 network ports onboard - tried both

... and the problem still remains. So we're starting to fear the worst case, which is a faulty network chip on the motherboard. If that's so, we may need to replace the motherboard, if the ISP peeps can't put in a separate network card (problem is the server is a 2 unit high box - no room for regular cards).
So as you can see, it's a nasty problem and that's the reason it's taking a while unfortunately. But of course we're not giving up. The server simply has to work well, so if a mobo replacement is needed, then that's what we'll do eventually.

What servers you have running? You should be able to get SFF Nics without problems (most regular NICs for servers come with 2 brackets, a regular and an SFF). However, if the server is HP, IBM, or Dell, then getting them to replace the MB would be cheaper if there was on-site warranty on them (and easier, no reconfig needed).

EDIT: If it's a HP, it might also be a faulty networking teaming setup... If it's not setup, set it up for redundancy... In case one NIC or cable fails, it has failover to the other without downtime

Quote from carboy280 :

Hi,
Does anyone know what programme(s) to use when changing the front of a car (eg the toyota ae86 front end(lights grill etc) on the xrt)

As far as I know they are just cleverly made textures... Look for LFS textures on google.

Quote from tristancliffe :

I never said it "directly relates to". I think my dry humour and satirical nature gets lost in translations.

When I meant was that the only people who use NOS in real life are the same type of people who drive with one hand at the top of their steering wheel, turn the music up high so they can't hear what any part of the car is doing, recline their seat so that their arm is straight, fit huge intercoolers to increase the lag, fit a bodykit to slow down any advantage to their 'engine tuning', weigh the car down with ICE, lower and stiffen the car randomly (i.e. without paying the slightest attention to suspension movement and geometry or the unsprung/sprung masses etc etc etc.

People who do this clearly aren't the cleverest people. If they were they wouldn't. And thus it befits to say that they have a lower than average IQ. And they probably wear baseball caps (a good sign in my experience).

You just described me...
Except that I did not lower nor stiffen the car yet, and the ICE is still in the shed, needing some final touches.

Would this make my car be faster than your car? I don't know... Don't care, either. I'm having fun doing it. Not to mention the attention you get from random people in the streets (yes, including but not limited to women).

All I need now is a lambo-door system, and a NOS kit, just for the purge system... Because it looks cool. Maybe could use air-ride too, because the speedbumps are killing me.


(and no, I'm way above average for IQ, and I don't wear baseball caps)

Quote from Fonnybone :

You don't know what 'people running this forum want'. You are making assumptions based on nothing
at all. When i talked about wrecking i was reffereing to threads about iDi. Stop turning this into a
human rights violation based on very few and vague words. You obviously didn't understand what i
meant, or even try. I'll try to be clearer.

No, I don't know what you want... I know what you should want, and all I can hope for is that is exactly what you want. You never mentioned iDi, but you specifically mention wrecking. I can't read your thoughts, especially not when all I have to go on is what you write. Even so... If a thread about iDi is *not* turned into a feeding frenzy (which never happens) for flamers, then I don't see the harm in that either, but that's my opinion.

Quote :

Ahh pleeeaaaaase

Like i said there was a few threads about it already and by the time this
one showed up, the devs were already informed. As soon as one was
removed another popped up, i just left this one so you guys could let
it all out before you send the UN after me.

Like you said where?
You never gave us any explanation here (unless there's some moderation system that doesn't allow me to view posts below a certain grade).

Quote :

What amuses me is that not only am i not the one who removed the
other threads, i'm the one who left this one here with an explanation.
Talk about double-standard. I never said to stop posting in this thread
(why didn't i lock it then ?!), what i asked was to stop making new
threads about it and to send such info directly to the mods or devs.

Again... The only post you made that actually had content was

Quote from Fonnybone :

Mmm, ya, i'd need you to go ahead and stop posting this. M'kay ?
That'd be greeaaaaat.


This has already been reported to the devs and we'd appreciate if you'd
send such information to a forum moderator instead (via PM) or to the
devs directly instead of publicly like this.

Where can I read that you:
A) already know of several closed threads on the same subject?
B) left this one here so we could "let it all out before sending the UN after you"?

You only stated that this matter was already reported to the devs, and that in future we should send this to a forum mod, or the devs, instead of posting it on the forum...

You have the right to censor us, and you have the right to remove threads or make us shut up about certain topics. But even if you do, those actions still do not belong on a forum like this, in a community like this. The main problem is that some threads that I don't think should be allowed to continue (like the NOS thread that has been off-topic since it was opened and turned into namecalling after 2 posts) are still open, and obvious 'demo user' bashing is fine too (every thread started by a demo user is met with hostility), yet it seemed to me that discussing a useless cheat is forbidden.

I'm sorry if I come across like a thickheaded SOB, who is undermining your authority and credibility. Such is not my intention. It's just that I've seen plenty of larger communities (50000 members+) go down the drain because of bad management or moderation, and I'm not about to let that happen to LFS. Not only does that mean you should be clear about what threads you will close or not, but it also means enforcing the forum rules.

Pffjewww... I think I'm done ranting... Oh, and this is nothing personal towards you, FB, just that you stepped right into the line of fire when the gun went off.

Since this is all grossly off-topic... I'd suggest if you want to continue this, use the PM function.

Funny how there's 5 pages of replies that are off-topic...

We've all been over this a million times already, and every time I lean more and more towards adding the option of Nitrous to LFS, simply because the ones that don't want it can't stop calling the people that do want it: stupid, idiots, ignorant, 12-y-o, morons, etc etc.

This thread was about an installer... Not about the Nitrous-Oxide Systems in cars.

Quote from Victor :

edit - now confirmed it was a cheat. Unrelated to the multiplayer thing from earlier though. That's partly the reason why we didn't move this thread out of the public's eye like the multiplayer ones. Hotlapping is something else and can be dealt with fast. Online cheats can also be dealt with, but not in the same fashion and speed. That is why multiplayer cheat threads are removed once we notice them. We then know about them. Doesn't have anything to do about freedom of speech (or double standard for that matter) for those of you who always bring that forward as some reason for not allowing us to (re)move a thread.

Not saying you're using a double standard... I said that what fonnybone said was a double standard (and it is). And if multiplayer cheat threads are removed (to which I can agree, partially), then why didn't fonnybone delete this thread, because he obviously believed this one should not exist on the forum. If he can't delete threads, he should inform you about the thread, and not try to persuade us to stop posting in it. Like his own request, do not post on the forum but mail or PM a dev.

On the other hand, if an online cheat is found, then anyone using the cheat on public servers will soon be banned and reported. If only people knew there was a cheat out, and the symptoms were clear, then that could help you in finding a solution. Just because the general public knows there's a cheat doesn't mean the general public will use the cheat, especially if they don't know where to find it. But that is your choice for dealing with it, and I can respect that.


Oh, and thanks for fixing this issue

Quote from tristancliffe :

Cersorship can belong here as long as the people who run it want it to be here. This is not an open forum, but an owned forum where people can control the things we are allowed to talk about. There is no such thing as free speech.

If you don't like it (and this isn't actually directed towards any one) then don't visit/post here.

I have no problem with them moderating these forums... I will even actively participate in any cover-up that is for the benefit of the community or LFS in general.

However, a thread informing people of a cheat is no risk to the community especially when that cheat was discovered from an uploaded hotlap (which is publically available). Secondly, if they want to censor talk about cheats, they should delete the threads. If they leave them on here, then there's no purpose in trying to shut us up. If they can't delete threads, then the people who run this forum apparantly don't want any censorship by mods.
Fonnybone said they don't encourage cheats, just like they don't encourage wrecking. Yet threads about wreckers are left alone, and threads about cheats are always met with the standard "shut up about it" post. That's a double standard.

Quote from Fonnybone :

Apparently not.

According to the memo we don't encourage acts of cheating just like we don't encourage wrecking and so on.

Yet, apparently we may speak freely about wrecking, and any ensuing flamewars are not dealt with in a timely fashion, but when a cheat is mentioned you make a point of telling us to not talk about it?

That is wrong on so many levels. And don't even start about it being dangerous to the online experience, because it isn't. Nobody gives a flying f*** about clearly cheated hotlaps, and the whole LFSW site is monitored for just these kinds of things. If something like this is spotted, then there's an investigation into what caused it to work, and subsequently gets patched quickly, and any abusers get their license revoked.

Last time I checked this forum was not run by the chinese or US governments... Censorship does not belong here.